Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, stat said:

"Capital Gains in Thailand is charged at PIT rates which start at 5%. Capital Gains in the UK (excl property) starts at 10%, in the US at 15% and in the EU average 18%. "

 

Thailand reviewed and updated a DTA in 2015 with India.

 

The crux of that review and update of that  DTA was to harmonise of  different rates of taxation.

 

For info only and the details can be found here.

 

https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/pdf/2016/01/tnf-thailand-jan27-2016.pdf

 

Might be of interest to those that deal in stocks, shares and are involved in various withholding taxes.

[Mike Lister]

55 minutes ago, stat said:

Your yourself posted some hours ago:

 

"Capital Gains in Thailand is charged at PIT rates which start at 5%. Capital Gains in the UK (excl property) starts at 10%, in the US at 15% and in the EU average 18%. "

 

So you yourself were talking about capital gains rate.

 

We were explicitly talking about capital gains rate as again 95% of expats do not have any working income in TH that would quailfy under PIT (working not allowed) but a lot have capital income.

 

As mentioned by other posters as well, Thailand taxes capital gains higher then most other countries and has in addition a low threshold where taxes kick in.

Stop being argumentative and trying to make connections between things where no connection was made or intended. If you wish to compare capital gains rates, please do so, if you do not, please find something else that interests you.

[stat]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Stop being argumentative and trying to make connections between things where no connection was made or intended. If you wish to compare capital gains rates, please do so, if you do not, please find something else that interests you.

I was just pointing out connections between your posts, if that is what you call argumentative...

[samtam]

On 2/4/2024 at 3:49 PM, Mike Lister said:

 

 

As the poster above as already said, you're reading the wrong thiSection 40 appears to class pensions and overseas investment income as assessable for Thai tax, which probably means the entire income of many pensioners living here.ngs, why this is only you will know! When you get done, please read this and come back to us with any remaining questions.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316818-personal-income-tax-guide-for-foreigners-thailand/

 

I am agreeing with @Guderian because 

Quote

 

Section 40 appears to class pensions and overseas investment income as assessable for Thai tax, which probably means the entire income of many pensioners living here.

 

this is true. What alters it is the allowances and deductibles, to the tune of THB500,000 per single person over the age of 65.

My UK State Pension, and income derived from investments that are brought into Thailand in whatever form, (use of foreign credit cards, ATM withdrawals from overseas accounts) are not taxed at source, so are all taxable in Thailand. So yes, the entire income is assessable for Thai tax, but not all of it is subject to tax, after deductions and allowances. 

 

As a single person (in Thai Law), but with co-mingled funds outside of Thailand entirely from joint accounts, both myself and my partner (foreigner over 65), will benefit from a THB500K deductible, (total THB1m), as we shall submit separate tax returns, which will reduce the tax bill.

[Mike Lister]

27 minutes ago, stat said:

I was just pointing out connections between your posts, if that is what you call argumentative...

Yes, you have been pointing that out repeatedly over the past 24 hours and I have explained repeatedly that no connection exists, I'm not sure how many times I need to say it for you to cease and desist or whther something else needs to happen:

 

My First Post - As you wish! It's just that in Thailand I don't pay tax on anything under 12.5k Pounds a year! The more you earn, the more you pay in Thailand, that part is true.  

You are talking specifically about investment income and capital gains, my quote was not discussing those things, my mention was of general tax income. You are cherry picking your arguments!

   

My Second Post - I wanted to satisfy myself that what I said earlier was true so I ran a quick back of the fag packet comparison. Below I compared, unscientifically, tax rates against Pounds and their Baht equivalents at 44. I assumed that the Personal Allowance and TEDA were similar, in the case of the Thai side, 350k + 150k zero rated. As you can see, the Thai tax rates are lower until they reach the range shaded in yellow and the UK has a 5% advantage, after which they diverge quite significantly once again. 

