Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Your implication that Thailand might violate the DTA ( "various tax treaties do not limit the extent...") is nonsensical. And, I don't even know what point you were trying to make. Suggest you just flush it,  unless you finally figure out that there's something germane to be said re the power and limitations of a DTA.

 

As for the man in the street being an idiot, and not understanding double taxation -- you can't say there will be no taxation in Thailand, then say, if so, you'll get a credit to avoid double taxation. You have to find better words; but as written now, the second sentence contradicts the first sentence. The man in the street may think you're the idiot.

 

This is the first I've ever read any of your tax guide. Have kept abreast of concerns by just reading the critiques from the gang hanging out on these threads. Actually, a nice sample of expats.

So in other words, you want me to rewrite it and resubmit it, until you're happy with it! Hmmm!

 

I did not even write or remotely suggest or even imply that the man in the street is an idiot, those are your words and your sentiment alone! 

 

I guess I'll waste a couple of hours scrolling back through this thread to try and find out where the offending para's were lifted from, whoa betide whoever it was!

[chang50]

15 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The first question is whether you actually need a TIN, do you/will you have taxable income in excess of the threshold this year?

 

If the answer is no, I'd wait until next year and do as advised. If yes and you plan to file a return, I'd take steps to get one. Which type of Revenue office did you go to in Jomtiem, District, Region or small local? The bigger the office, the more likely they are to understand the rules.

 

But Jomtiem has such a high concentration of foreigners, it may be harder to obtain one there than other parts of the country so this is new ground for me. I can usually always get anything done that I need to at the District office in Chiang Mai but TIN's are only issued from the Regional office which is located elsewhere in town (at least that used to be the case). You may have been fobbed off because they can't issue you with one at that office and they didn't want to admit it.

 

Assuming you have a genuine need and desire to file a Thai tax return next January, I would go to the biggest tax office in my area, armed with proof I am a year round resident and that there is a need to file a tax return. Asking for a TIN doesn't require a bank statement (which is another odd thing about what you wrote) but they may want to see proof that you have a legitimate need to file. You could say that you receive rental income in Thailand, along with money/income from overseas and that you need to file....stand your ground and go up the chain if need be. 

 

Perhaps others who have applied for TIN's at Jomtiem successfully, can comment?

 

Thanks Mike I'm just so frustrated at the minute..basically this is a shambles.I probably wouldn't have owed tax as i only bring in 640000 baht p.a. and my allowances and deductions are 560000 plus credits from the uk thai dta.I just stupidly tried to do the right thing..

 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, chang50 said:

29 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The first question is whether you actually need a TIN, do you/will you have taxable income in excess of the threshold this year?

 

If the answer is no, I'd wait until next year and do as advised. If yes and you plan to file a return, I'd take steps to get one. Which type of Revenue office did you go to in Jomtiem, District, Region or small local? The bigger the office, the more likely they are to understand the rules.

 

But Jomtiem has such a high concentration of foreigners, it may be harder to obtain one there than other parts of the country so this is new ground for me. I can usually always get anything done that I need to at the District office in Chiang Mai but TIN's are only issued from the Regional office which is located elsewhere in town (at least that used to be the case). You may have been fobbed off because they can't issue you with one at that office and they didn't want to admit it.

 

Assuming you have a genuine need and desire to file a Thai tax return next January, I would go to the biggest tax office in my area, armed with proof I am a year round resident and that there is a need to file a tax return. Asking for a TIN doesn't require a bank statement (which is another odd thing about what you wrote) but they may want to see proof that you have a legitimate need to file. You could say that you receive rental income in Thailand, along with money/income from overseas and that you need to file....stand your ground and go up the chain if need be. 

 

Perhaps others who have applied for TIN's at Jomtiem successfully, can comment?

 

Thanks Mike I'm just so frustrated at the minute..basically this is a shambles.I probably wouldn't have owed tax as i only bring in 640000 baht p.a. and my allowances and deductions are 560000 plus credits from the uk thai dta.I just stupidly tried to do the right thing..

 

I understand the sentiment and the reasons for doing what you tried to do but the reality seems to be that you don't actually need to request a TIN, in that respect, what you were told at the tax office is correct. 

[JimGant]

15 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The first question is whether you actually need a TIN, do you/will you have taxable income in excess of the threshold this year?

 Ah, what threshold is that? 120,000baht that PWC says the Code stipulates as when you need to file a return, even if no tax owed?

