Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, stat said:

No offense but maybe you should read more and post less ...

 

Maybe if you are the expert tax consultant you say you are, you should answer concisely and precisely the questions raised by Cyclist and Jim Gant and put them out of their misery .

[Mike Lister]

15 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

It is OK to just admit that you do not know the answer.

 

I have seen reference to DTA's being respected. This does not answer if I am legally obliged to file a ' Nil ' tax return.

Try asking the tax expert, poster stat,  although I think that nobody can help you, you're beyond help.

Edited January 8 by Mike Lister

[freeworld]

45 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

It is OK to just admit that you do not know the answer.

 

I have seen reference to DTA's being respected. This does not answer if I am legally obliged to file a ' Nil ' tax return.

The tax code shows if you have income over a certain amount then a tax return should be filed?

 

The DTA is only a mechanism to clarify taxing rights, exclude certain incomes and avoid double taxation.

 

Edited January 8 by freeworld

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, stat said:

Sorry man apparently you do not want to understand that this is possible in most countries. The interpretation of a law changed and therefore it is considered to NOT be retroactively. Happened in Germany a lot of times, of course always in tax laws benefitting the state.

First let's establish one thing. 

I am honest in asking 'cause I don't know.

Was there a law in Thailand that we had to do the things they now say we have to do , but they did not enforce it?  If there was my bad. 

But if there was a law that was not requiring to do the things they now ask us to do  , And I say that because it is not entirely clear what specifically they require of my as it pertains to this issue. 

And now they interpret it  differently , it is a change in the law. 

before it was not required, now it is. Two different things. 

New law, new interpolation of and old law , divine inspiration etc.  Are all semantics , Orwellian doublethink, the consequence is one.

Before it was not, and now it is. 

I

 

 

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, freeworld said:

The tax code shows if you have income over a certain amount then a tax return should be filed?

 

What tax code ?
 

Yes, I totally get that assessable income over a certain threshold a tax return should be filed.

 

There is a big grey area surrounding non assessable income / income covered by a DTA and whether this requires a tax return filed in Thailand

[freeworld]

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

What tax code ?
 

Yes, I totally get that assessable income over a certain threshold a tax return should be filed.

 

There is a big grey area surrounding non assessable income / income covered by a DTA and whether this requires a tax return filed in Thailand

If you are tax resident in Thailand the Thai tax code.

 

Does the Thai tax code state assessable income covered in a DTA is excluded from reporting it?

Edited January 8 by freeworld

[The Cyclist]

I will also repost this from @Shoeless Joe, posted on the other thread.

 

Quote

2) I asked the RD if I needed to pay income tax on the pension money I transferred to Thailand from the UK. It was explained thus: The RD is only interested in taxing income from money earnt in Thailand OR  money brought into Thailand on which tax has not already been paid. My pensions which are taxed at source in the UK, are (according to the RD) NOT eligible to be taxed in Thailand principally because of the existing DTA agreement. Apparently I have 'non-assessable income'. The RD officers were incredibly helpful (apparently I was the first person to ask about the income tax changes).

 

However, it does not answer the question as to whether a ' Nil ' tax return has to be filed.

[noobexpat]

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Here is the idiots guide for foreigners

 

https://iao.bangkok.go.th/storage/files/Personal Income Tax.pdf

 

I cannot cut and paste from the document, but the opening paragraph says

 

" In general, a person liable for PIT, has to compute his tax liability,  file a tax return and pay tax, if any, accordingly on a calender year basis "

 

So the question I have asked repeatedly, If you only remit income that can only be taxed in Country X, Y or Z, as expressed in a DTA, and therefore have no liability for PIT, do you still need to file an annual tax return ?
 

Pay a tax expert isn't an answer, although I will concede it is a possible solution

 

Unless it specifically states you don't. Then assume you do.

Why is that so difficult to figure out??

 

 

Edited January 8 by noobexpat
.

[Mike Lister]

14 minutes ago, noobexpat said:

 

Argumentative numpty.

The blue collar folk should stick with what they do best.

 

Aint that the truth, he's the source of a lot of the confusion and major reason for this thread going round in endless circles.

[UKresonant]

3 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

When every farang in country has a file that delineates, and can be possessed by RD:

 

1. Been in country for an amalgamated number of days exceeding, or equal to, 180

2. Visa held is NOT an LTR

3. Pensions direct deposited to Thailand are NOT subject to exclusivity of home country (like, RD is going to know all the language of 60 DTAs -- yeah, right).

4. Monies wired, or ATMed, to Thailand are NOT from a bank account established, and contributed to, before Jan 1, 2024.

       -- This might be an argument later of how Fifo and Lifo determine that money sent is from the earliest pile, not the latest -- if post Jan 1 2024 deposits are later made. That argument is just too weird to contemplate, although it might be necessary.

