Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

There are very few tax specialists inThailand the ones there are are mostly in Bangkok and will be expensive.

 

Local Thai CPAs normally don't know much about advanced tax questions. Worse yet they tend to have friends in the local Revenue office, Those Revenue agents are normally not well trained and will give the governments side of the issue.

 

Stay calm for now...

 

 

My experience of obtaining tax advice in Thailand is that the local Revenue office is an excellent place to start. I have always found the RD staff to be the most helpful of any government offices and their staff most willing to help. The Thai Revenue code is not complex for Personal Income returns, the average expat will almost certainly have no problems working thing out, perhaps with some help from Revenue staff. If you get into business taxation or international tax (not PI) the story changes but this is not about those things.

[Rampant Rabbit]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes to the more than 180 day part.

 

They are different names already, one is resident, the other is tax resident or resident for tax purposes, you have to pay close attention to the wording.

 

Correct to No income into Thailand part.

 

As for the rest of what you wrote, you worry too much and your imagination is far too vivid, relax, it will be OK.

 

FWIW I think everyone should stop trying to second guess this and worry needlessly. Thailand has a solid track record of announcing new things before they've been thought through fully, once they have, at a later date, what is implemented will make sence and be logical.

 

 

Yes I do get it, but again 180 days = resident but should i rewrite that as TAX resdient, theres a  discrepancy in some wording in a previous  post I think it should say tax  resident not resident, ok its here in your  reply below

 

The DTA applies to persons who are residents of the Contracting States. In order to be classified as a Thai resident and be entitled to treaty benefits, a person must be one of the following:

- An individual who stays in Thailand for a period or periods exceeding in the aggregate 180 days in a tax year;

 

Ok so 180days = "resident " according to the above qoute you posted? ( no mention being a  tax  resisdent in that, though i accept i would be) but the above staes I would then be resident?

[Mike Lister]

30 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Relax, many tax accountants don't know and many RD people also don't know. Take your time and assess your situation. You have until maybe 25th of June 2024 next year to get clarification.

 

 

I haven't studied this aspect but it seems to me this new law comes into effect on 1 January, 2024. That means, taxes filed for the tax year 2024, which begins on 1 January and ends on 31 December, must be filed the following year, typically by 31 March 2025. 

[parallelman]

Maybe someone has already mentioned this. Does, or will, the money in the bank method for yearly extensions be considered as 'savings'?

[Rampant Rabbit]

2 minutes ago, parallelman said:

Maybe someone has already mentioned this. Does, or will, the money in the bank method for yearly extensions be considered as 'savings'?

Seems there are  no real answers an ANY of  this. The  only way anyone is  going to know is when someone actually reports any problem and even then from numerous departments as they all invent their own interpretation on it.

Worse  case the 800-400k will be taxed so youll have to increase  that to meet the threshold, then theyll throw in insurance for health for  all extensions and  finally double the amount required as they never shove it  up by small increments and the final insult not grandftaher anyone in.

No problem for me, although my Wife is  going to get awful lonely in her old  age as I wont be around Ill be gone, but I have left her financially set for life.

No point in anymore  discussion really though, for sure TV will milk this to death for clicks in the next few  months.

 

[moogradod]

12 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

There are very few tax specialists inThailand the ones there are are mostly in Bangkok and will be expensive.

 

Local Thai CPAs normally don't know much about advanced tax questions. Worse yet they tend to have friends in the local Revenue office, Those Revenue agents are normally not well trained and will give the governments side of the issue.

 

Stay calm for now...

 

 

You are right with your asessment - I have a bit of (bad) experience. Before my wife and me came here I had as well to clarify some tricky questions and was on the search of a lawyer. So I had contact with two locals and some of the most renowned big ones plus a private one in BKK. Some wanted to take advantage of my Newbie status, some could not exactly tell me what I needed to know and the private one in BKK had a price tag like the best in Switzerland.  It was in fact very disturbing but in the end I managed to clarify my questions after a lot of work.

 

One thing I managed to get perfectly done was the Thai Wills and Living Wills for my wife and me. From a trustworthy, competent sympathetic and even very reasonable small company.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Yes I do get it, but again 180 days = resident but should i rewrite that as TAX resdient, theres a  discrepancy in some wording in a previous  post I think it should say tax  resident not resident, ok its here in your  reply below

 

The DTA applies to persons who are residents of the Contracting States. In order to be classified as a Thai resident and be entitled to treaty benefits, a person must be one of the following:

- An individual who stays in Thailand for a period or periods exceeding in the aggregate 180 days in a tax year;

 

Ok so 180days = "resident " according to the above qoute you posted? ( no mention being a  tax  resisdent in that, though i accept i would be) but the above staes I would then be resident?

