ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[Isaan sailor]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by many Western countries. Given that Israel, Egypt and European agencies have a pretty good grip on personnel belonging to the organization, wouldn't worry about that much.

Thank you.  I certainly hope you’re right.  But we should stay vigilant. 

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Both sides seem to be very low on self reflection.

True to a degree. In Israel, at least, there's a sizeable (not majority) crowd either willing to acknowledge wrongs, or open to accept a compromise. On the Palestinian side, for many reasons, it's less of thing. But the bane, IMO, of both sides is mainly cowardly and poor leadership.

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Ridiculous. Israel is under a totally unprovoked attack, once more. And strangely the victim seem to be blamed in this thread. There is only one reason for that.

The first word captures the essence of your posts quite well.

[steven100]

makes a change from the usual Ukraine and Russia war ....   now we got two fights ...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by steven100

[novacova]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

That only works if you are religious in any way. Going back centuries religion has caused more deaths than any wars between any countries.

 

 

Really? What religions were Mao Zejong and Joseph Stalin? Oh right…Marxism. Two of the largest mass murders that ever existed.

[MrMojoRisin]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

My point was that Hamas is not actively or effectively 'judged'. The 'comparison' bit is irrelevant.

Israel, on the other hand, is  regularly censured for any transgression. So if Israel and the Hamas are both 'in the same bucket', how is it that only one gets blamed?

What are you talking about? Hamas has been judged and declared a terrorist organisation. It has been hit with the sanctions that come along with such a designation.

What international sanctions are currently imposed on Israel….?

None!

 

How exactly are Israel the one being “blamed”?

 

[novacova]

Ultimately Palestine is being used as an antagonist proxy by Iran, ally of Russia, china and North Korea. Proxy wars between Russia and the United States been going on for decades. Whoever has the most influence and power controls and funds it’s proxies by known and unknown avenues. An incursion as this may have a propensity to unravel into Iran as an opportunity to knock out the nuke program and hamas support and even escalate further. Certainly hope this is resolved asap.

[candide]

16 minutes ago, novacova said:

Really? What religions were Mao Zejong and Joseph Stalin? Oh right…Marxism. Two of the largest mass murders that ever existed.

It looked like they were religions. Hence the expression "personality cult"

[Jeff the Chef]

17 minutes ago, novacova said:

Really? What religions were Mao Zejong and Joseph Stalin? Oh right…Marxism. Two of the largest mass murders that ever existed.

Let's not forget 8 Crusades over 2 centuries, soon to be 9 the way things are going FFS

[Jeff the Chef]

4 minutes ago, novacova said:

Ultimately Palestine is being used as an antagonist proxy by Iran, ally of Russia, china and North Korea. Proxy wars between Russia and the United States been going on for decades. Whoever has the most influence and power controls and funds it’s proxies by known and unknown avenues. An incursion as this may have a propensity to unravel into Iran as an opportunity to knock out the nuke program and hamas support and even escalate further. Certainly hope this is resolved asap.

Can I suggest we get all the Nuclear Powers in one room with all their Red Buttons primed and ready to obliterate one another and start the music, when the music stops they can all press their buttons simultaneously, and we can all go together, who will have won the arguments then? 

[spidermike007]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

A fair enough review. How does it relate to the Hamas attack, though?

Nothing ever happens in a vacuum. Cause and effect. Oppression and being treated as second class citizens leads to unrest. This has happened throughout history. It is happening in that area now. Some political science professors would refer to it as blowback. Israel has become an obnoxious bully. 

[MrMojoRisin]

13 minutes ago, candide said:

It looked like they were religions. Hence the expression "personality cult"

Exactly - religion was outlawed to prevent competition to their rule.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

What are you talking about? Hamas has been judged and declared a terrorist organisation. It has been hit with the sanctions that come along with such a designation.

What international sanctions are currently imposed on Israel….?

None!

 

How exactly are Israel the one being “blamed”?

 

 

Hamas is not universally regarded as a terrorist organization. It's mostly Western nations, and several ME opponents. The 'sanctions' you mentioned are not applied or complied everywhere. There is not a whole lot of condemnation for  Hamas on official international venues, especially the various UN ones.

 

Israel not being placed under sanctions may contradict your 'in the same bucket' assertion. At least as far as the Western world goes.

 

And as discussed earlier, Israel is harshly condemned by various UN bodies on a regular basis. There is no such treatment of the Hamas, the Palestinians or unrelated bad players. Almost every 'inquiry' into one of these fighting rounds is more focused on Israel. You're welcome to pretend things are different.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Nothing ever happens in a vacuum. Cause and effect. Oppression and being treated as second class citizens leads to unrest. This has happened throughout history. It is happening in that area now. Some political science professors would refer to it as blowback. Israel has become an obnoxious bully. 

So, more hot air instead of direct answer?

