Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Yes I believe I am...... maybe also everyone who has ever made an international transfer into a Thai Bank, or submitted a Non-Imm Permission Extension application, that included banking details.

Good Points.  All Expats are potentially on their radar.  If this goes 'pear-shaped' and Expat remittances are going to checked for applicable income taxation (and check if a tax return has been completed), then unless we can provide 'acceptable proof' (to Thai RD) that taxes have already been paid on all our remittances, then the Thai RD could decide we have to pay the applicable income tax in Thailand.  I wonder who will they target first and nail to the cross - IF this goes ahead as it currently stands - as per the media reports and opinions publkished over the weekend.  I cannot tell - is this a mountain or molehill??  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I can see the potential for Immigration to require confirmation of taxes paid/tax return filed, before a long term visa is extended, I think that's a very real possibility.

That is exactly what that the lawyer/accountant said to me would happen in the near future.  He has been in Thailand for a long time (now a Thai Resident) and stated that many years ago that was the deal for all Expats, but now it is only applied to those Expats that work and earn an income in Thailand (employee or a business).    

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

All my income qualifies under Article 20 US-Thai DTA and cannot be taxed in Thailand.

You will still (IF this goes ahead) be required to lodge an income tax return, declaring exactly what you have said above. If the Thai RD agrees with you, they will issue you a tax certificate/clerance.  Or they might disagree and send you a bill ???? 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

After reading above sherrings.com article and disregarding any possible DTA exclusions am I correct in saying the article is saying only the amount of assessable (taxable) income you "remit", repeat, remit to Thailand would be taxable if you are a Thailand tax resident?

 

Example: say a person who stays in Thailand for at least 180 days per year and is considered a Thailand tax resident has a total foreign source income of $100K with that total income being from foreign wages (work), dividends, savings, capital gains, rent, maybe even pensions, etc.,  BUT, repeat, BUT only remits $10K of that $100K to Thailand during the tax year then only that remitted $10K is taxable by Thailand and not the entire $100K?    OR, is the entire $100K taxable assuming there are no exclusions (like a DTA) to shield it from taxes? 

 

That is a complicated question that no one here really knows the answer to in regards to the future change. Maybe you should ask an accountant/lawyer for advice - they will probably be able to give a reasonmable answer now - but until the Thai RD provides all the details regardiung this change, no one definitively knows.

[JimTripper]

I wonder if the thai tax authorities will remit info to the irs in the usa, regarding taxation, like they do now with bank accounts?

 

That could lead to audits. The irs loves to pick on expats, offshore accounts and bank accounts with foreign addresses.

Edited October 9, 2023 by JimTripper

[jerrymahoney]

24 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I think the perfect word for the opposite of “fearmongering” is something like apathetic or complacent. Apathetic, adj: showing no interest or energy, or unwilling to take action, especially over something important. Fear-mongers make a mountain out of a molehill, and apathetes make a molehill out of a mountain.

Fearmongering is when you enjoy getting a rise out of someone for something you post that may or may not be correct.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Good Points.  All Expats are potentially on their radar.  If this goes 'pear-shaped' and Expat remittances are going to checked for applicable income taxation (and check if a tax return has been completed), then unless we can provide 'acceptable proof' (to Thai RD) that taxes have already been paid on all our remittances, then the Thai RD could decide we have to pay the applicable income tax in Thailand.  I wonder who will they target first and nail to the cross - IF this goes ahead as it currently stands - as per the media reports and opinions publkished over the weekend.  I cannot tell - is this a mountain or molehill??  

Whilst you have raised some valid and important points in the past, you now seem to have lost perspective. An announcement of this nature is classic Thai officialdom, let's get the news out there now and we'll work out the details in due course, if we have to backtrack at some point we'll just let it quietly die. That has happened numerous times before in my 25 years here and it will continue to do so.