  

My Third Post - My post compared tax tables between UK and Thailand, It did not compare Capital gains rates or anything else. 

You wrote: "Your conclusion that Thailand is cheaper the higher the capital gains income is therefore dead wrong". This is your statement, not my conclusion!

  

My Fourth Post - It is PIT tax tables that are being compared side by side, nothing more than that. The focus of the Simple Tax guide and these discussions, from our perspective has always been the average expat but with an emphasis on retirees on a pension because they are the ones who have expressed most concern at the new rule and the group from which most personal messages have come. The thread cannot realistically be expected to cover all types of tax, it was only ever intended to cover PIT.

[Mike Lister]

15 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

I am agreeing with @Guderian because 

this is true. What alters it is the allowances and deductibles, to the tune of THB500,000 per single person over the age of 65.

My UK State Pension, and income derived from investments that are brought into Thailand in whatever form, (use of foreign credit cards, ATM withdrawals from overseas accounts) are not taxed at source, so are all taxable in Thailand. So yes, the entire income is assessable for Thai tax, but not all of it is subject to tax, after deductions and allowances. 

 

As a single person (in Thai Law), but with co-mingled funds outside of Thailand entirely from joint accounts, both myself and my partner (foreigner over 65), will benefit from a THB500K deductible, (total THB1m), as we shall submit separate tax returns, which will reduce the tax bill.

But then it changes yet again here:

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

[samtam]

12 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

But then it changes yet again here:

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

 

Now I'm confused again!

 

What is "it" that changes?

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

Now I'm confused again!

 

What is "it" that changes?

It's just that most people don't even need to get as far as considering TEDA because if their income is already taxed overseas in the UK, there is no need to file a return in Thailand.

[samtam]

45 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Tax Exemptions Deductions Allowances (TEDA)

Edited February 5 by samtam

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, samtam said:

Oh Lordy, what is TEDA?. I found a post with acronyms, but I can't find it now.

Hahaha....Tax Exemptions, Deductions and Allowances.

[samtam]

47 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It's just that most people don't even need to get as far as considering TEDA because if their income is already taxed overseas in the UK, there is no need to file a return in Thailand.

 

Well I obviously do.

 

1 hour ago, samtam said:

 

I am agreeing with @Guderian because 

this is true. What alters it is the allowances and deductibles, to the tune of THB500,000 per single person over the age of 65.

My UK State Pension, and income derived from investments that are brought into Thailand in whatever form, (use of foreign credit cards, ATM withdrawals from overseas accounts) are not taxed at source, so are all taxable in Thailand. So yes, the entire income is assessable for Thai tax, but not all of it is subject to tax, after deductions and allowances. 

 

As a single person (in Thai Law), but with co-mingled funds outside of Thailand entirely from joint accounts, both myself and my partner (foreigner over 65), will benefit from a THB500K deductible, (total THB1m), as we shall submit separate tax returns, which will reduce the tax bill.

 

....and hence the reason for the above post. The change is just another paper trail that I will have to create for what will probably be a tiny amount of money to be paid to the RD; my problem, not yours or theirs. Having jettisoned that rigmarole with visa extensions, by using an agent, I guess this will be another one for a CPA, in due course, before March 2025.

 

Whilst I'm at it, Can you please provide another link to the tax rates and deductibles, as I'm going cross-eyed back and forth over the two topic posts.

 

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

Hahaha....Tax Exemptions, Deductions and Allowances.

 

Yeah, I searched it on AN.

(Maybe put the glossary in the other post's Guidelines.)

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

Well I obviously do.

 

 

....and hence the reason for the above post. The change is just another paper trail that I will have to create for what will probably be a tiny amount of money to be paid to the RD; my problem, not yours or theirs. Having jettisoned that rigmarole with visa extensions, by using an agent, I guess this will be another one for a CPA, in due course, before March 2025.

 

Whilst I'm at it, Can you please provide another link to the tax rates and deductibles, as I'm going cross-eyed back and forth over the two topic posts.