[novacova]

15 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Can I suggest we get all the Nuclear Powers in one room with all their Red Buttons primed and ready to obliterate one another and start the music, when the music stops they can all press their buttons simultaneously, and we can all go together, who will have won the arguments then? 

We know North Korea got caught attempting to smuggle weapons to hamas. Since, we don’t know what success they have achieved doing so into Iran as well or what type of capability of the weapons that has yet to have been implemented.

Edited October 8, 2023 by novacova

[billd766]

7 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

So the Palestinians invading Israel to acquire land is illegal under international law ?

   How about the war crimes committed by the Palestinian invaders ?

   Shooting and killing unarmed civilians is a war crime .

Tell that to Israel, who are constantly stealing land and murdering unarmed civilians using tanks, ground attack aircraft and helicopter gunships.

 

Israel has blockaded the Gaza Strip by a land sea and air blockade, They control food, water, medical supplies, yet when the Palestinians fight back, people like Netanyahu let slip the dogs of war.

 

Their response is always, what about the genocide during WW2. That was over 70 years ago and the majority of the people involved are dead and Germany has been punished, both as individuals and as a country.

 

What Israel is doing now is also genocide but their warmongering leaders simply don't care.

[Morch]

Hezbollah says rockets and mortars fired at Israel ‘in solidarity’ with Palestinians

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hezbollah-says-rockets-and-mortars-fired-at-israel-in-solidarity-with-palestinians/

 

Seems a token attack for now, hope things do not escalate further.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

It wasn't put under 'siege' or 'bombed' on a whim, but in relation to Hamas actions. You can try spinning that all you want. Never said anything about fairness, that's your addition. The situation came to a point where the Israeli pubic was ready to accept the withdrawal, given the price paid. From a purely military point of view, there was no issue going on controlling the Gaza Strip. This move, by the way, required a strong right wing leader in place (Sharon) .

 

I'm not saying that reoccupying the Gaza Strip is a good idea. It's not. It's one of them things which are easy to start, but hard to end. Regardless, given the current situation, it might happen anyway. Not that I think it will solve much, even on the immediate level - but given that there are no good options or solutions, it could come about.

Collective punishment is illegal under international law, but Israel doesn't take any notice when it doesn't suit itself.

 

As an example of IMO how barking American reaction is, some high American official said they will make sure that Israel has everything it needs to win against a few lightly armed fighters, that have been  surprisingly quite effective against the Israelis initially.

It's like he doesn't know that Israel is one of the most militarised countries on the planet, armed with tanks, ground attack aircraft, and a very large army of thousands, but that guy is classing them as a "threat" to Israel. Considering that most of the military uses American weapons he must be a bit sad, IMO.

[spidermike007]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

So, more hot air instead of direct answer?

“Israel has long attempted to silence findings of apartheid with targeted smear campaigns, and the international community allows itself to be cowed by these tactics. Until apartheid is dismantled there is no hope of protecting civilian lives, and no hope of justice for grieving families in Palestine and Israel.”

 

Under apartheid, Israeli authorities control virtually every aspect of Palestinians’ lives and subject them to daily oppression and discrimination through territorial fragmentation and legal segregation. Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) are segregated into separate enclaves, with those living in the Gaza Strip isolated from the rest of the world through Israel’s illegal blockade, which has caused a humanitarian crisis and is a form of collective punishment.

 

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-cruel-system-domination-and-crime-against-humanity-enar

[Morch]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

Tell that to Israel, who are constantly stealing land and murdering unarmed civilians using tanks, ground attack aircraft and helicopter gunships.

 

Israel has blockaded the Gaza Strip by a land sea and air blockade, They control food, water, medical supplies, yet when the Palestinians fight back, people like Netanyahu let slip the dogs of war.

 

Their response is always, what about the genocide during WW2. That was over 70 years ago and the majority of the people involved are dead and Germany has been punished, both as individuals and as a country.

 

What Israel is doing now is also genocide but their warmongering leaders simply don't care.

 

There is no land currently being stolen from the Gaza Strip. And as yesterday's attack demonstrates, killing unarmed civilians is not something the Palestinians refrain from doing.

 

The blockade of the Gaza Strip came about in response to Hamas attacks and agenda. It is also maintained by Egypt. Whenever there's a lull in hostilities, the blockade is eased. This usually doesn't hold very long, though.

 

The Israelis reference the Holocaust, the Palestinians reference the Nakba.

 

Genocide would imply much much less Palestinians about. That's not the case.

[scubascuba3]

Must be a news blackout, lots of hostages taken different countries

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

“Israel has long attempted to silence findings of apartheid with targeted smear campaigns, and the international community allows itself to be cowed by these tactics. Until apartheid is dismantled there is no hope of protecting civilian lives, and no hope of justice for grieving families in Palestine and Israel.”

