The recently proposed potential tax assessments

[Tony M]

You will no doubt be aware of the concerns of many ex-pats, Brits included, over the proposals of the new current Thai government. Probably, like many of us, you are as confused as we are. However, are you aware of any definite proposals, specifically the taxation of funds transferred fron the UK to Thailand for any purpose e,g. house/condo purchase, car purchase, etc. The concerns are that the proposals seem to indicate that any funds transferred into Thailand will be treated as "income', and will be  asessed as income, and therefore become taxable.   I am, of course, aware of the double taxation agreements, but the feeling is that this DTA applies only to pensions. Is that correct ?

 

I have income in the UK from property rental. That income is declared on my annual self-assessment form and is taxed. However, it looks as though the Thai government may now want to tax it again as "income" from overseas, even though it is already assessed for tax in the UK.  Can you clarify  ?   

 

Can you also say if the Embassy will be approaching the Thai government for more clarification on this proposal to tax all income from Thai "tax residents" (which includes those of us on annual extensions of stay, although we are not normally considered to be anything other than "visitors"  by the Thai government). 

 

Can you also clarify that, if we are assessed for tax on all remittances to Thailand, whether it is pensions, savings or whatever, then a similar reciprocal arrangement will be put in place for remittances from Thailand into UK, despite the DTA in place and despite the purpose of those remittances ?

Edited September 20, 2023 by Tony M

[Trippy]

I don't think anybody knows anything at the moment. Just have to wait and see. 

 

[Tony M]

4 minutes ago, Trippy said:

I don't think anybody knows anything at the moment. Just have to wait and see. 

 

Yes, I understand that, but if nobody asks the Embassy to get involved, then they won't. If you wait for them to be pro-active, then you'll wait a long time.

[BE88]

If you are taxed in your country the reciprocity of the agreements applies so theoretically you should only present documents proving taxation in England and not be taxed here in Thailand.

[dingdongrb]

13 minutes ago, Tony M said:

Yes, I understand that, but if nobody asks the Embassy to get involved, then they won't. If you wait for them to be pro-active, then you'll wait a long time.

So you're expecting 'the Embassy' to get on this forum and reply to your post?

[circa02]

1 hour ago, dingdongrb said:

So you're expecting 'the Embassy' to get on this forum and reply to your post?

They've engaged before I believe, there seems no logical reason they wouldn't choose a communication medium popular with expats

[dingdongrb]

50 minutes ago, circa02 said:

They've engaged before I believe, there seems no logical reason they wouldn't choose a communication medium popular with expats

Really? When has an Embassy representative actually posted on this forum and posted something official?

[circa02]

37 minutes ago, dingdongrb said:

Really? When has an Embassy representative actually posted on this forum and posted something official?

In this very forum see example above.

Strange seems my original reply was silently truncated/edited.

[K2938]

6 hours ago, BE88 said:

If you are taxed in your country the reciprocity of the agreements applies so theoretically you should only present documents proving taxation in England and not be taxed here in Thailand

Not necessarily at all.  There are many types of income which are not covered by double taxation agreements.  Also, they could consider capital (i.e. not income, but principal submission) to be taxable.

[Eff1n2ret]

A week has passed, and the OP's questions remain without answer or even acknowledgement by the Consulate. Perhaps they're waiting for "the line to take" from King Charles Street.

I recently saw YouTube interviews with the Ambassador and the Consul by a guy who might have been auditioning for Hello Magazine. The faces may change but the service remains the same.

[OJAS]

On 9/20/2023 at 5:28 PM, Tony M said:

the feeling is that this DTA applies only to pensions. Is that correct ?

 

I have income in the UK from property rental. That income is declared on my annual self-assessment form and is taxed.

I have attached below a link to the current DTA between the UK and Thailand, from which it should be apparent that it is not confined to pensions:-

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

In particular income from your UK property rental is covered by Article 7, as will be the capital gain from its possible eventual sale by Article 14(1).

 

Pensions are dealt with in Article 19(2), but not all pensions are covered by the DTA: only those relating to public sector occupational pension schemes (Civil Service, local authority, police, military, NHS, etc). Private sector schemes are not covered - as is not, more crucially in the case of most of us, the UK State Pension, for which I have calculated that I would be theoretically liable to an annual tax payment to the Thai RD on my perpetually frozen pension of around 7,000 THB or 160 GBP. Much good would such a "contribution" on my part do to alleviating the Thai national debt!

 

What I personally find extremely worrying in all this, though, is that, once it dawns on those numbskulls in the Thai Revenue Department that the amounts they'll be able to screw us expats for by way of tax are likely to be severely constrained  by the terms of the DTA's entered into with not only the UK but also other Western countries, their reaction would simply be to rip up these DTA's unilaterally. I would therefore like to think that the Western diplomatic corps as a whole in Bangkok would be sufficiently geared up to ensure that swift and appropriate international retaliatory action was targetted at those responsible in the RD and more widely the Thai government as a whole, should such unacceptably outrageous actions ever come to pass.  