 

 

Yeah, I searched it on AN.

(Maybe put the glossary in the other post's Guidelines.)

Sure, the link is below, the tax rates are at 31 and the TEDA at 33. We're currently working to proof read and make the document easier to read so bear with us.

 

 

 

[SingAPorn]

Not to forget that Thailand recently signed with the OCDE, full international cooperation and exchange of tax revenue,  which one assumes is also for revenue generated within Thailand.

 

Simply put, the foreigners who have bought houses or condos in Thailand, renting or not, but who have "forgotten" to declare the property to their tax authorities back home, are also in some spicy soup. Their homeland tax people have strong chances of getting the info sooner or later, and then some sour tax summons are going to appear on all those renting the pool villas and not having declared theproperty/ revenue back in the west

 

Many foreigners who own property in Thailand have not declared it in their homelands.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 2/2/2024 at 6:54 PM, The Cyclist said:

 

The 90 day report is to confirm that you are still in Thailand and living at the same address.

 

The 12 month extension allows you to stay in Thailand for 12 months providing you. do not do something stupid to get kicked out.

When you leave the country you present your Passpoert at Immigration - they know.

If you change address you are required to complete a TM30 - and keep it in your Passport.

 

Yes indeed - 12 months 'at the grace of the Thai Immigration Police' - you/we are not a Resident.

[samtam]

43 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Sure, the link is below, the tax rates are at 31 and the TEDA at 33. We're currently working to proof read and make the document easier to read so bear with us.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you so much. I'd better go and file it where I can't lose it.

 

47 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

Well I obviously do.

 

 

....and hence the reason for the above post. The change is just another paper trail that I will have to create for what will probably be a tiny amount of money to be paid to the RD; my problem, not yours or theirs. Having jettisoned that rigmarole with visa extensions, by using an agent, I guess this will be another one for a CPA, in due course, before March 2025.

 

Whilst I'm at it, Can you please provide another link to the tax rates and deductibles, as I'm going cross-eyed back and forth over the two topic posts.

 

 

Yeah, I searched it on AN.

(Maybe put the glossary in the other post's Guidelines.)

 

The income I referred to was

1) UK State Pension (not applicable under DTA), 

2) Income from investments (not taxed in the jurisdiction where they are earned).

 

I think already asked an answered, I presume "assessed" but not taxed means taxable in Thailand, if brought into Thailand, by whatever means?* 

1) is assessed but not taxed, or zero-rated taxed, (as it falls below the UK tax allowance) and 

2) is assessed but not taxed, because it is zero-rated in the jurisdiction in which it is earned.

 

*Is that correct?

 

 

Edited February 5 by samtam

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 2/3/2024 at 2:26 AM, stat said:

I was assuming /apparently wrongly) that you have no other tax residency other then TH so yes you are right your case may be different. Usually you only have one tax residency as most countries use the 183 day rule (AUS, US seem to be the exemption; Germany can be in some cases as well if you still have an abode in GER). On what ground does AUS rule you to be an AUS tax citizen? I think most expats with the exception of the US guys only have one tax residency as they cannot stay more then 183 in another country if they have already stayed 183 in TH. It is my understanding that the Thais can claim income tax from you all the same if the DTA does not prohibit it. In case of GER TH the DTA explicitly states that TH has the right to tax me if I live in TH and have not lived 183 in GER, no idea though about Australian DTA. Especially if you have no other tax residency (or income from the other state) TH can tax you as they please according only to their law. They could for example make up a wealth tax of 10% p.a. and charge it. Every country can make up their own law as you can see in North Korea, Iran etc no matter how outrageous it may seem to us westerners and give us nothing in return.

 

Again I still think TH will not collect or apply these taxes US IRS style but they could.

