ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Tug said:

All of this being said I’m really really having trouble believing that a top tier intelligence agency like mossad dident catch wind of an operation of this size frankly I don’t believe it this operation involved thousands of people planning and stockpiling for months something smells fishey to me sorry but something just not square on this deal

 

Nothing too fishy. Intelligence agencies (the Mossad, by the way, would not be the front agency on this one) fail at analyzing intentions even when information about means is available. This very attack was carried out at a time when the 1973 war is commemorated. That was another intelligence failure. It's not unique to Israel, even.

 

Hamas has been long aware it's under tight scrutiny and surveillance, obviously measure were taken to lessen exposure. That, and maybe an over-reliance by Israel on technological/visual means.

 

The number of people involved in the initial planning and attack would not amount to thousands, though. The first wave of attackers was hundreds strong.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Morch

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said:

The international community need to separate the Arabs and the Israelis, clear out all the weapons/munitions and fighters from Gaza with a international peace force and then chair peace talks between all sides, this cannot go on.

Why is it only the Arabs that need weapons taken away from them?

 

I doubt any country other than the US would be foolish enough to actually send their troops into the mess the Israelis have created with their oppression for decades.

 

Haven't they been having peace talks for many years?

 

It will go on as long as Israel illegally settles in the illegally occupied West Bank.

 

The Israelis have already separated Arabs and Israelis with their walls, and have lots and lots more guns and tanks and bombers than the Palestinians, but for some reason the Palestinians keep wanting an end to the occupation and oppression and settler violence against them. I wonder what that reason could be, as isn't their life just peachy under Israeli rule?

[stevenl]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If the Israelis go too far in flattening Gaza, as they seem intent on doing, it likely will cause an uprising in the West Bank, which has been surprisingly quiet, other than demonstrations.

 

There have been clashes on the Israeli/ Lebanon border. Be interesting to see if Syria takes advantage of the situation.

Neither is happening and seems unlikely to happen.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

"If you see a turtle on a fence post, you know it had some help" - Bill Clinton

 

Israel have deliberately engineered the Palestinians current predicament.

 

And there it is again, painting the Palestinians as helpless, passive, clueless, unable to deal with anything (other than through violence).

 

Kindly don't edit my posts and leave out the bits not fitting your agenda.

[herfiehandbag]

There is a fair amount of footage kicking around of Hamas " militants" including scenes of murder, hostage taking and parading bodies and hostages.

 

There will now be a concerted effort to identify these people. It may take some time to catch up with them, but the Israelis certainly will.

[Tug]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Nothing too fishy. Intelligence agencies (the Mossad, by the way, would not be the front agency on this one) fail at analyzing intentions even when information about means is available. This very attack was carried out at a time when the 1973 war is commemorated. That was another intelligence failure. It's not unique to Israel, even.

 

Hamas has been long aware it's under tight scrutiny and surveillance, obviously measure were taken to lessen exposure. That, and maybe an over-reliance by Israel on technological/visual means.

 

The number of people involved in the initial planning and attack would not amount to thousands, though. The first wave of attackers was hundreds strong.

Sorry Mr morch I’m still not buying it to many people and supply’s under such close surveillance I just i

hope it’s resolved asap and doesn’t happen again 

[Trippy]

13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That reminds me of the language of a certain man in Germany last century.

Do the Israelis want to be remembered in the same way?

That's the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. You're grasping at straws to legitimize your position.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, stevenl said:

Neither is happening and seems unlikely to happen.

Give them time. The US is sending munitions, which raises the question of what they would be used for, as I'm sure the IDF has enough bullets to kill a few hundred lightly armed Palestinians.

 

Netanyahu is certainly using language that indicates he wants to destroy Gaza.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Neither is happening and seems unlikely to happen.

Have you not seen the destruction already created in Gaza by bombs? It's hardly "nothing".

[Morch]

3 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Oh, they should just drop their pants, bend over and accept the slow motion genocide being inflicted upon them in silence?

 

IMHO the greatest villain here is the international community that allows this situation to persist decade after decade.

 

The UN must impose a border, based upon the 1967 green-line, and then militarily enforce it.

 

They could choose to do something constructive, rather than merely engage in futile violence and rhetoric. There is no 'genocide' unless you insist on demeaning the word. The UN does not have an army.

 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, NickyLouie said:

 

Iran jammed the outpost signals where the filthy Islamic terrorists snuck over into Israel.

 

If Habibi wanted a war he gonna get it soon.