 

Once again, all that is happening is that Thailand is attempting to become a fully paid up member of CRS Reporting and fall in line with international standards on taxation, it's in their best interests to do this. It will take some time before things become clear so everyone must sit back, relax and wait. Assuming worst case and that everyone is out to kill us, isn't helpful. I don't believe for one moment that every incoming remittance will be checked for tax compliance. But I do believe that increasingly larger number of tax returns will be scrutinised to see if inbound transaction reported to them previously, are being declared. I also believe that more people will be instructed to file tax returns and the tax clearance letter may be the vehicle to enforce this, it is/was in the US. The RD is not interested in pursuing large numbers of foreign retirees for small amount of tax on remitted income. If a case happens to fall into their laps they will certainly enforce the rules but retirees are not the targets in all of this, that is not to say that their wont be some collateral damage, there usually is. 

 

We've all been warned, starting 1 January 2024, all inbound transactions have the potential to be scrutinised for tax in the way I described earlier. Now would be a good time to import savings or at least, bring their importation forward to before 1 January 2024. Between now and next year there's plenty of time for things to be clarified which I'm certain they will be. But I don't expect t see any farangs on crosses, lining the road, only paranoid people would think that.

[jerrymahoney]

13 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

You will still (IF this goes ahead) be required to lodge an income tax return, declaring exactly what you have said above. If the Thai RD agrees with you, they will issue you a tax certificate/clerance.  Or they might disagree and send you a bill ???? 

Thanks Mr. Australia.

[Pib]

9 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

That is a complicated question that no one here really knows the answer to in regards to the future change. Maybe you should ask an accountant/lawyer for advice - they will probably be able to give a reasonmable answer now - but until the Thai RD provides all the details regardiung this change, no one definitively knows.

The sherrings.com article seems clear and they are accountants/tax folks.  

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

That is a complicated question that no one here really knows the answer to in regards to the future change. Maybe you should ask an accountant/lawyer for advice - they will probably be able to give a reasonmable answer now - but until the Thai RD provides all the details regardiung this change, no one definitively knows.

NO it is not, the RD have stated their position on this and the Sherrings link quotes the head of the Revenue.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

16 minutes ago, MJCM said:

I wonder how the RD going to deal with this situation

I am still too young to get a Pension and just live of Savings (sold my house etc etc many moons ago) and I am not a registered Citizen in my Home Country any more. Most of my assets (accounts) are still there though.

Money for Immigration is in a Fixed Deposit account since ages and I just transfer money in (declared as living expenses) once in a while (when we need it).

But just to be on the safe side I will stay (in 2024) out of Thailand for approx 6 months at least till the dust settles.

If this goes ahead as it currently stands (not details) the pundits are saying that the interest you earned on your savings is potentially taxable while you are a tax resident of Thailand. The issue of when it is taxable - remittance - in that year - partial or fully when remitted - is all very complicated. 

Example - you live in Thailand 100% of the year and earn money from overseas assets - but you do not bring any of that money into Thailand in that year.  The 'old' rule says you have no tax liability even though you are a tax resident.  So people would bring that money in 1-2 years later - no tax.  The 'new' rules means that those earnings you made in the past years you were a tax resident are now taxable - no matter how long later when you bring that money into Thailand. It starts as of the Thai Tax year 2024 - Jan 1 to Dec 31. Any earnings made overseas in that year are taxable in Thailand - now and in the future.

But there is hope that they will make exemptions for long term retiree/married Expats (and others) on those  earnings made in savings etc - but it will probably not be exempted from earning on investments (property, shares, etc.).  

[Pib]

3 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

I wonder if the thai tax authorities will remit info to the irs in the usa, regarding taxation, like they do now with bank accounts?

 

That could lead to audits. The irs loves to pick on expats and offshore accounts and international transfers.

As long as you have been submitting annual returns to the IRS on your worldwide income like interest earned from Thai bank accts or other income earned in Thailand why worry about it.   Plus, I doubt such close country-to-country tax return reporting will occur for a long time.  Yes there is some level of income info supposedly being exchanged between countries already or soon but it seems to be primarily bank acct interest earned info.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

6 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Fearmongering is when you enjoy getting a rise out of someone for something you post that may or may not be correct.

No - that is trolling - maybe look up Webster/Collins.

Example - Is English your first language. That is being a troll.  

[Celsius]

37 minutes ago, MJCM said:

I am still too young to get a Pension and just live of Savings (sold my house etc etc many moons ago) and I am not a registered Citizen in my Home Country any more. Most of my assets (accounts) are still there though.