How it works in most countries is that being a tax resident is completely different from being a resident for purposes of social welfare and other Gover benefits, which is again completely different from being a Citizen.  As a Citizen of Aust (and most countries) it does not take a lot to still be a tax resident when you are staying in other countries, no matter the length of time.  You can be a tax resident of several countries - but the one that has 'precedent' is the one where you have most 'legal and social and financial' involvement - which for most Expats in Thailand who keep their money in their home country and also keep in contact with family/friuends there, means their home country would 'win' if the matter went to a Court - especially in their home country - especially if they are paying taxes (even if zero or very small) in their home country. 

 

TH will have a great deal of trouble proving they have a greater involvement in my life - when technically and legally I am just a tourist here and could be made to leave at any time.  Sure I am a tax resident after 180 days - but I am still a tax resident in Aust - and good luck Thailand trying to convince Aust ATO (their IRS) and CLink (Social Werlfare) and Politicians to pay over part of their age pension money sent to all ther Expats in Thailand, to the Thai Revenue Department in the form of income taxes.  I heard there are about 30K Aussie Expats in Thailand and many of them are on the Pension - that is a big chunck of Australian tacxpayers money going to the Thai Govt.  Two chances of that being alloowed - none and buckleys.  IMO the same situation applies to most retired/married Expats recieving a Pension from their home country. 

 

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

 

Thank you so much. I'd better go and file it where I can't lose it.

 

 

The income I referred to was

1) UK State Pension (not applicable under DTA), 

2) Income from investments (not taxed in the jurisdiction where they are earned).

 

I think already asked an answered, but is 1) assessed but not taxed, or zero-rated taxed, (as it falls below the UK tax allowance) and 

2) assessed but not taxed, because it is zero-rated in the jurisdiction in which it is earned.

 

I presume "assessed" but not taxed means taxable in Thailand, if brought into Thailand, by whatever means?

Number 1, the UK State Pension, is subject to the UK tax return process and even though no tax is paid on it, that means it is free of tax here. The key is that the income is subject to the process, not necessarily that tax is paid.

 

Number 2 is slightly more tricky, presumably this is offshore income which depending on the relevant DTA, is likely tax able here, subject to TEDA. But it depends when the income was earned, if prior to 1 January 2024, it also is free of tax in Thailand. If earned after that date, the capital and interest need to be separated such that the capital is free of tax but the income earned post 1 January 2024 is taxable.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 2/3/2024 at 7:17 PM, stat said:

Reading your great post another red flag for me was raised. If I do not have to file a tax report and most of the expats will not do in 2025 I am sure there will be no real "safety" even after 2025 how this will all play out. Are you 100% sure that one does not have to file? In other countries for example you have to file if you earn foreign income that has not been taxed no matter how neglible the amount. I am aware that this is not really an indication for Thailand but is shows there is the possibility burried somewhere deep in the thai RD laws and directives. Thanks!

I am no tax expert but I know a couple, and although this 'new rule' does muddy things up, I am absolutely certain an Expat does not have to lodge a tax return unless they have to pay income taxes.  What we/you should do though is document all the reasons why you made that decision in writing - every reason and include every amount - from money remitted, exempted under DTA, allowances, deductions, etc etc etc.  I have a spreadsheet and I have used that to document that my Pension is not taxable (DTA) and I calculated the small amount of interest I earned in my retirement savings when calculated as a percentage of the fund money I also remitted into Thailand. I then put that as taxable income (when remitted) and it is far less that the allowances and deductions that my Thai Wife and I have - and of course we file a joint return so we both get those allowances and deductions.  But the fact is that even if I was single the allowances just for me alone, are well over the small amount of taxable income in Thailand.   I also plan to have statements from all my financial accounts/sources, that details everything over the year - from Jan 1 to Dec 31 - and I will keep those on file each year too. 