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by OJAS

[cleopatra2]

33 minutes ago, OJAS said:

I have attached below a link to the current DTA between the UK and Thailand, from which it should be apparent that it is not confined to pensions:-

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

In particular income from your UK property rental is covered by Article 7, as will be the capital gain from its possible eventual sale by Article 14(1).

 

Pensions are dealt with in Article 19(2), but not all pensions are covered by the DTA: only those relating to public sector occupational pension schemes (Civil Service, local authority, police, military, NHS, etc). Private sector schemes are not covered - as is not, more crucially in the case of most of us, the UK State Pension, for which I have calculated that I would be theoretically liable to an annual tax payment to the Thai RD on my perpetually frozen pension of around 7,000 THB or 160 GBP. Much good would such a "contribution" on my part do to alleviating the Thai national debt!

 

What I personally find extremely worrying in all this, though, is that, once it dawns on those numbskulls in the Thai Revenue Department that the amounts they'll be able to screw us expats for by way of tax are likely to be severely constrained  by the terms of the DTA's entered into with not only the UK but also other Western countries, their reaction would simply be to rip up these DTA's unilaterally. I would therefore like to think that the Western diplomatic corps as a whole in Bangkok would be sufficiently geared up to ensure that swift and appropriate international retaliatory action was targetted at those responsible in the RD and more widely the Thai government as a whole, should such unacceptably outrageous actions ever come to pass.  

 

Do not forget Pensions will be covered under Article 23. Thus any tax paid in the UK on these sources of income can be used  as credit for Thai tax due ( for pension income).

Edited October 1, 2023 by cleopatra2

[CTwelve]

I think it is worth looking at the facts as we know them. 

 

The main purpose is to close the 1 year loophole that some people have been using to avoid paying tax. They are also targeting profits made from external Stock/Forex/Crypto trading where no tax is being paid.

 

It states that tourists or countries with double tax agreements are exempt, but no further info on the specifics or future reporting requirements.

 

My opinion is they are cracking down on general tax evasion and not looking to impose additional taxes on previously taxed income. The info is a bit vague on what is going to happen but I think people with pensions or previously taxed savings income will likely be fine. 

 

If earning money from abroad and it is being taxed abroad then that should not be liable for further taxation.

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2652846/amendment-to-see-overseas-income-taxed

Edited October 4, 2023 by CTwelve

[Eff1n2ret]

17 hours ago, CTwelve said:

If earning money from abroad and it is being taxed abroad then that should not be liable for further taxation.

Let's hope that our representatives are prepared to make that argument vigorously if it comes to it, and also argue that if the Thai authorities want evidence that income has already been taxed, that should be a one-off event for pensioners at least. We shouldn't have to jump through yet another hoop every year.

[retarius]

On 9/20/2023 at 5:36 PM, Trippy said:

I don't think anybody knows anything at the moment. Just have to wait and see. 

 

The big problem I see with waiting and seeing is that you might find it too late to enact any plan before you know anything definite. I will become a non resident of Thailand for tax purposes spending less than 180 days year here. I am lucky to have another residence when I can spend the time but I need to put my affairs in order here within the next three months, or so. 

[topt]

On 10/1/2023 at 5:50 PM, cleopatra2 said:

Do not forget Pensions will be covered under Article 23. Thus any tax paid in the UK on these sources of income can be used  as credit for Thai tax due ( for pension income).

How sure are you on that? ( I hope you are right)

The reason I ask is that in the Digest of DTAs produced by HMRC it states that Pensions (other than govt/civil service) are specifically excluded from the DTA..............

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/710099/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

 

See page 34, Thailand  and note 4.  

[fulhamster]

On 9/20/2023 at 5:54 PM, BE88 said:

If you are taxed in your country the reciprocity of the agreements applies so theoretically you should only present documents proving taxation in England and not be taxed here in Thailand.

You mean payslips or a P60 ?

[fulhamster]

On 10/5/2023 at 12:05 PM, retarius said:

The big problem I see with waiting and seeing is that you might find it too late to enact any plan before you know anything definite. I will become a non resident of Thailand for tax purposes spending less than 180 days year here. I am lucky to have another residence when I can spend the time but I need to put my affairs in order here within the next three months, or so. 

So if I left Thailand every 179 days I would not be considered as a resident ?

[BE88]

1 hour ago, fulhamster said:

So if I left Thailand every 179 days I would not be considered as a resident ?

Yes, you would have considered for Thai authority just a non resident.