 

Quote

The following individuals are required to file income tax returns for income earned in the preceding tax year irrespective of whether there is any tax due:
• A person who has no spouse and earns income of more than
Baht 60,000
• A person who has no spouse and earns income under category
(1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 120,000
• A person who has a spouse and earns income of more than Baht
120,000
• A person who has a spouse and earns income under category (1)
(salaries and wages) of more than Baht 220,000.

 

This completely defies logic. My workers, even the new hire earning min wage (400bt/day), will earn 125000 per year, and thus, under the guidance, will have to file a tax return. Insane. You think I'm going to give him, and the other higher paid workers, the bad news that they now have to file tax returns -- by hiring, and paying, someone who knows how? Yeah, right. And do you think I'd advise an expat, who after subtracting out deductions, allowances, and the 150k freebie from his assessable income -- comes up with a negative number -- that he must file a tax return, just 'cause his assessable income exceeded 120k? Come on, man -- I didn't advise tax clients over all those years to take the stupid road (fortunately, the US Tax Code has few stupid roads - just gray roads, that two reasonable folks can arrive at two reasonable alternatives).

 

Anyway, Mike, if you don't want to give advice that's in favor of your client, er reader -- even tho' there's no penalty for not filing if no taxable income -- it's up to you.

 

But, if you meant "threshold" was where assessable income, less TEDA, equaled a positive taxable income -- then I apologize.

[JimGant]

29 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

So in other words, you want me to rewrite it and resubmit it, until you're happy with it! Hmmm!

I could care less if I'm ever happy with it -- as said, I haven't even bothered reading it. Just want the confusion factors eliminated, so the man on the street, wandering in for a look see, sees facts, not word pies.

 

Quote

I did not even write or remotely suggest or even imply that the man in the street is an idiot, those are your words and your sentiment alone! 

 

I guess I took too giant a leap in reading between the lines with this:

 

Quote

Sadly that is not the case, the man in the street and the aged pensioner assume that the word reatxe means that money will be taken away, rather than given back.

 

 

[JimGant]

37 minutes ago, chang50 said:

Thanks Mike I'm just so frustrated at the minute..basically this is a shambles.I probably wouldn't have owed tax as i only bring in 640000 baht p.a. and my allowances and deductions are 560000 plus credits from the uk thai dta.I just stupidly tried to do the right thing..

 

The right thing, according to who? You obviously have no Thai taxable income. So, as many of us here have said (except Mike), you have no tax obligation, no taxes owed, no fines or penalties for not filing, as no taxes owed -- so why the blazes file a Thai tax return?! Tell me -- are you of the opinion you should have filed because you had an assessable income over 120k bt? If so, does that make any sense to you?

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

The right thing, according to who? You obviously have no Thai taxable income. So, as many of us here have said (except Mike), you have no tax obligation, no taxes owed, no fines or penalties for not filing, as no taxes owed -- so why the blazes file a Thai tax return?! Tell me -- are you of the opinion you should have filed because you had an assessable income over 120k bt? If so, does that make any sense to you?

 

You seem to have recently created your own version of the things I have said but I'm not sure why that is. I replied to that poster by saying:

 

" The first question is whether you actually need a TIN, do you/will you have taxable income in excess of the threshold this year?

 

I understand you don't want to participate in the creation of the Simple Guide and that the obstructers are your posting chums, but really,....!

 

If the answer is no, I'd wait until next year and do as advised". 

 

 

[Ben Zioner]

Today I have received a letter from UBS requesting a [Thai] TIN.

 

I was about to send them my PIN but got second thoughts. Since I have the so called LTR/WP visa, can I tell them that not of money transiting through UBS is assessable in Thailand and that therefore I have no TIN to provide? 

 

I am not sure I want to do that, because I wouldn't like it if they closed my accounts. But their letter was threatening at all, a reminder might be though..

[Yumthai]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

I am not sure I want to do that, because I wouldn't like it if they closed my accounts.

Why would they close your account if you are legally exempted from tax and not required to have a TIN?

 

[Mike Lister]

30 minutes ago, JimGant said:

I could care less if I'm ever happy with it -- as said, I haven't even bothered reading it. 

 

I guess I took too giant a leap in reading between the lines

 

Is anybody else here picking up the same vibes of a strong community and team spirit and wanting to pitch in, share knowledge, participate and help other members! It's so touching. 😞

Edited April 9 by Mike Lister

[chang50]

37 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

The right thing, according to who? You obviously have no Thai taxable income. So, as many of us here have said (except Mike), you have no tax obligation, no taxes owed, no fines or penalties for not filing, as no taxes owed -- so why the blazes file a Thai tax return?! Tell me -- are you of the opinion you should have filed because you had an assessable income over 120k bt? If so, does that make any sense to you?