 

Yea.... if this nonsense ever gets the green light you will be the type of expat who is in the most screwed category.

[atpeace]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Correct.

 

 

and if you have a foreign credit card and use it for most your monthly expenses Lazada, big c, etc) and many other options to almost eliminate international bank transfers...

[Sheryl]

40 minutes ago, MJCM said:

I wonder how the RD going to deal with this situation

 

I am still too young to get a Pension and just live of Savings (sold my house etc etc many moons ago) and I am not a registered Citizen in my Home Country any more. Most of my assets (accounts) are still there though.

 

Money for Immigration is in a Fixed Deposit account since ages and I just transfer money in (declared as living expenses) once in a while (when we need it).

 

But just to be on the safe side I will stay (in 2024) out of Thailand for approx 6 months at least till the dust settles.

 

https://aseannow.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=940349&key=652a2822f134d0711b1645dd1f24dd03 418.36 kB · 18 downloads

 

Answers to questions 5, 6 and 9 clearly state that savings transferred to Thailand that are from income earned before becoming a Thai resident are not assessable.

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

Yea.... if this nonsense ever gets the green light you will be the type of expat who is in the most screwed category.

Not if his savings are from income earned before he became resident in Thailand. Accoring to the RD this is not assessable income.

 

It is people with current income from work abroad, property rentals, interest, dividends etc that are going to be most affected by this.

[hotandsticky]

43 minutes ago, MJCM said:

 

 

But just to be on the safe side I will stay (in 2024) out of Thailand for approx 6 months at least till the dust settles.

 

 

How sad that you let bu11sh1t like this control your movements (so to speak). 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Whilst you have raised some valid and important points in the past, you now seem to have lost perspective. An announcement of this nature is classic Thai officialdom, let's get the news out there now and we'll work out the details in due course, if we have to backtrack at some point we'll just let it quietly die. That has happened numerous times before in my 25 years here and it will continue to do so.

 

Once again, all that is happening is that Thailand is attempting to become a fully paid up member of CRS Reporting and fall in line with international standards on taxation, it's in their best interests to do this. It will take some time before things become clear so everyone must sit back, relax and wait. Assuming worst case and that everyone is out to kill us, isn't helpful. I don't believe for one moment that every incoming remittance will be checked for tax compliance. But I do believe that increasingly larger number of tax returns will be scrutinised to see if inbound transaction reported to them previously, are being declared. I also believe that more people will be instructed to file tax returns and the tax clearance letter may be the vehicle to enforce this, it is/was in the US. The RD is not interested in pursuing large numbers of foreign retirees for small amount of tax on remitted income. If a case happens to fall into their laps they will certainly enforce the rules but retirees are not the targets in all of this, that is not to say that their wont be some collateral damage, there usually is. 

 

We've all been warned, starting 1 January 2024, all inbound transactions have the potential to be scrutinised for tax in the way I described earlier. Now would be a good time to import savings or at least, bring their importation forward to before 1 January 2024. Between now and next year there's plenty of time for things to be clarified which I'm certain they will be. But I don't expect t see any farangs on crosses, lining the road, only paranoid people would think that.

Ditto - your points made are also often very accurate. However, now you have descended into the 'she'll be right mate" No Problemo Mode.  And by all means you can do that - but may I suggest this comment of yours should be examined by yourself in self reflection:  " It will take some time before things become clear so everyone must sit back, relax and wait."

We must not do anything you say Mike - you give your views - others give theirs - and people make up their own minds.  Maybe I am wrong - but I have never told anyone what they MUST do - only what I think might happen and why I think that might happen.  What I always have done and always will do, is plan for worst case and best case scenarios. IMO anyone that only plans for best case scenarios and rubbishes those that dont, is like someone not wearing a helmet riding a bike in Thailand. It is up to you, and I hope it all goes well for you, but IMO that is unwise - because if something goes wrong, it could go very wrong. 

[Celsius]

2 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

How sad that you let bu11sh1t like this control your movements (so to speak). 

 

You know what is BS? You lining up for an annual visa extension like a beggar and doing 90 day reports like a criminal while being required to file a tax return. 

 

For that, I pay and file in a country that gives me the actual benefits.