 

And yes, I am also absolutely certain that it is not a matter of documenting everything in a tax return and letting the Tha RD decide if you are correct or not. If you calculate you have no income taxes to pay, they do not want you to lodge a tax return - it is a self assessed system.  But as I have said many times - be aware that if you deliberately avoid paying income taxes the Thai RD can tear you a new one.  Keep all your records and document everythying and keep it just in case.  You never know when/if the Thai RD will send you a request to explain why you have not paid any income taxes for the past X years - they will know exactly how much you remitted into the country.  That was a vewry serious concenr of mine early doors - but I now do not beliueve that will happen unless the amount of remittances totals a large amount in one year (maybe 5 or 10 million baht - who knows). 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 2/4/2024 at 4:01 PM, stat said:

I think you are mixing up the term resident. On the tax side the defintion is clear it is 180 days in Thailand and you are a TAX resident period. Any other legal definition in terms of how long will not matter. You could however hope to seek refuge under an DTA and claim to be only aussie resident with your definition but the outcome will be highly uncertain and very time consuming and very costly.

True - but remember - a tourist can stay in Thailand as long as he/she wants - they are legally not subject to income taxes - unless they earn money while here. Not easy to do that for sure, but with a 90 days on arrival, do that 3 times over any year (first one in Nov/Dec previous year) and you hit the 180 days.  The point is that tourists do not pay income taxes - and IMO we are just long-term tourists legally.  Sure that may not work out in a Thai Court - but it is an issue not previosuly covered by a Thai Court. 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

True - but remember - a tourist can stay in Thailand as long as he/she wants - they are legally not subject to income taxes - unless they earn money while here. Not easy to do that for sure, but with a 90 days on arrival, do that 3 times over any year (first one in Nov/Dec previous year) and you hit the 180 days.  The point is that tourists do not pay income taxes - and IMO we are just long-term tourists legally.  Sure that may not work out in a Thai Court - but it is an issue not previosuly covered by a Thai Court. 

This is incorrect. Any one who spends more than 180 days in the country, regardless of their visa type or status, is tax resident.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

This is incorrect. Any one who spends more than 180 days in the country, regardless of their visa type or status, is tax resident.

We can agree to disagree on that.  We certainly fit the definition, but the issue is does that mean we have to pay income taxes. 

A tourist does not have to pay income taxes in any country (I am aware of) no matter how long they net stay in the country over a year. 

[4MyEgo]

20 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

but the one that has 'precedent' is the one where you have most 'legal and social and financial' involvement - which for most Expats in Thailand who keep their money in their home country and also keep in contact with family/friuends there, means their home country would 'win' if the matter went to a Court - especially in their home country - especially if they are paying taxes (even if zero or very small) in their home country. 

 

I tend to disagree with you (respectfully), you see I am a resident here in Thailand whether I like it or not, and have been so for nearly a decade.

 

I have family back in Oz, bank accounts, a drivers license which I renew every 5 years, and I maintain a Medicare card and renew it before it expires. I also have club memberships, but all of that doesn't make me a resident of Australia.

 

Having kids here that go to school, can make it all that harder to say I am a resident of Australia, that said, the only tax I pay in Australia as a non resident is 10% withholding tax of the bank interest that I earn.

 

That said, there are pluses and there are minuses being a resident of Thailand, and of course you might ask, how do I get to keep my Medicare card, well, if you read the legislation, it says if you are out of the country for more than 5 years at a time, it lapses, so I make sure I return before the 5 years is up, and no, you don't have to pay a Medicare levy if you don't work, think about that for a minute, how many Ozzies are on the dole or pension etc etc and don't pay anything for Medicare, so yes, I am special. The system is there for a purpose, i.e. for me to find ways to get a round it, where I can....LoL

 

20 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

TH will have a great deal of trouble proving they have a greater involvement in my life - when technically and legally I am just a tourist here and could be made to leave at any time.  Sure I am a tax resident after 180 days - but I am still a tax resident in Aust - and good luck Thailand trying to convince Aust ATO (their IRS) and CLink (Social Werlfare) and Politicians to pay over part of their age pension money sent to all ther Expats in Thailand, to the Thai Revenue Department in the form of income taxes.  I heard there are about 30K Aussie Expats in Thailand and many of them are on the Pension - that is a big chunck of Australian tacxpayers money going to the Thai Govt.  Two chances of that being alloowed - none and buckleys.  IMO the same situation applies to most retired/married Expats recieving a Pension from their home country. 