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-american-carrier-strike-force-mediterranean-db05d535a9ebb931f684f758c9b6f628

 

 

Iran did not. The Hamas already released a how-we-did-it-video. Very small drones, coming from a tough to detect angle at low speed and height. Each dropping a grenade on the surveillance/shooter system. Same for tanks around the perimeter, it seems.

[MrMojoRisin]

2 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

In the event that the UN does nothing, what do you think the Gazans should do?

What do you mean “in the event”?

 

The UN has done nothing for decades, nearly always due to the US exercising its veto powers.

 

As for the Palestinians, it appears they have but two options:

 

1. Passively sit and wait for Israel to kill them and steal all the land 

2. Terrorism

 

It’s a lose - lose situation for the poor bastards.

[FruitPudding]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Another one broadcasting the antisemitic trope that Israel is equivalent to Nazis.

I don't recall the French resistance massacring German civilians at a music festival or breaking into houses to murder and kidnap random German civilian children. Hmm. 

Exactly.

 

Islamic extremists are savages.

 

Although,  they may have a worthy cause now, they are still committing atrocities to innocent civilians as we speak.

[MrMojoRisin]

22 minutes ago, Morch said:

Yawn. Always with them 'questions' to others. Rarely putting up something of your own.

 

Resistance does not have to be solely based on violence.

Fostering unity among their ranks instead of pushing for a divide could help.

Getting a territory for self rule, maybe a better idea to invest in developing it rather than use it as a base for attack.

And so on and so forth....

The Irgun?

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The "International Community" IMO hasn't done anything as long as Israel has existed to support Palestinians, so it's going to make zero difference if they don't do anything now.

 

Seems that the International Community are inflating this conflict somewhat. It's a few hundred lightly armed Palestinian soldiers against the massive Israeli military. They don't have artillery, planes, tanks etc. However, to hear the hysteria on TV news it's like the Iranian army was invading.

 

If the Israelis go too far in flattening Gaza, as they seem intent on doing, it likely will cause an uprising in the West Bank, which has been surprisingly quiet, other than demonstrations.

 

There have been clashes on the Israeli/ Lebanon border. Be interesting to see if Syria takes advantage of the situation.

 

Large anti Israel support demonstrations in Washington and New York.

 

https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/08/israel-gaza-the-global-impact-of-the-escalating-conflict

Türkiye

Thousands of Turks have taken part in a march in Istanbul to support the Palestinians.

“The Palestinian people are only defending their homeland, it has nothing to do with terrorism,” Sahin Ocal, 54, an activist from one of the associations organising the march, told AFP.

Inflating? 700 hundred dead (and rising), thousands injured, over a 100 kidnapped. Most are civilians. And that's in a single day.

 

[Jeff the Chef]

13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Why is it only the Arabs that need weapons taken away from them?

This is what I wrote (The international community need to separate the Arabs and the Israelis, clear out all the weapons/munitions and fighters from Gaza) I don't think many Israelis if any are in Gaza with weapons or munitions.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said:

This will never end well for either side, whilst I deplore the atrocities of Hamas in this latest attack, you cannot then say Israel are innocent of atrocities against the people of Gaza.

The international community as usual will wring their collective hands about the terrorism of Hamas/Hezbollah etc etc

100/1000's of innocent Palestinian men, women and children will be killed or wounded by Israel forces who yet again will try to bomb/shell the Gaza strip chasing Hamas fighters.

At the end of the day no one will win and in another few years it will be rinse and repeat.

The international community need to separate the Arabs and the Israelis, clear out all the weapons/munitions and fighters from Gaza with a international peace force and then chair peace talks between all sides, this cannot go on.

How would you suggest this be done?

The Hamas would disarm on its own.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, Jeff the Chef said:

This is what I wrote (The international community need to separate the Arabs and the Israelis, clear out all the weapons/munitions and fighters from Gaza) I don't think many Israelis if any are in Gaza with weapons or munitions.

I know what you wrote, but why should the Gazan's give up their weapons if Israel does not? Is not Gaza an independent territory, even if it is under seige? It's not governed by Israel.

[stevenl]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Have you not seen the destruction already created in Gaza by bombs? It's hardly "nothing".

Don't you understand your own words and therefore my reply?

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, FruitPudding said:

Exactly.

 

Islamic extremists are savages.

 

Although,  they may have a worthy cause now, they are still committing atrocities to innocent civilians as we speak.

How about Israeli bombs currently killing Gaza children? Are they not also atrocities?

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Don't you understand your own words and therefore my reply?

I did misunderstand your intent. Apologies.

[spidermike007]

13 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

There again, perhaps political science professors should opine upon the "blowback" of shooting in cold blood (and filming the act and uploading it) of adolescents sheltering in a bomb shelter, the sight of elderly people being dragged off to an uncertain ( probably certain) fate, or the sight of the naked body of a young German woman seized and murdered from a peace festival.