That quote comes from the Thai Revenue Department  DTA document. Their use of the word "residents" (note, plural, not resident) in the first sentence is descriptive and not intended to be a term or proper name, it is meant to differentiate between people who remain here for long periods and those who visit as tourists. The documents second use of the words "Thai resident" should read, Thai tax resident (or similar). But the document does go on to qualify and define, the term Thai Tax Resident and the criteria needed to become tax resident, eg, more than 180 days so all the information is there. In your defense, the term Resident and Tax Resident should both have been capitalised but weren't. 

 

The DTA applies to persons who are residents of the Contracting States. In order to be classified as a Thai resident and be entitled to treaty benefits, a person must be one of the following:

- An individual who stays in Thailand for a period or periods exceeding in the aggregate 180 days in a tax year;

- A juristic person who is incorporated under the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand.

 

 

[Rampant Rabbit]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

That quote comes from the Thai Revenue Department  DTA document. Their use of the word "residents" (note, plural, not resident) in the first sentence is descriptive and not intended to be a term or proper name, it is meant to differentiate between people who remain here for long periods and those who visit as tourists. The documents second use of the words "Thai resident" should read, Thai tax resident (or similar). But the document does go on to qualify and define, the term Thai Tax Resident and the criteria needed to become tax resident, eg, more than 180 days so all the information is there. In your defense, the term Resident and Tax Resident should both have been capitalised but weren't. 

 

The DTA applies to persons who are residents of the Contracting States. In order to be classified as a Thai resident and be entitled to treaty benefits, a person must be one of the following:

- An individual who stays in Thailand for a period or periods exceeding in the aggregate 180 days in a tax year;

- A juristic person who is incorporated under the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand.

 

 

Thanks......confusing as ever  Ill do what Ive alwsys done with tax  depts worldwide......tell them as  little  as  possible.

[freeworld]

43 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I haven't studied this aspect but it seems to me this new law comes into effect on 1 January, 2024. That means, taxes filed for the tax year 2024, which begins on 1 January and ends on 31 December, must be filed the following year, typically by 31 March 2025. 

Its not a new law, it always existed in the revenue code and RD have clarified their interpretation of the revenue code with their new order which is effective from 1st Jan 2024.

 

Thai tax year starts on 1st Jan to 31 dec and if one has assessable income the tax return must be filed by end of March following the tax year. This has always been the case.

Edited October 7, 2023 by freeworld

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Its not a new law, it always existed in the revenue code and RD have clarified their interpretation of the revenue code with their new order which is effective from 1st Jan 2024.

 

Thai tax year starts on 1st Jan to 31 dec and if one has assessable income the tax return must be filed by end of March. This has always been the case.

Yes, but not June 2024 as the previous poster stated.

[freeworld]

12 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, but not June 2024 as the previous poster stated.

To be tax resident in 2024, one has to stay 180 days or more. To decide and clarify in Thailand one has until June 2024 to sort it out or to have other options.

Edited October 7, 2023 by freeworld

[retiree]

39 minutes ago, parallelman said:

Maybe someone has already mentioned this. Does, or will, the money in the bank method for yearly extensions be considered as 'savings'?

Again, here's the method:

 -- were you a Thai tax resident when you earned it?  If so, the income is assessable.

 -- were you a Thai tax resident when you brought it in?  If so, the income may be taxable, depending on DTA.

 -- was either answer "no" ?  It is not taxable.

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, freeworld said:

To be tax resident in 2024, one has to stay 180 days or more. To decide and clarify in Thailand one has until June 2024 to sort it out or to have other options.

Ah, I agree. I had not considered that a person wouldn't understand in advance what their tax residency was going to be for the full year.

[parallelman]

10 minutes ago, retiree said:

Again, here's the method:

 -- were you a Thai tax resident when you earned it?  If so, the income is assessable.

 -- were you a Thai tax resident when you brought it in?  If so, the income may be taxable, depending on DTA.

 -- was either answer "no" ?  It is not taxable.

So it seems to be dependent on the definition of 'Thai Tax Resident'. Okay, Thank you.

[ExTexan]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:59 AM, impulse said:

If you didn't get mugged last night walking on the sidewalk, you're enjoying for free the benefits of tax money spent on police and sidewalks.

 

Where are those mythical sidewalks? ????

[Lorry]

12 hours ago, ukrules said:

It's nonsense, that's what it is.

It's possible if the tax liability is very high.

Thailand sometimes arrests tax refugees from Europe and extradites them. 

