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Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I


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2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I do not have a 'permanent home' in Thailand - I do have one in Australia. 

 

That's nice. But if you're in Thailand for 180 days or more -- you're a resident for tax purposes. That you don't have a residence status that allows you to get a Thai passport makes no difference to the taxation aspect.

 

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I am not and probably never will be a resident of Thailand and under the DTA I will pay no income taxes to Thailand - unless I earn income in Thailand.  

 

Again, if you're here for 180 or more days, you're subject to the DTA and Thai taxation. A quick glance at the OZ-Thai DTA shows a carbon copy of most English speaking countries' DTAs, all based on OECD and UN Model tax treaties. For private pensions:

 

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1. Subject to the provisions of Article 19, pensions and annuities paid to a resident of one of the Contracting States shall be taxable only in that State. [Article 19 is where gov't pensions are only taxable by the paying country.]

 

Key to the above, the the phrase: "shall be taxable ONLY in that State." This means exclusive taxation rights. As pointed out by an OZ tax accountant somewhere in all these threads, yes, this means Oz has no taxation rights on these private pensions, only Thailand. That they don't exercise this right -- because it's not remitted -- apparently doesn't negate the exclusivity. And OZ apparently doesn't have something like the saving clause found in the US DTA, which trumps the exclusivity, and allows taxation by the US, in spite of what's declared in the DTA.

 

A good deal, I guess -- if Thai taxation rates are lower than Aussie rates of taxation.

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2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Word reaches me from a friend who attended a Mazars briefing at a Embassy in Bangkok this week that Thailand is currently renegotiating several DTA's. allegedly.

 

That might trigger people of a nervous disposition.

 

On a personal note. Should it be true, I hope the UK - Thai DTA is one of them.

 

Every International Agreement should have a shelf life, somewhere at the 10 year point, to be reviewed and renewed, to ensure that it remains current, valid and fit for purpose.

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6 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Is this thread related to only UK residents in Thailand? Sometimes I'm wondering.

I think it's because our tax treaty is about 42 years old and has an absence of specific words, in the pensions area (except for Government pensions),🤨. Reading the UK revenue end information and community posts are sometimes like walking into a library with no bookshelves, though the librarian perhaps knows where most were most of the books are.😐

Hopefully the associated general procedure and tax detail 🧐 discussed (where known)  is pretty universally useful, I don't mean to be hogging the lane 🤔

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5 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

A very valid and interesting point.

 

I might own a residence in Thailand, but I am allowed to stay here in 12 month blocks. Whoch technically, could be revoked at any time.

Thanks.  But technically you are only allowed to stay in 90 days blocks.  If you do not 'report' after 90 days (allowances either side), your 'permission to stay' in Thailand is not valid - and if Thai Immigration decided, the whole 12 months period could be revoked and you could be deported - but they are usualy very understanding and prefer that you just pay a fine (which goes into the team pool).  The point being you have no legal right to stay 12 months - you must report every 90 days in order to get another 90 days - and then after 12 months you must apply to get another 12 months extension - which is broken down into 4 x 90 days permission to stay.  We are all very far from being a Resident in Thailand.

 

In anser to anyone thinking that we are tax residents because Thailand states that anyone staying in Thailand 180 days is a tax resident is irrelevent - especially under a DTA.  In Cyprus it is 2 months to be a tax resident - good luck with that I say. 

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1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

1) there will not be any double taxation

 

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

3) Where tax has been paid on pensions overseas, they will not be subject to re-tax here.

 

Something I have been saying since October.

 

Probably why Pak Chong RD told me " No need to file anything " a week ago.

Edited by The Cyclist
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1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

3) Where tax has been paid on pensions overseas, they will not be subject to re-tax here.

Where does it say this in the Sherrings note, please?  If the respective double taxation agreement does not prohibit Thailand from taxing the overseas pension, then the only thing which can be done is to credit any foreign taxes to any Thai taxes due, but if the Thai taxes are higher, then an additional payment is due.

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3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

On 23 January 2024, the RD was asked and answered as follows, paraphrased:

 

Q: If I'm not resident in Thailand for a year and I earned foreign sourced income in that year, is it taxed when I bring it into Thailand?

A: It is not taxed because you were not resident in Thailand in the year it was earned.

 

Q: What types of foreign source income is assessable income and subject to PIT under Section 41, Para 2 law?

A: ....those prescribed in Section 40 (1 to 8 ) but not including income that is exempt or on which tax does not have to be paid under the Revenue code.

 

Q; a lengthy question about tax paid on income overseas.

A; There is no double taxation in Thailand, tax paid overseas can be credited against tax payable.

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

 

Thank you for posting the Sherrings note which is very useful. In there the following is also quoted from the Q&A from the Thai Revenue department:

 

"Question: If, yearly, I invest abroad and I bring part of it back into Thailand, is the part I bring back into Thailand determined as investment capital or as assessable income?