 

Under apartheid, Israeli authorities control virtually every aspect of Palestinians’ lives and subject them to daily oppression and discrimination through territorial fragmentation and legal segregation. Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) are segregated into separate enclaves, with those living in the Gaza Strip isolated from the rest of the world through Israel’s illegal blockade, which has caused a humanitarian crisis and is a form of collective punishment.

 

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-cruel-system-domination-and-crime-against-humanity-enar

Seems we are on the same page on this situation. I agree with all of your post.

[Jeff the Chef]

23 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

11 minutes ago, novacova said:

We know North Korea got caught attempting to smuggle weapons to hamas. Since, we don’t know what success they have achieved doing so into Iran as well or what type of capability of the weapons that has yet to have been implemented.

 

What's your point?

Edited October 8, 2023 by Jeff the Chef

[Morch]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Collective punishment is illegal under international law, but Israel doesn't take any notice when it doesn't suit itself.

 

As an example of IMO how barking American reaction is, some high American official said they will make sure that Israel has everything it needs to win against a few lightly armed fighters, that have been  surprisingly quite effective against the Israelis initially.

It's like he doesn't know that Israel is one of the most militarised countries on the planet, armed with tanks, ground attack aircraft, and a very large army of thousands, but that guy is classing them as a "threat" to Israel. Considering that most of the military uses American weapons he must be a bit sad, IMO.

So is indiscriminate shelling of civilians settlements, Hamas does this each and every time. If you'd bother learning facts, you'd know that once upon a while there were UN border guards and inspectors at them border passes. May want to research why and how they withdrew.

 

Again, Israel does not maintain the blockade solo. Egypt does exactly the same. Somehow you focus only on one of them.

 

I would guess that the US comment was probably to do with Iron Dome interceptor missiles. They go out of stock pretty quickly under such circumstances.

 

You want to recall that these lightly armed militants just killed hundreds of Israeli civilians. In a single day.

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There is no land currently being stolen from the Gaza Strip. And as yesterday's attack demonstrates, killing unarmed civilians is not something the Palestinians refrain from doing.

 

The blockade of the Gaza Strip came about in response to Hamas attacks and agenda. It is also maintained by Egypt. Whenever there's a lull in hostilities, the blockade is eased. This usually doesn't hold very long, though.

 

The Israelis reference the Holocaust, the Palestinians reference the Nakba.

 

Genocide would imply much much less Palestinians about. That's not the case.

You can keep saying Israel good, Gaza bad till the last Gazan is dead, but some of us disagree and are not going to change our minds.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

“Israel has long attempted to silence findings of apartheid with targeted smear campaigns, and the international community allows itself to be cowed by these tactics. Until apartheid is dismantled there is no hope of protecting civilian lives, and no hope of justice for grieving families in Palestine and Israel.”

 

Under apartheid, Israeli authorities control virtually every aspect of Palestinians’ lives and subject them to daily oppression and discrimination through territorial fragmentation and legal segregation. Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) are segregated into separate enclaves, with those living in the Gaza Strip isolated from the rest of the world through Israel’s illegal blockade, which has caused a humanitarian crisis and is a form of collective punishment.

 

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-cruel-system-domination-and-crime-against-humanity-enar

So, no answer as to how the previous review of the Israeli government relates to the topic at hand? Just generalized fluff?

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Must be a news blackout, lots of hostages taken different countries

Looks like common sense blackout. What different countries? How were they transferred there?

[novacova]

5 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

What's your point?

Sorry, I have no interest in giving instructions here.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

So is indiscriminate shelling of civilians settlements, Hamas does this each and every time. If you'd bother learning facts, you'd know that once upon a while there were UN border guards and inspectors at them border passes. May want to research why and how they withdrew.

 

Again, Israel does not maintain the blockade solo. Egypt does exactly the same. Somehow you focus only on one of them.

 

I would guess that the US comment was probably to do with Iron Dome interceptor missiles. They go out of stock pretty quickly under such circumstances.

 

You want to recall that these lightly armed militants just killed hundreds of Israeli civilians. In a single day.

 

 

 

So is indiscriminate of bombing in residential areas, but it doesn't stop the Israelis doing it.

 

Yes, those lightly armed Gaza soldiers did surprisingly well against the much vaunted Israeli military, even capturing and burning tanks and taking the crews hostage. Perhaps the Israelis are only effective against unarmed civilians that they can intimidate.

 

Whenever this ends, there is going to be some harsh language behind Israeli doors concerning the complete intelligence failure and the initial lack of resistance to those lightly armed soldiers.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You can keep saying Israel good, Gaza bad till the last Gazan is dead, but some of us disagree and are not going to change our minds.

 

Except I do not say 'Israel good'. On the contrary, I agree that many of it's polices are 'bad', or at the very least self-harming in the long term. I've had no kind words for Israeli leadership, on this topic and others. What you can't seem to accept is that I do not engage in wholesale, ignorant hatred - vs. any side. I never ever said 'Gaza bad'. I actually bother to make the distinction between Hamas and the local populace. Any other things you'd like to make up?