 

Anyway, just an example of the impossibility of enforcing tax compliance. Worst case: a random tax compliance audit, probably of only those with large transfers into Thailand.

 

Yes, I had similar earlier thoughts about sequencing if pensions were remitted

 

If the "only taxed in UK Pension" element (1 of 4) did have to be listed/filed when resident, would it tag on the end, and hence not push the others to a higher tax band position.

 

On the Savings front, being non-resident presently, from this year on I perhaps should isolate the exact amount of the UK only pension for a UK tax year in a savings account, and I would have a series of tax certified savings (income) packets to remit to Thailand if I became tax resident due to circumstances. 

 

Tracking savings before 2024 at a high level possible, but any tax trail impossible like you say way to complicated, as the previous criteria was only the year before.

 

 

 

[UKresonant]

3 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

I'm the worrying type so yes I'm very worried about this.

I went to my Tax office, they said "if you pay tax in your home country you won't pay tax here" I'm still worried.

Yes would wish that will be their custom and practice going forward or at least

Pension minus UK tax paid tax credit against Thai Tax = little bit Thai tax to pay.

 

If they want to claim 1st rights to tax under DTA, would be an impossible situation, in the same way life is not based on tax years .

Would be like yearly extensions of stay, limited use, to long to process before leaving the country again, or maybe not in Thailand at renewal etc.

[Shoeless Joe]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

I will also repost this from @Shoeless Joe, posted on the other thread.

 

 

However, it does not answer the question as to whether a ' Nil ' tax return has to be filed.

Well then, why don't YOU ask your local revenue office?

 

 

[Shoeless Joe]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Here is the idiots guide for foreigners

 

https://iao.bangkok.go.th/storage/files/Personal Income Tax.pdf

 

I cannot cut and paste from the document, but the opening paragraph says

 

" In general, a person liable for PIT, has to compute his tax liability,  file a tax return and pay tax, if any, accordingly on a calender year basis "

 

So the question I have asked repeatedly, If you only remit income that can only be taxed in Country X, Y or Z, as expressed in a DTA, and therefore have no liability for PIT, do you still need to file an annual tax return ?
 

Pay a tax expert isn't an answer, although I will concede it is a possible solution

Hmm...if your computations lead you to believe you have NO liability for PIT why would you think you need to file a tax return?

Of course, you could visit your local RD office and ask them.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Shoeless Joe said:

Hmm...if your computations lead you to believe you have NO liability for PIT why would you think you need to file a tax return?

Of course, you could visit your local RD office and ask them.

It would have to be, no liability to tax AND, below the threshold for having to file a return, in order to be squeaky clean.

[stat]

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

First let's establish one thing. 

I am honest in asking 'cause I don't know.

Was there a law in Thailand that we had to do the things they now say we have to do , but they did not enforce it?  If there was my bad. 

But if there was a law that was not requiring to do the things they now ask us to do  , And I say that because it is not entirely clear what specifically they require of my as it pertains to this issue. 

And now they interpret it  differently , it is a change in the law. 

before it was not required, now it is. Two different things. 

New law, new interpolation of and old law , divine inspiration etc.  Are all semantics , Orwellian doublethink, the consequence is one.

Before it was not, and now it is. 

I

 

 

The law has not changed just the interpretation! I agree it is not nice and the effect is the same as a new law would have, but it is what it is. Happend in several countries before, nothing anyone could do about it, especially as we are both foreigners in Thailand .

[Burma Bill]

5 hours ago, stat said:

 

Another amazing post

 

Ahem cambodia taxes your worldwide income way higher then Thailand...

 

NB: I am talking of course of the legal obligation to pay taxes not if you chose to go rogue etc.

 Oh really! I have lived in Cambodia for almost 4 years and I have not been asked to pay 1 Riel in taxes on my 3 UK pensions credited to a Cambodian bank. Tax is paid at source in the UK.

[StayinThailand2much]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

" In general, a person liable for PIT, has to (...) file a tax return and pay tax, if any, accordingly on a calender year basis "

 

Anyone knowledgable in tax law? If 'a person (is) liable for PIT, has to (...) file a tax return (...)', does that also mean that a person not liable for PIT doesn't have to do it?

[stat]

45 minutes ago, Burma Bill said:

 Oh really! I have lived in Cambodia for almost 4 years and I have not been asked to pay 1 Riel in taxes on my 3 UK pensions credited to a Cambodian bank. Tax is paid at source in the UK.

Tax is levied on worldwide! not just remitted income in Cambodia. A 20 sec google search would have shown it.

 

So if you pay at source, cambodia and TH are the same regarding your pension but NOT regarding other investment income so TH wins hands down.