Answer: For monies that are brought into Thailand, taxpayers have a duty to self- determine based on facts and evidence that the monies brought into Thailand are capital or assessable income."

 

Does anybody have any idea what this means in practice?  The answer is really not answering the question as they do not say what methods are supposed to be used for the separation of funds.

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12 minutes ago, K2938 said:

 

Thank you for posting the Sherrings note which is very useful. In there the following is also quoted from the Q&A from the Thai Revenue department:

 

"Question: If, yearly, I invest abroad and I bring part of it back into Thailand, is the part I bring back into Thailand determined as investment capital or as assessable income?

Answer: For monies that are brought into Thailand, taxpayers have a duty to self- determine based on facts and evidence that the monies brought into Thailand are capital or assessable income."

 

Does anybody have any idea what this means in practice?  The answer is really not answering the question as they do not say what methods are supposed to be used for the separation of funds.

I don't know but I would strongly guess that the amount initially repatriated is relative to the initial outbound investment and that the amount repatriated is the investment capital and the remainder is assessable income, when it also is repatriated. Again, pure guess here.

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15 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I hear you about the 'moral rights' issue - that is not a legal matter.  But you overlook or are not aware of one factor - the part in all DTAs about primary residence. Most Expats do not have 'residence' in Thailand - sure they are 'tax residents' but they do not have 'residence'.  I did not quote the DTA, or provide many many others, because the post would have been even longer than it was already - but check this out:-

 

2.         A person is not a resident of a Contracting State for the purposes of this Agreement if the person is liable to tax in that State in respect only of income from a source in that State.
 

3.         Where by reason of the preceding provisions, an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, the status of the person shall be determined in accordance with the following rules, applied in the order in which they are set out: 
            (a)        the person shall be deemed to be a resident solely of the Contracting
                         State in which a permanent home is available to the person;
             (b)        if a permanent home is available to the person in both Contracting States,
                         or in neither of them, the person shall be deemed to be a resident solely
                         of the Contracting State in which the person has an habitual abode;
             (c)        if the person has an habitual abode in both Contracting States, or in neither
                         of them, the person shall be deemed to be a resident solely of the Contracting
                         State with which the person's personal and economic relations are the closer.

 

I do not have a 'permanent home' in Thailand - I do have one in Australia.  I have a lot more personal (family and friends) relations in Australia than in Thailand. My economic relations are 90% with Australia - that is where all my money and wills and any legal rights I have are held - I pay tax in Australia - and I am a Citizen of Australia. I do not earn any income in Thailand anmd neither does my wife - working in Thailand would be a big factor in my economic relations.  I will always be closer to Australia personally and economically.

 

One of the reasons becoming a 'resident' in Thailand (a legal resident) is not appealing to me, is because that would change me from a long term tourist into a resident, and I would therefore become subject to a lot more Thai legal and financial obligations (it is both a give and take matter). The fact that I would have to pay a large amount of money to apply and then wait many years - and I will probably not get approved (age) - also came into my decision of course.  My wife on the other hand easily became an Aust Resident (small fee and online application - no interviews etc. - it was basically automatic. I am not and probably never will be a resident of Thailand and under the DTA I will pay no income taxes to Thailand - unless I earn income in Thailand.  

I was assuming /apparently wrongly) that you have no other tax residency other then TH so yes you are right your case may be different. Usually you only have one tax residency as most countries use the 183 day rule (AUS, US seem to be the exemption; Germany can be in some cases as well if you still have an abode in GER). On what ground does AUS rule you to be an AUS tax citizen? I think most expats with the exception of the US guys only have one tax residency as they cannot stay more then 183 in another country if they have already stayed 183 in TH. It is my understanding that the Thais can claim income tax from you all the same if the DTA does not prohibit it. In case of GER TH the DTA explicitly states that TH has the right to tax me if I live in TH and have not lived 183 in GER, no idea though about Australian DTA. Especially if you have no other tax residency (or income from the other state) TH can tax you as they please according only to their law. They could for example make up a wealth tax of 10% p.a. and charge it. Every country can make up their own law as you can see in North Korea, Iran etc no matter how outrageous it may seem to us westerners and give us nothing in return.

 

Again I still think TH will not collect or apply these taxes US IRS style but they could.

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4 minutes ago, garygooner said:

Think it would be a good idea to keep posting updated info from tax experts & also people's experiences/questions  when dealing with Thai RD.  

Absolutely agree. There is a pinned thread linked below, for this specific purpose, anyone having contact and useful information, is encouraged to post:

 

 

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Most members of ASIAN Now are of the USA or GB and they wright in this forum what they think about the DTA.

I've tread the GERMAN DTA(DBA)in the German language, recorded in the Budesgesetzblatt in 1968!

 

The following copy of § 18,2  states it very clearly in  German, English and Thai language that German pensins i.e. are not taxable in Thailand.

 

Does the running Thai Government want to break this DTA=DTA ?