[homeseeker]

Aha! The real reason why the Thai government want to screw foreigners out of money we have already paid tax on=

 

Thai government to give 10,000-baht digital wallet to citizens despite criticism | Thaiger (thethaiger.com)

 

 

" distribute a 10,000-baht digital wallet to every Thai citizen over the age of 16"

 

[stat]

7 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

I resumed filing after a few years between jobs and there was no question about the missing years. There is no obligation to file if you have no incone. Filing to reclaim tax on interest and dividends is optional. If they do ask, tell them you had no assessable income or file late returns claiming tax refunds which might offset late fines..

I hope this will be the solution all of us are looking for. I simply do not file a tax return as I have set aside money that has gathered no untaxed income. It went similiar for the loophole before as no one ever bothered to check if the money you transfered was with mixed interest or cap gains from another year or the same year...

[deejai33]

7 hours ago, JimHuaHin said:

 

 

Firstly, when the Thai Revenue Department refers to foreign income from the current year, are they referring to the Thai tax year (1 October to 30 September), a calendar year (eg 2023), a 12-month period, or the foreign tax year (in my case, from Australia, 1 June to 31 July)?

 

 

 

Not sure where you got the idea that the thai tax year starts 1st October from.

 

Other posts here, and googling 'thai tax year', say it starts january 1st.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by deejai33

[Lorry]

41 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

Not sure where you got the idea that the thai tax year starts 1st October from.

 

Other posts here, and googling 'thai tax year', say it starts january 1st.

 

 

As say multiple publications from the RD

[JimGant]

12 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Are you sure you won't have to pay more tax overall? 

Well, there could be a case, where a very large amount of a US private pension is paid, and remitted to Thailand, in a tax year. The Thai tax on that amount could exceed the US tax on that same amount. So, under the rules, you'd only get a tax credit up to what the US tax would be on that same amount. So, yeah, those extra Thai taxes over the amount allowed as a credit against your US taxes -- would now be a gotcha in the new era of remittance taxation on income.

[freeworld]

...

Edited October 7, 2023 by freeworld

[freeworld]

2 hours ago, deejai33 said:

Not sure where you got the idea that the thai tax year starts 1st October from.

 

Other posts here, and googling 'thai tax year', say it starts january 1st.

 

 

The Thai tax year does not change it remains 1st Jan to 31st Dec.

 

There is an additional requirement for individuals deriving certain income from rent, advertising, professional fees, business income, entertainment to file an additional half yearly tax return and submit by October.

 

OCTOBER
Deadline Form/Report Description of Form/Report Instructions/Comments Deadline for Internet
Filing October 2, 2023 (in lieu of September 30, 2023 which falls on Saturday)
Por Ngor Dor 94 Mid-year personal income tax return
An individual taxpayer who derived income under Section 40 (5), (6), (7) and (8) such as rent, professional fees, business income etc. during January to June 2023 must file this return and pay any tax due to the District Office.

 

Deadline for Internet Filing
October 9, 2023 (in lieu of October 8, 2023 which falls on Sunday

Edited October 7, 2023 by freeworld

[Karma80]

3 hours ago, homeseeker said:

Aha! The real reason why the Thai government want to screw foreigners out of money we have already paid tax on=

 

Thai government to give 10,000-baht digital wallet to citizens despite criticism | Thaiger (thethaiger.com)

 

 

" distribute a 10,000-baht digital wallet to every Thai citizen over the age of 16"

 

Not just to raise funds for the payment. The 10,000 THB to each citizen is a CBDC (Central bank digital currency) and will make Thailand one of the first countries in the world to make that legal tender. What better way to get broad acceptance and have people "exploiting a loophole" (aka just following the law for 40 years) pay for it.

I think as expats, the concern would be how rapidly the integration of CBDC and banking segments, combined with generally corrupt and/or incompetent governmental levels will move and how it ends up. I personally think the taxation system will become more hostile once it has teeth and data. This instruction to the RD is just part of the broad roadmap and we can always guarantee that there are a bunch of people with their noses in the trough with an interest to make it happen.

[redwood1]

40 minutes ago, freeworld said:

The Thai tax year does not change it remains 1st Jan to 31st Dec.

 

There is an additional requirement for individuals deriving certain income from rent, advertising, professional fees, business income, entertainment to file an additional half yearly tax return and submit by October.

 

OCTOBER
Deadline Form/Report Description of Form/Report Instructions/Comments Deadline for Internet
Filing October 2, 2023 (in lieu of September 30, 2023 which falls on Saturday)
Por Ngor Dor 94 Mid-year personal income tax return
An individual taxpayer who derived income under Section 40 (5), (6), (7) and (8) such as rent, professional fees, business income etc. during January to June 2023 must file this return and pay any tax due to the District Office.