 

Political scientists don't have to clean up the bodies of slaughtered youth, run an increasingly fruitless attempt to locate the hostages, or explain to the parents of the murdered girl why the last image of their daughter is of some black clad bastard using her torso as a seat in the back of a pick up truck.

 

"Blowback" - utter <deleted>!

 

 

I agree. But, blowback comes in many different forms. I am not condoning the extremists. I despise them. They are insects, not humans. And the religious garbage is just a disguise that allows them to behave very badly. 

[thaibeachlovers]

10 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

The Irgun?

 

Ah yes, that terrorist Zionist organisation. Wasn't Begin an Irgun terrorist?

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin

Begin was described by the British government as the "leader of the notorious terrorist organisation"

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I agree. But, blowback comes in many different forms. I am not condoning the extremists. I despise them. They are insects, not humans. And the religious garbage is just a disguise that allows them to behave very badly. 

Why insult insects? Insects just do what they do. Humans are the bad species and do worse things than animals and insects because they choose to do so, while animals and insects do things by instinct, not choice.

[spidermike007]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Why insult insects? Insects just do what they do. Humans are the bad species and do worse things than animals and insects because they choose to do so, while animals and insects do things by instinct, not choice.

Very true. We are moving backwards as a species. How backward and unevolved we are surely makes the argument that we are not alone in the universe stronger. If earth humans are the apex, the universe is a huge, sorry mass of space. That is impossible. 

[Morch]

@placeholder

 

That's no my claim, but your version of it.

I'm suggesting that for whatever reason, the Palestinians seem forever stuck on a single course of action. So far there are no signs that it leads them toward better results. On the contrary, each and every iteration makes their situation worse. The inability to change course, to formulate a new strategy (for decades now!) is mind boggling.

 

The article you referred to in your original post was just the usual stuff - something needs to be done for the Palestinians, and at the same time neglecting any expectation of the Palestinians themselves to act in a constructive manner in order to get there.

 

Violence has it's place in national struggles. So does appealing to outside forces and the world at large. Blaming the oppressors is obviously customary. But these cannot be the only (or even the main) elements, if dreams are to be realized.

 

I am not contesting that Israel's policies vs. the Palestinians are always righteous, smart, or anything like that. On the contrary, I'm often critical of them (especially with regard to the illegal settlement effort). But both Israel's policies and the International community supposed failures are not the whole story. Somehow, on these topics these are given prominence, while expectations of accountability, responsibility and constructive action from the Palestinians are not.

 

 

[FruitPudding]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How about Israeli bombs currently killing Gaza children? Are they not also atrocities?

Of course, but nobody is glorifying or supporting Israel's actions.

 

However, much of the world is supporting Palestine and turning a blind eye to what they do.

 

Maybe they think you have to crack some eggs to make an omelet.

 

Each to their own.

 

I don't support Palestine because the Islamic extremists will turn on us next. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, sammieuk1 said:

Hamas Palestinian cheering and celebrations won't be lasting long ????

 

 

BREAKING: Minister of Defence of Israel: "The rules of war have changed, we will cripple Gaza so that it will remember it for the next 50 years."

 

 

 

With about 150 hostages in place? Sure....

[Jeff the Chef]

 

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

How would you suggest this be done?

The Hamas would disarm on its own.

 

 An International peace force would I hope guarantee the people of Gaza security, Hamas would be offered an amnesty, disarm or face the consequences. 

[herfiehandbag]

39 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Netanyahu is certainly using language that indicates he wants to destroy Gaza.

Netanyahu ( far from my favourite politician, although he was, in the final analysis, elected) is using language that indicates that he wants to destroy Hamas.

 

Given what Hamas has done perhaps not surprising.

 

Destruction of the organisation is unlikely, but it's capacity to wage war both now and for the foreseeable future can probably be achieved.

 

Hamas has certainly achieved one mid term result. Gaza will remain sealed, and it's inhabitants unable to enter Israel to find work. Inevitably of course this will result in accusations of Israel overreacting. With nigh on a thousand dead, 250 alone being entirely innocent festival goers, children gunned down ( with the acts being filmed), hostages taken and paraded, and bodies abused, I doubt that Israel will care what the enlightened commentary says!

 

Two results for Hamas, inevitable widespread damage to the society they rule over (in an almost medieval sense), and uniting Israel behind an unpopular government. They're not even, realistically, going to be able to play the "victim card" for some time to come.

Edited October 9, 2023 by herfiehandbag