 

DTADBA-18-GermanThai.JPG.7b8b1b7dd82f981265f84b3271469b63.JPG

 

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, puck2 said:

Most members of ASIAN Now are of the USA or GB and they wright in this forum what they think about the DTA.

I've tread the GERMAN DTA(DBA)in the German language, recorded in the Budesgesetzblatt in 1968!

 

The following copy of § 18,2  states it very clearly in  German, English and Thai language that German pensins i.e. are not taxable in Thailand.

 

Does the running Thai Government want to break this DTA=DTA ?

 

DTADBA-18-GermanThai.JPG.7b8b1b7dd82f981265f84b3271469b63.JPG

 

 

 

 

Firstly puck, it's ASEAN Now, not Asian now.

 

Secondly, I gather from what you have written that you haven't read much of what has been said thus far in the different threads, especially not that of the past 24 hours. The following link should explain most things, if it does not, may I suggest you read the simple tax guide that is pinned in the finance thread. Nobody is trying to break any DTA. 

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

 

 

 

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On 2/2/2024 at 4:51 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

All good points mate - I will give my opinion one by one - but nothing is certain and no one knows it all.

 

Lodging Tax Returns - there is no penalty for not lodging a tax return when you have not taxes to pay. I read it somewhere in the Code that the penalties are onbly applicable when a person does not pay income taxes that were due.  Technically, they could force everyone to lodge a return, but their current 'method of operation' is not to require a tax return to be completed when income taxes are not liable to be paid.

 

DTAs are very expensive and costly to complete - I have been told that by two tax consultants/lawyers. Both those companies stated that they do those for companies a lot, and that the only persons they have ever lodged a tax return for were extremely wealthy Thais - nil Expats. 

 

Companies Incorporated in Thailand.  Yes - companies legally based in Thailand have to pay income taxes on all monies earned globally - unless under DTAs the other Country can lay claim to income earned in their own country (USA is particularly strong on this). That same thing and associuated rules do not apply (as such) to non-juristic private persons. 

 

 

Reading your great post another red flag for me was raised. If I do not have to file a tax report and most of the expats will not do in 2025 I am sure there will be no real "safety" even after 2025 how this will all play out. Are you 100% sure that one does not have to file? In other countries for example you have to file if you earn foreign income that has not been taxed no matter how neglible the amount. I am aware that this is not really an indication for Thailand but is shows there is the possibility burried somewhere deep in the thai RD laws and directives. Thanks!

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2 hours ago, UWEB said:

You are not becoming Resident of Thailand, you are becoming Tax Resident what is quite normal all around the world if you stay longer than 180 days in a Country.

 

So what does this Green Card visa from the USA say....It says "RESIDENT".......To let people know they are a " RESIDENT" of the USA and have all the benefits and rights of being a " RESIDENT"....

 

 

And the O visa say " NON IMMIGRANT " .....To let people know that they are not a resident of Thailand....And make it clear they have zero rights or benefits of being a resident in Thailand...

Does the O visa say your a " NON IMMIGRANT "  except for taxes?.....Nope it sure does not.....

 

 

image.png.3cba5503db3930b0026b3e72bbdaa5b1.png

 

A CR1 spouse visa (also called IR1) is a green card that allows someone from another country to live in the U.S. with their spouse, a U.S. citizen or permanent resident. If you’ve been married for less than two years, you might get a CR-1 visa (conditional resident), and if you’ve been married for two years or more, you might get an IR1 visa 

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7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Firstly puck, it's ASEAN Now, not Asian now.

 

Secondly, I gather from what you have written that you haven't read much of what has been said thus far in the different threads, especially not that of the past 24 hours. The following link should explain most things, if it does not, may I suggest you read the simple tax guide that is pinned in the finance thread. Nobody is trying to break any DTA. 

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

 

 

 

Mister Lister, I'm so sorry for my awful mistake "ASIAN Now".

 

And you think that I didn't read read all threads to the new Tax problem. Maybe.

 

But that is not the problem. It seems that YOU didn't understand my yellow marked text of the DTA between Germany and Thailand. There you can read (quote):

"... peonsion and other payments for the past employment .... shell be exempt from tax in the other Contracting State"

 

That means for me, if Thailand does't respect a DTA, then it is disrespecting internation law !

 

And what should has to be respected in Thailand: international treaties or selfish (Thai) tax law???  Acting against the DTA is breaking international law.  If Thailand doesn't respect the DTA, you cannot trust Thailand political and law system in the future.

 

In this case of Thai tax planing, how much has been transfered maybe a problem.  There are different ways to do it. When/If my German pension is transfered to Thailand it should be tax-free according to the mentined DTA.

 

BTW, how to improve that I only transfer a part of my German pension? And will it be recognised? The Thai tax-offices will be overextendet with all these complicated rules. Srettha does not yet know how many rocks will fall down on his head and his coalition.

 

Edited by puck2
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