 

Deadline for Internet Filing
October 9, 2023 (in lieu of October 8, 2023 which falls on Sunday

What are the exact dates the nonsense should be filed in the circular file?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

11 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

There is no obligation to file if you have no incone

I agree with that - and that point is the key and if correct that creates a potential for avaioding the Thai RD.

However, if the Thai RD, now or in the future, decides that all that money you remitted into Thailand each year might have been taxable and that you should have done a tax return every year - then we are all copulated. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

11 hours ago, ThaiPauly said:

No, I just can't  be bothered to try and read this thread...it's taking me more time to navigate through the ads than it is to read the thread....I can find all this on other forums anyway.....

 

The owners want to sell Thai Visa, well good luck with that  I hardly visit anymore, when Jonathan Fairfield's company sold TV it was in good condition, Asean only care about advertising revenue not the members  of which there are very very few left from the good old days of TV, it was a real community  and we socialized regularly, in fact one of my mates is flying in for a visit from NZ , I met this guy  almost 20 years ago on this forum and we are best freinds.

 

I hope they do sell it and that the new owners will remember that without people like us they are nothing

Set your browser to maximum tracking and scamming block mode.

Get an app that blocks ads and advertising content.

Many other ways too. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Not trying to be pedantic here but a resident of Thailand and a resident of Thailand for tax purposes are not the same. Someone here on a long stay visa is not a resident of Thailand, only a Thai citizen or a person who has been granted residency can be a Thai resident.

Totally Wrong. Obviously you have not read the posts. 180 days or more, in total, living in Thailand Jan 1 to Dec 31 means you are a tax resident of Thailand - no matter where you are from or what type of Visa you have (or dont have). FACT.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

7 hours ago, aldriglikvid said:

Haven't visited this thread in one week. Last time I was here you argued automatic surveillance of all incoming transfers and CC- & debit payments. Now you've tuned it up to a 50% flat tax of transfers into the country. If any of these things would be implemented, it would be a 'worlds first'. 

I'd recommend everyone to not indulge oneself in this amount of fear mongering, adjacent to paranoia, as it might very well impact mental health. 

As things have become known, my position has been changed - as has many members who are active on this iisue and who are staying across other people's posts as things develop. 

I never argued automatic survelliance - I did say that the banks record all foreign deposits into Thailand and those records can be accessed by the Thai RD - because that is true.

I said perhaps they wont view 100% of the money I bring in as taxable income - maybe only 50% - but I said either way that is still unacceptable.  About half I bring in is from my Pension - as explained a while ago - which you obviously did not read.  

Next time you stay away for a week - read through the posts before making such negative comments taking them out of context - otherwise you run the risk of looking like an annoying and ignorant person.  

Dont care about this matter ? That is OK. Leave the rest of us alone who do thank you. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

6 hours ago, moogradod said:

And you may add to Retirement and Marriage as well Thai Elite (now Prestige). So your main worries are as well mine. Payment is not the problem. But I do not want to approach the RD before all open questions are answered. So far Thai Elite has many times been advertised as tax free. But this seems now definitely not to be the case, only certain other Long Stay Visa.

 

So for preparation I do need the most professional accountant  / tax specialist there is in Chonburi or I really get seriously disturbed in the mind. Or may I safely relax for some more weeks ? Anybody knows someone with real expertise and possibly connections to the RD ? If Yes then pls. mail. Thanks.

The main thing to remember about this issue is that it could be a huge worry.

But there will not be any actual negative oputcomes until 2025 - after the 2024 tax year.

Hopefully, during this year or 2024 the Thai RD will release statement/s saying what they view about the money being brought into Thailand by Expats who are Retired or Married - as per our Visa requiements.

Should they say any Expat bringing into Thaioland more than 150K Baht must lodge a tax return and claim the 'tax credits' (as per the DTA) for taxes already paid, then that is very bad.

Should they say any Expat that is bringing into Thaioland more than 150K Baht does not have to lodge a tax return, unless that or part of that money is from income earned overseas, then that is very good.

I think it will be something in between those two extremes - we all have to wait for the details.

What we are doing now is discussing all the intracies and details of whther this is a problem or not, and in what situations is it a problem or not - if that worries you, then best to stay away.

If/when Thai RD issues a statement - then there will be a headline - their last statement was totaly rubbish.

There is a lawyer whoi has a Yourtube channel, a few do actually, and he has a 'legal' pratice that is know to have 'integity' and he has made a few viseos about this - he says we have to wait - he has been here a long time (is a USA citizen Lawyer who became a Thai citizen). He thinks they dont 'mean' to nail Expats on retirement or married, but until it is clarified how they will do this change, no one really knows.