 

[hotandsticky]

Just now, Celsius said:

 

You know what is BS? You lining up for an annual visa extension like a beggar and doing 90 day reports like a criminal while being required to file a tax return. 

 

For that, I pay and file in a country that gives me the actual benefits.

 

More BS!

[FritsSikkink]

18 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

It starts as of the Thai Tax year 2024 - Jan 1 to Dec 31. Any earnings made overseas in that year are taxable in Thailand - now and in the future.

 

From what I read the rule starts Jan-1 -2024. Tax info for 2023 must be filled during the first part of 2024, normally the forms are not available at the start of Januari.

Not clear to me if it applies to income from 2023 or 2024.

[atpeace]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

Not if his savings are from income earned before he became resident in Thailand. Accoring to the RD this is not assessable income.

 

It is people with current income from work abroad, property rentals, interest, dividends etc that are going to be most affected by this.

How would Thailand differentiate if transfers are from past or current earnings.  Also, how would Thailand have any idea of what I earned in dividends?  They can't access my USA tax records.  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

24 minutes ago, Pib said:

The sherrings.com article seems clear and they are accountants/tax folks.  

The Thai RD has not provided any details - Sherring et al can only provide their advice on what they know now. 

There are plenty of good articles on the web about this matter - including Thai media organisations - it is a concern and they are all seeking clarifications.  Hopefully they will provide that sooner rather than later.  As some experienced Expats have said, they will probably eventually sort this out. But from what I have seen, the Thai Govt will only change is there is a lot of 'negative feedback' - which this forum is only a small part of. 

[Sheryl]

37 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

You will still (IF this goes ahead) be required to lodge an income tax return, declaring exactly what you have said above. If the Thai RD agrees with you, they will issue you a tax certificate/clerance.  Or they might disagree and send you a bill ???? 

The change will go ahead, that is not in doubt.

 

Whether expat retirees will be made to file returns even when they have no assessable income (and if so, how strictly that will be enforced) remains to be seen.

 

I would hope that if that does happen,  there will be accountants or agents versed in DTAs etc able to do the paperwork for us and provide any needed certificates. From my past dealings with my provincial RD (who among other things believe there is no such thing as retirement visa or extension, all farangs must be working here, and other nonsense) trying to file on my own would be a disaster even though all my remittances to Thailand are very clearly non-assessable under the DTA.

 

As a matter of curiosity, does anyone know if the Thai tax code requires people who owe no tax to still file a return? Certainly most Thais in that situation seem not to do this. Neither do migrant workers, and even though here on explicit work visas there is no requirement for them to show tax clearance documents to extend.

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

26 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

NO it is not, the RD have stated their position on this and the Sherrings link quotes the head of the Revenue.

You can believe whatever you want Mike - so can I.  Read yesterday's and today's BP articles - just for starters.

[MJCM]

22 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

If this goes ahead as it currently stands (not details) the pundits are saying that the interest you earned on your savings is potentially taxable while you are a tax resident of Thailand. The issue of when it is taxable - remittance - in that year - partial or fully when remitted - is all very complicated. 

Thx.

 

I have looked and checked over 2022 the interest and stock gains are less then the RD 150.000 THB  exempt and then I also have 60k (I believe) extra because I am married.

 

Will still go out of the country for at least 6 months to be on the safe side.

[noobexpat]

2 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

All my income qualifies under Article 20 US-Thai DTA and cannot be taxed in Thailand.

No doubt ...but you've arrived at the conclusion and ignored the annoying paperwork process to get there.

 

1. Receive tax return request

2. Establish conflict of interest to determine taxing rights.

3. Refer to DTA 

4. Complete tax return

5. Wait for local tax office agreement 

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

From what I read the rule starts Jan-1 -2024. Tax info for 2023 must be filled during the first part of 2024, normally the forms are not available at the start of Januari.

Not clear to me if it applies to income from 2023 or 2024.

See point 3 at the bottom of the page in the link below. The new rules apply to funds imported from 1 January 2024 onwards.

 

https://sherrings.com/assessable-income-foreign-sources-thailand.html

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

How sad that you let bu11sh1t like this control your movements (so to speak). 

True, but 10 out of 10 for the word play.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Mike Lister