Edited October 12, 2023 by BE88

[Eff1n2ret]

5 hours ago, fulhamster said:

On 9/20/2023 at 5:54 PM, BE88 said:

If you are taxed in your country the reciprocity of the agreements applies so theoretically you should only present documents proving taxation in England and not be taxed here in Thailand.

You mean payslips or a P60

Who knows what would be acceptable, who would require it, and whether they would demand some verification, which doubtless the Consulate will be unwilling to provide - as they already profess their inability to verify sources of income for immigration purposes? 

[OJAS]

On 10/12/2023 at 5:28 PM, Eff1n2ret said:

Who knows what would be acceptable, who would require it, and whether they would demand some verification, which doubtless the Consulate will be unwilling to provide - as they already profess their inability to verify sources of income for immigration purposes? 

Suspect that the best we could hope for from the Embassy - should the RD, in the event, insist on verification of some UK tax-related document - would be confirmation of an agreement they had reached with the RD that a formally legalised version of said document would satisfy the verification requirement.

 

Just imagine the potential bureaucratic nightmare of having to submit ourselves to the cumbersome process set out in the link below annually in the case of P60's and, heaven forbid, monthly in the case of pay statements, for instance!

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b173648e5274a190383bc14/Legalisation_info_June_2018.pdf

 

[Eff1n2ret]

Just a bump to this thread, in the light of this article:-

 

Tax change for expats living in Thailand - Thai Examiner

 

Tony M's questions in the OP, which have been ignored by the Consulate, seem to be even more pertinent, and it would be nice to have some confirmation that our representatives understand the potential implications for us expats and are prepared to do something about it.

[Tony M]

With reference to my original post in September last year, is there any reason why the British Embassy has not addressed the initilal query ? As I understand it, the Swiss Embassy has now arrranged a "town hall" meeting for Swiss citizens, at which a representative of the Thailand Revenue Department will answer questions from those attending, and will respond to emails on the subject of the "new" tax requirements.

 

Why hasn't the Britsish Embassy arranged something similar, and do you intend to do so in order to inform British citizens in Thailand of what is/will be required this year ? 

[fulhamster]

Has anyone guessed how much in pensions has not been transferred in January alone ??

Many expats, including myself, have brought over a year's funds in one go in December, and have no intention of bringing over any more (circumstances allowing)until this tax situation is adequately explained

[Tony M]

The Swiss Embassy has now promulgated a video of their town hall meeting with a member of the Thai Revenue Department.  You (the British Embassy), on the other hand, have not even bothered to respond to any of the posts on this subject. Could you explain why that is ?  Are you intending to offer some guidance to British citizens living in Thailand, or not ?  This is a "Q&A" forum, but the "Q"s are not being "A"ed. Is it that you cannot be bothered, or is the question of taxation of Britsih citizens abroad too diffficult for you to respond to ?

[soi3eddie]

On 3/2/2024 at 4:55 AM, Tony M said:

The Swiss Embassy has now promulgated a video of their town hall meeting with a member of the Thai Revenue Department.  You (the British Embassy), on the other hand, have not even bothered to respond to any of the posts on this subject. Could you explain why that is ?  Are you intending to offer some guidance to British citizens living in Thailand, or not ?  This is a "Q&A" forum, but the "Q"s are not being "A"ed. Is it that you cannot be bothered, or is the question of taxation of Britsih citizens abroad too diffficult for you to respond to ?

 

if ever a reply is given, expect it to be along the lines of "taxation in Thailand is a matter for the Thai revenue department, refer to them".

 

[Tony M]

3 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

 

if ever a reply is given, expect it to be along the lines of "taxation in Thailand is a matter for the Thai revenue department, refer to them".

 

Of ourse it is, but I'm not asking the Embassy to try to get the legislation off the books. I'm asking for more clarification of the legislation as it applies to British citizen tax residents in Thailand. Just like the Swiss Embassy did.

[OJAS]

On 3/4/2024 at 3:27 PM, Tony M said:

Of ourse it is, but I'm not asking the Embassy to try to get the legislation off the books. I'm asking for more clarification of the legislation as it applies to British citizen tax residents in Thailand. Just like the Swiss Embassy did.

 

IMHO we can go whistle for anything (meaningful or otherwise) from the Embassy on this whole issue. But we do at least have this excellent thread on here originated by @Mike Lister (who is a fellow Brit) to guide us through this potential minefield:

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1319807-personal-income-tax-guide-for-foreigners-thailand/

 

Unfortunately the sad reality appears from my viewpoint to be that, as far as we expat retirees in particular are concerned, the Embassy see their role these days as being confined to liaising with zeal and gusto between relevant parts of the UK (FCDO, HMRC, HMPO & DWP) and Thai (MOFA, MOPH, RD & the Immigration Bureau) government machines in developing joint initiatives aimed solely at making our lives here in LOS just as awkward and difficult for us as they humanly can be.