Yes I honestly believed that.My only defence is there are many many things in this world that we have to do at least by the letter of the law that make zero sense to me.

[scottiejohn]

I know you cannot answer everyone's queries as they are too far ranging!

But  what about a format for the major countries that answers the basic single OAP/retiree with no other income from their home country?

In the following case;

Would a basic single OAP/retiree with no other income from UK using the 800,000 (already in the bank pre 2024) in the bank method be liable for tax and if not would he need to obtain a TIN and file a tax return.

An answer to the specific question above would be much appreciated!

 

I also think that guide with a quick change of country with the above same same info would  be a great help to the many expat retirees who meet the above and do not have any additional income! 

Those expats with more complicated financial situations are in a different league to those poor mortals who no longer pay tax in their home countries!

Edited April 9 by scottiejohn

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

 Ah, what threshold is that? 120,000baht that PWC says the Code stipulates as when you need to file a return, even if no tax owed?

 

 

This completely defies logic. My workers, even the new hire earning min wage (400bt/day), will earn 125000 per year, and thus, under the guidance, will have to file a tax return. Insane. You think I'm going to give him, and the other higher paid workers, the bad news that they now have to file tax returns -- by hiring, and paying, someone who knows how? Yeah, right. And do you think I'd advise an expat, who after subtracting out deductions, allowances, and the 150k freebie from his assessable income -- comes up with a negative number -- that he must file a tax return, just 'cause his assessable income exceeded 120k? Come on, man -- I didn't advise tax clients over all those years to take the stupid road (fortunately, the US Tax Code has few stupid roads - just gray roads, that two reasonable folks can arrive at two reasonable alternatives).

 

Anyway, Mike, if you don't want to give advice that's in favor of your client, er reader -- even tho' there's no penalty for not filing if no taxable income -- it's up to you.

 

But, if you meant "threshold" was where assessable income, less TEDA, equaled a positive taxable income -- then I apologize.

 

You quoted something, presumably the PWC handbook? It said:

 

"The following individuals are required to file income tax returns for income earned in the preceding tax year irrespective of whether there is any tax due":

 

Then you wrote, "This completely defies logic".

 

Later you asked a poster, aggressively, "so why the blazes file a Thai tax return", when that person had 640k of assessable income.

 

Respectfully, you are a retired US cpa who lives in Thailand. PWC is a 1,600 person tax firm in Thailand that is one of the Big 4 Global Accounting Firms that employs 364,000 people globally.

 

Who are we going to trust has the right answer and does it really matter that it defies your logic? 

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

49 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

I know you cannot answer everyone's queries as they are too far ranging!

But  what about a format for the major countries that answers the basic single OAP/retiree with no other income from their home country?

In the following case;

Would a basic single OAP/retiree with no other income from UK using the 800,000 (already in the bank pre 2024) in the bank method be liable for tax and if not would he need to obtain a TIN and file a tax return.

An answer to the specific question above would be much appreciated!

 

I also think that guide with a quick change of country with the above same same info would  be a great help to the many expat retirees who meet the above and do not have any additional income! 

Those expats with more complicated financial situations are in a different league to those poor mortals who no longer pay tax in their home countries!

I suggested that earlier and asked members from different countries who have been active in these tax threads if they were prepared to answer questions from other members from their respective country and prepare basic material for the tax guide. They all refused. Apparently it's easier and more fun to sit back and just snipe from time to time.

Edited April 9 by Mike Lister

[Klonko]

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

Why would they close your account if you are legally exempted from tax and not required to have a TIN?

 

Because irrational bureaucracy is not limited to Thailand. If there is a principle that all offshore tax residents should provide their tax identification number in order to facilitate CRS-exchange, bank compliance may rather close an account than work with exemptions. I have two Swiss bank accounts and one bank (not UBS) already warned me to provide a TIN. 
 

I will rather get a Thai TIN, if necessary by declaring assessable income or some taxable income, than having accounts closed. 
 

 

[scottiejohn]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I suggested that earlier and asked members from different countries who have been active in these tax threads if they were prepared to answer questions from other members from their respective country and prepare basic material for the tax guide. They all refused. Apparently it's easier and more fun to sit back and just snipe from time to time.

Thanks for that but do you actually have an answer to my specific two questions?

a) Would tax be liable? 

b) if not would a TIN and a return be required?

 

Answers might just get some other nationalities to respond in like!