 

Regardless of what you think, Article 18 of the Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) between Australia and Thailand, grants Thailand the right to tax your age pension if you are considered a resident of Thailand.

 

The above said, if you consider yourself a tax resident of Australia and lodge a tax return every year, as you should, then it is highly unlikely that they can't touch you.

 

However if the Thai Revenue Department asks the ATO if TroubleandGrumpy lodges his tax return annually and the ATO says nope, then you are up S Creek and will be asked to cough up.

[Mike Lister]

24 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

We can agree to disagree on that.  We certainly fit the definition, but the issue is does that mean we have to pay income taxes. 

A tourist does not have to pay income taxes in any country (I am aware of) no matter how long they net stay in the country over a year. 

Anyone who stay in the country for more than 180 days in the same calendar year, is resident for tax purposes and is obliged to pay tax, regardless of their visa type. There is no if and or but about this, unless you want to provide a conclusive link to a reliable well established source, confirming otherwise. Calling somebody a tourist, a resident,  a holiday maker or any other name, doesn't change the fact of the matter. 

 

"Residents are defined as persons residing in Thailand at one or more times for an aggregate period of 180 days or more in any tax (calendar) year. Short-term residence is not defined under Thai tax regulations".

 

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/residence

[4MyEgo]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Anyone who stay in the country for more than 180 days in the same calendar year, is resident for tax purposes and is obliged to pay tax, regardless of their visa type. There is no if and or but about this, unless you want to provide a conclusive link to a reliable well established source, confirming otherwise. Calling somebody a tourist, a resident,  a holiday maker or any other name, doesn't change the fact of the matter. 

 

As he has mentioned that he is an Australian, Australia and Thailand has a Double Taxation Agreement (DTA), and if he states that he is a resident of Australia and pays taxes in Australia, i.e. lodges a tax return annually, then Thailand cannot touch him, so to speak, but if he doesn't lodge a tax return in Australia as a resident, then the Thai Revenue department can ask the Australian Taxation Office, as they have an agreement to communicate with each other, and they will have him for breakfast.

 

He can think he's a tourist and argue his case in front of a Thai Judge, we all know what the outcome of that would be, 180 days, go straight to jail, do not collect $200 (Monopoly) LoL.

[samtam]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Number 1, the UK State Pension, is subject to the UK tax return process and even though no tax is paid on it, that means it is free of tax here. The key is that the income is subject to the process, not necessarily that tax is paid.

 

Number 2 is slightly more tricky, presumably this is offshore income which depending on the relevant DTA, is likely tax able here, subject to TEDA. But it depends when the income was earned, if prior to 1 January 2024, it also is free of tax in Thailand. If earned after that date, the capital and interest need to be separated such that the capital is free of tax but the income earned post 1 January 2024 is taxable.

 

 

Number 1....Oh, so that's now a complete reversal of what I understood from this Opus Magnum.

Number 2....It is an income derived from dividends in shares, which are assessed, but deemed not taxable, under the tax laws of Hong Kong:

 

Quote

Dividends are generally not taxable. Dividends paid from profits that already have been subject to Hong Kong tax are not taxable in the hands of shareholders. Dividends received from foreign companies are not taxable because they are foreign- source income. Hong Kong does not tax capital gains.

 

cf: https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/hong-kong-sar/corporate/income-determination

 

Income pre 1 January 2024 is now apparently exempt, but income derived after 1 January 2024 is not exempt...(subject to being utilised within Thailand, by means of ATM withdrawal or HK issued Credit Card usage).

 

Is that correct?