Edited January 8 by stat

[JimGant]

7 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

I just need to know if I have a legal obligation to file a Thai Tax return if I have no assessable income

 

No!!! Nor an ethical one. [My creds? Retired CPA, formerly licensed in Virginia, USA. Expertise: Taxation and financial planning, airline aircrews. Yes, not licensed in Thailand nor an expert on expat matters -- but I would assume my background gives me a foot in the door on overall tax matters.]

[Guavaman]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

I just need to know if I have a legal obligation to file a Thai Tax return if I have no assessable income

The only way to answer this question is for a Thai RD tax assessor to consider your submission of a tax filing to determine whether or not you have assessable income.

[Mike Lister]

7 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

 

It has only been posted about 20 times across at least 3 threads, I am sure you can find it.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, stat said:

The law has not changed just the interpretation! I agree it is not nice and the effect is the same as a new law would have, but it is what it is. Happend in several countries before, nothing anyone could do about it, especially as we are both foreigners in Thailand .

 

"Did it ever occur to you that some people here work in tax consultancy"?

 

Yet again I invited the expert tax consultant to answer long standing simple tax questions raised by posters such as cyclist and Gant. Despite visiting the thread after the invitation was posted he has declined to answer. You can draw your own conclusions.

Edited January 8 by Mike Lister

[Mike Lister]

5 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

No!!! Nor an ethical one. [My creds? Retired CPA, formerly licensed in Virginia, USA. Expertise: Taxation and financial planning, airline aircrews. Yes, not licensed in Thailand nor an expert on expat matters -- but I would assume my background gives me a foot in the door on overall tax matters.]

Few if any of us, despite our respective backgrounds overseas, have much of an edge on this, simply because of the nature of the country. If anything, often our backgrounds work against us in this because we use western logic or assume adoption of base principles that really don't exist here in  practice.

[BobBKK]

On 1/6/2024 at 9:46 PM, Mike Lister said:

500k for over age 65 years pensioner

 

Yes, but I, for example, get 1.2m in pensions here, so I will still get clobbered if they follow this through. 

 

I'm toying with the idea of opening a Philippine bank account and splitting my pensions - then I can use a Philippine ATM card here. People will find a way round it OR leave. This tax was not designed for us yet Thais never think things through.

Edited January 9 by BobBKK

[JimGant]

6 hours ago, Guavaman said:

The only way to answer this question is for a Thai RD tax assessor to consider your submission of a tax filing to determine whether or not you have assessable income.

 

I doubt an RD clerk will have the time or gumption to spend time giving you free tax advice. But more importantly, if foreign income is your concern, no clerk is going to have intimate knowledge of your specific DTA, as he has over 60 to consider. So, you'll be more knowledgeable about your DTA than he will. But, if you're really unsure about what's taxable, and what's not -- I'm sure you'll have a whole host of tax preparers to choose from.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

 

I doubt an RD clerk will have the time or gumption to spend time giving you free tax advice. But more importantly, if foreign income is your concern, no clerk is going to have intimate knowledge of your specific DTA, as he has over 60 to consider. So, you'll be more knowledgeable about your DTA than he will. But, if you're really unsure about what's taxable, and what's not -- I'm sure you'll have a whole host of tax preparers to choose from.

Once again that's opinion rather than fact.

 

You may recall that each revenue office is in the process of recruiting specialist tax lawyers, one per office.

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

Yes, but I, for example, get 1.2m in pensions here, so I will still get clobbered if they follow this through. 

 

I'm toying with the idea of opening a Philippine bank account and splitting my pensions - then I can use a Philippine ATM card here. People will find a way round it OR leave. This tax was not designed for us yet Thais never think things through.

1. The way in which the income is received in Thailand does not change its definition. Bank transfers, cheques, cash, overseas ATM and credit card transactions can also be income, the last two because overseas funds were imported to pay for goods or services in Thailand.

[BobBKK]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

1. The way in which the income is received in Thailand does not change its definition. Bank transfers, cheques, cash, overseas ATM and credit card transactions can also be income, the last two because overseas funds were imported to pay for goods or services in Thailand.

Understand, but they cannot tax ATM withdrawals - it's practically impossible - think of all the tourists, etc.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Understand, but they cannot tax ATM withdrawals - it's practically impossible - think of all the tourists, etc.

Just giving you info, that's all.

[BobBKK]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

Just giving you info, that's all.

 

Right, but you get my point, I think...

[Badrabbit]

Is this all up in the air or is it 100% certain I and many others will be expected to pay tax on their pensions, in my case from the UK.

My local tax office said you choose where you pay tax here or your home country, I pay tax on all 3 of my pensions in the UK.

Yes I am a very big worrier, I want to do the right thing and avoid any problems.