[Mike Lister]

57 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

I know you cannot answer everyone's queries as they are too far ranging!

But  what about a format for the major countries that answers the basic single OAP/retiree with no other income from their home country?

In the following case;

Would a basic single OAP/retiree with no other income from UK using the 800,000 (already in the bank pre 2024) in the bank method be liable for tax and if not would he need to obtain a TIN and file a tax return.

An answer to the specific question above would be much appreciated!

 

I also think that guide with a quick change of country with the above same same info would  be a great help to the many expat retirees who meet the above and do not have any additional income! 

Those expats with more complicated financial situations are in a different league to those poor mortals who no longer pay tax in their home countries!

I assume from what you have written that your only source of income in Thailand is the UK State pension, is that correct?

 

Other questions include:

 

How much do you receive, in Baht, each year or monthly, (approx is OK).

 

Are you married in Thailand?

Children?

 

Do you pay for health or life insurance in Thailand?

 

 

[Mike Lister]

12 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I assume from what you have written that your only source of income in Thailand is the UK State pension, is that correct?

 

Other questions include:

 

How much do you receive, in Baht, each year or monthly, (approx is OK).

 

Are you married in Thailand?

Children?

 

Do you pay for health or life insurance in Thailand?

 

 

I guess that was use with the emoji scottie, sorry, but I can't answer your question without that info.

 

 

[SHA 2 BKK]

2 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Today I have received a letter from UBS requesting a [Thai] TIN.

 

I was about to send them my PIN but got second thoughts. Since I have the so called LTR/WP visa, can I tell them that not of money transiting through UBS is assessable in Thailand and that therefore I have no TIN to provide? 

 

I am not sure I want to do that, because I wouldn't like it if they closed my accounts. But their letter was threatening at all, a reminder might be though..

I have told my bank (ANZ Australia) that as I have an LTR I am not required to have a TIN.  So far so good. Australian Banks seem to understand that some jurisdictions don’t require a TIN.   But every three months or so I get a call from one of their Due Diligence teams. 

[scottiejohn]

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I guess that was use with the emoji scottie, sorry, but I can't answer your question without that info.

 

 

Sorry I am confused as you seem to be answering yourself!  I did not post that confused emoji, (especially after out last exchange) Honest it was not me and would have been self defeating.

 

30 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I assume from what you have written that your only source of income in Thailand is the UK State pension, is that correct?

 

Other questions include:

 

How much do you receive, in Baht, each year or monthly, (approx is OK).

 

Are you married in Thailand?

Children?

 

Do you pay for health or life insurance in Thailand?

 

 

I thought my question was fairly simple. 

I was not talking specifically about myself but about the average single UK OAP on full UK pension with no dependents! Why the extra questions?

What I am asking is If in the above case and ALL the UK pension was remitted to Thailand would the same two questions arise?

 

How much do you receive, in Baht, each year or monthly, (approx is OK).

In my case I only bring into the country approx. 25,000per month as my partner has a business and my 800,000 has been here for years!

 

Are you married in Thailand?

No

 

Children?

No

 

Do you pay for health or life insurance in Thailand?

No

Edited April 9 by scottiejohn

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, scottiejohn said:

Sorry I am confused as you seem to be answering yourself!  I did not post that confused emoji, (especially after out last exchange) Honest it was not me and would have been self defeating.

 

I thought my question was fairly simple.

I was not talking specifically about myself but about the average single UK OAP on full UK pension with no dependents!

If in the above case and ALL the UK pension was remitted to Thailand would the same two questions arise?

 

In my case I only bring into the country approx. 25,000per month as my partner has a business and my 800,000 has been here for years!

The value of the State pension varies from person to person, some are on the new full pension, others are on the old pension scale, you don't say which full pension. Many have only paid X number of years.......the differences can be very large. Lastly is exchange rates which can change the amounts yet again, based on when the funds are remitted.

 

Thai tax deductions/allowances vary based on personal circumstances, married, kids, education fees, health insurance, life insurance, financial products etc, the difference can also be substantial, even if no dependents.

 

Without that level of detail, it's impossible to say, there is no such thing as average in this.

[scottiejohn]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The value of the State pension varies from person to person, some are on the new full pension, others are on the old pension scale, you don't say which full pension. Many have only paid X number of years.......the differences can be very large. Lastly is exchange rates which can change the amounts yet again, based on when the funds are remitted.

 

Thai tax deductions/allowances vary based on personal circumstances, married, kids, education fees, health insurance, life insurance, financial products etc, the difference can also be substantial, even if no dependents.