 

 

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

Number 1....Oh, so that's now a complete reversal of what I understood from this Opus Magnum.

Number 2....It is an income derived from dividends in shares, which are assessed, but deemed not taxable, under the tax laws of Hong Kong:

 

 

cf: https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/hong-kong-sar/corporate/income-determination

 

Income pre 1 January 2024 is now apparently exempt, but income derived after 1 January 2024 is not exempt...(subject to being utilised within Thailand, by means of ATM withdrawal or HK issued Credit Card usage).

 

Is that correct?

 

 

Re. Number 1 - if it weren't for the existence of the Personal Allowance, that tax free zone, the State pension would be taxable. But because the PA does exist, the SP is taxable but effectively at a zero rated band. The net is that the SP has been thru the tax return process, if the PA were removed tomorrow, the SP would be taxed at 20%.

 

Re. Number 2 - I'm struggling with this. That income is not taxable in HK but when it is imported here it may be, you aren't a citizen (presumably) of HK, you only have an investment there so I don't think you can invoke a DTA, even if it were favorable to you. I think bottom line may be that it is Thai taxable but I'm not certain.

 

Re: pre 1 Jan 2024 income - correct.

 

 

[UKresonant]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

How it works in most countries is that being a tax resident is completely different from being a resident for purposes of social welfare and other Gover benefits, which is again completely different from being a Citizen.  As a Citizen of Aust (and most countries) it does not take a lot to still be a tax resident when you are staying in other countries, no matter the length of time.  You can be a tax resident of several countries - but the one that has 'precedent' is the one where you have most 'legal and social and financial' involvement - which for most Expats in Thailand who keep their money in their home country and also keep in contact with family/friuends there, means their home country would 'win' if the matter went to a Court - especially in their home country - especially if they are paying taxes (even if zero or very small) in their home country. 

 

TH will have a great deal of trouble proving they have a greater involvement in my life - when technically and legally I am just a tourist here and could be made to leave at any time.  Sure I am a tax resident after 180 days - but I am still a tax resident in Aust - and good luck Thailand trying to convince Aust ATO (their IRS) and CLink (Social Werlfare) and Politicians to pay over part of their age pension money sent to all ther Expats in Thailand, to the Thai Revenue Department in the form of income taxes.  I heard there are about 30K Aussie Expats in Thailand and many of them are on the Pension - that is a big chunck of Australian tacxpayers money going to the Thai Govt.  Two chances of that being alloowed - none and buckleys.  IMO the same situation applies to most retired/married Expats recieving a Pension from their home country. 

 

I think that my centre of vital interest will likely be the UK, with article 4 fiscal domicile. 

Non-resident non-O or tourist visa,  unlikely to be in Thailand more than 90 / 150 days on a single trip, unless there was a specific need.

Own nothing in Thailand, if the wife buys a property I had to sign it was nothing to do with me anyway. 

The only thing I have there is enough to maintain bank accounts. 

 

 

UK Ties

90 day tie likely will be there 92+ Most years. Valid at least 2 years anyway

Accommodation tie aways available and use it every year hopefully.

 

99.8 % of Income originates from the UK.

 

But don't wish to get to that level, that Article 4, fiscal domicile needs debating.

 

Should I  become tax resident in Thailand in the future. I would try and design things in initial years. 

 

1. Not having to file.

2. Not filing, whilst ensuring I'm absolutely not due any tax to Thai RD, article 4 may also help, Thailand not cetre of vital (tax) interest,  if questioned.

Would have to make sure bank interest never exceeds 60k THB ( not difficult probably)

3. If I was there all year in the more distant future, UK sufficient ties not in place, yes would file in Thainland etc

 

I have no tax assessable items for  Thailand currently  the one year I was perhaps Tax resident, was spent, and cannot still be mingled on the books. So I would be in the same situation as someone as a brand new arrival, despite having been every year since 1993 (except 21/22 Covid .)

 

Just don't want any hassle!

 

(Pray they never move to Global Tax, that would make things substantially problematic for me.....)

[UKresonant]

1 hour ago, samtam said:

 

Number 1....Oh, so that's now a complete reversal of what I understood from this Opus Magnum.

Number 2....It is an income derived from dividends in shares, which are assessed, but deemed not taxable, under the tax laws of Hong Kong:

 

 

cf: https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/hong-kong-sar/corporate/income-determination

 

Income pre 1 January 2024 is now apparently exempt, but income derived after 1 January 2024 is not exempt...(subject to being utilised within Thailand, by means of ATM withdrawal or HK issued Credit Card usage).

 

Is that correct?

 

 

If the dividends are distributed, whilst you are tax resident in Thailand, from 2024, they are Thai tax assesable whenever you remit them to Thailand. 

Dividends and interest tend to be taxed where you are (tax) resident, said a credible  YouTube channel, rather than where they arise.

 

(I would have the same situation with tax free in UK, Individual savings account, dividends. (As part of my UK end re-shuffle they will all trail to the account paying UK end essentials.) Dividends and gains taxable as just any other income in Thailand. So they will be a static income and growth  portfolios if I'm in Thailand for a while. 

[UKresonant]

2 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

As he has mentioned that he is an Australian, Australia and Thailand has a Double Taxation Agreement (DTA), and if he states that he is a resident of Australia and pays taxes in Australia, i.e. lodges a tax return annually, then Thailand cannot touch him, so to speak, but if he doesn't lodge a tax return in Australia as a resident, then the Thai Revenue department can ask the Australian Taxation Office, as they have an agreement to communicate with each other, and they will have him for breakfast.

 

He can think he's a tourist and argue his case in front of a Thai Judge, we all know what the outcome of that would be, 180 days, go straight to jail, do not collect $200 (Monopoly) LoL.

I would certainly not want to rely on the tie breaker in article 4, as a principle reason for not filing, if you know you have remitted (especially) non pension , non-pre-taxed income . Very thin ice. UK HMRC or equivl. may not issue a "letter of confirmation" then your hung out to dry. Just have to file.....

 

All of my pensions are pre-taxed in the UK in any case.

Edited February 5 by UKresonant

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

I tend to disagree with you (respectfully), you see I am a resident here in Thailand whether I like it or not, and have been so for nearly a decade.

 

I have family back in Oz, bank accounts, a drivers license which I renew every 5 years, and I maintain a Medicare card and renew it before it expires. I also have club memberships, but all of that doesn't make me a resident of Australia.

 

Having kids here that go to school, can make it all that harder to say I am a resident of Australia, that said, the only tax I pay in Australia as a non resident is 10% withholding tax of the bank interest that I earn.

 

That said, there are pluses and there are minuses being a resident of Thailand, and of course you might ask, how do I get to keep my Medicare card, well, if you read the legislation, it says if you are out of the country for more than 5 years at a time, it lapses, so I make sure I return before the 5 years is up, and no, you don't have to pay a Medicare levy if you don't work, think about that for a minute, how many Ozzies are on the dole or pension etc etc and don't pay anything for Medicare, so yes, I am special. The system is there for a purpose, i.e. for me to find ways to get a round it, where I can....LoL

 

 

Regardless of what you think, Article 18 of the Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) between Australia and Thailand, grants Thailand the right to tax your age pension if you are considered a resident of Thailand.

 

The above said, if you consider yourself a tax resident of Australia and lodge a tax return every year, as you should, then it is highly unlikely that they can't touch you.

 

However if the Thai Revenue Department asks the ATO if TroubleandGrumpy lodges his tax return annually and the ATO says nope, then you are up S Creek and will be asked to cough up.

Fair enough - lets respectfully agree to disagree.

 

One point - the ATO will not and cannot provide financial details of Aust Citizens to another country - without an Aust Court order.  The banks can but only with due authority and approval under the rules/regulations.