 

Without that level of detail, it's impossible to say, there is no such thing as average in this.

I answered all your questions and if that is the best you can come up with then all I can say is that you deserve this confused emoji from ME!

What a waste of time and effort!

Edited April 9 by scottiejohn

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, scottiejohn said:

You now have a confused emoji from ME!

What a waste of time and effort!

As the man says, I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you!

[scottiejohn]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

As the man says, I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you!

Why did you ask me questions which I answered and then spout forth with the above non answers?

[Mike Lister]

Just now, scottiejohn said:

Why did you ask me questions which I answered and then spout forth with the above non answers?

You didn't answer my questions:

 

"education fees, health insurance, life insurance, financial products etc, the difference can also be substantial, even if no dependents".

 

The value of the State pension varies from person to person, some are on the new full pension, others are on the old pension scale, you don't say which full pension. 

[Yumthai]

59 minutes ago, Klonko said:

Because irrational bureaucracy is not limited to Thailand. If there is a principle that all offshore tax residents should provide their tax identification number in order to facilitate CRS-exchange, bank compliance may rather close an account than work with exemptions. I have two Swiss bank accounts and one bank (not UBS) already warned me to provide a TIN. 
 

I will rather get a Thai TIN, if necessary by declaring assessable income or some taxable income, than having accounts closed. 

Maybe it's time to move to more flexible and closer jurisdictions like priority/premium banking in Singapore or HK as they certainly have more understanding of a Thai resident situation.

 

Hopefully decentralized blockchain adoption is on its way giving back his full money control to each individual.

[Mike Lister]

12 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Why did you ask me questions which I answered and then spout forth with the above non answers?

I can't waste any more time on this, you work out:

 

over age 65 allowance - 190k

Personal allowance - 60k

50% of pension to 100k - assume 100k

zero rated tax band - 150k

 

add those up and deduct from total baht income for year, balance (if any) is taxable at 5% (to 300k and 10% above that (state pension unlikely to reach 10% band)).

 

If other deductions and allowance, add to the list at the top.

[scottiejohn]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I can't waste any more time on this, you work out:

 

over age 65 allowance - 190k

Personal allowance - 60k

50% of pension to 100k - assume 100k

zero rated tax band - 150k

 

add those up and deduct from total baht income for year, balance (if any) is taxable at 5% (to 300k and 10% above that (state pension unlikely to reach 10% band)).

 

If other deductions and allowance, add to the list at the top.

If not taxable do you still have to get a TIN and/or submit a tax return!

[samtam]

On 4/8/2024 at 4:04 AM, UKresonant said:

For myself I speculate;-

Under 65

  60000THB (personal allowance)

150000THB (nil tax band)

  70000THB (Taxed only in UK. Gov pension)

 

The above all net of tax, based on actual  remittance, landing in the Thai Bank Account.

 

Above 65 can add 190000 old age allowance!

 

Then there is the 50% of pension deductible (amongst others ) up to 100k Baht.

 

So for me generally, I think

380k THB Under 65

570k THB Over 65. 

 

Additionally, savings before 1st Jan 2024, That you can prove

 

Additionally savings principle created from earnings etc whilst not Thai Tax resident ongoing years 

 

Additionally the principle arising from inheritance if isolated, but generally as Thai IHT allowance is reasonably high.

 

But it will all be down to your own personal circumstance, that's where reading the tax guide may help you.

 

Out with your question peramiters, there is the 5% tax band which would add another 142k THB net, quite painlessly.

 

Would not be worth getting into DTA complexity, except for the 'only taxed in UK' aspect of my small Gov pension, until remitting a more substantial amount.  " yes I can prove pensions, but only sending my .Gov pension and savings currently" if asked. 

 

All very approx, counted on fingers and toes 

 

Can you help me out with what I'm missing.

 

I'm over 65 and I come to a figure of THB500k non taxable:

 

60k Personal Care Allowance

100k (up to) Pension Income Allowance

190k Over 65

150k Zero-rated

500k Total

 

....what's the additional 70k?

 

Thanks.

[JackGats]

7 hours ago, chang50 said:

Very few I suspect including sections of the revenue department.I went to Jomtien tax office this morning after following the simple tax guide to get a tin number as per the law and came away empty handed.They told my wife and I to come back next year with a bank statement.This will be way past the mandated 60 days deadline for bringing assessable income into Thailand and my residence cert. might be expired after 30 days.A total waste of time and money!

You should have told them you needed a TIN to open a bank account in Germany (or Spain or Croatia or ...). I bet they'd have issued you with one there and then.