Analysis Israel's options don't look good - but a full-scale military campaign in the near future is inevitable

[deejai33]

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Who is 'we'? Who do you claim to speak for? Or for that matter - what are your views on the 'questions' you raise?

And, for that matter - why is it that you are not, apparently, much interested in what the Palestinian want? What the Hamas wants?

By the word 'We', I mean people who read this thread and similar.  People who read the posts, take an interest in what is said and use it to help form their views.  Participants in these threads about the Palestinian-Israel conflict and current Hamas attrocity and aftermath.

 

I ask the question, because I do not know what the pro-israeli contributors see as the future for Palestinians. 

 

Its a question !   You ask me to answer it ?  

 

(I think you are implying I am a Hamas fan-boy, but I'll ignore that as a misunderstanding)

 

Answers to what Israeli's want might include things like a one-state solution, a two-state solution, or the migration of palestinians to a different part of the World.

 

I asked a question, do you have an reply ?   

 

 

[deejai33]

8 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

 

Can I follow up this view with a question aimed at the contributors here who stand out, based on their many posts, as definitely pro-hamas/Palestine.  I think we can all list them.

 

Can I ask this:

 

We know you want Israel to stop attacking hamas and to be just be targets.  We know you probably support that all lands river to sea be given over to hamas/Palestine.  And you want hamas/Palestine to live in a peaceful state, free from attacks from religious nut-case Zionists.  OK, some variant of that.

 

So what do you want to be the Israelis  future ?  There's approx 7m of them in area Israel controls, total 16m worldwide.

 

What do pro-hamas/Palestine folk want their future to be? Kill then all or just kill the men and force the women to be sex-slaves?

 

Sorry, Can you give a clear and direct answer to my question.  Not some very clever joke/attempt at being clever.

 

The question is, what do the pro-israeli contributors here want the future of Palestinians to be ?

 

Clear enough question I think.

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

 

Sorry, Can you give a clear and direct answer to my question.  Not some very clever joke/attempt at being clever.

 

The question is, what do the pro-israeli contributors here want the future of Palestinians to be ?

 

Clear enough question I think.

I think they would like nothing more than to live in peace and harmony with the Palestinians and the world.

 

Now you...

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

By the word 'We', I mean people who read this thread and similar.  People who read the posts, take an interest in what is said and use it to help form their views.  Participants in these threads about the Palestinian-Israel conflict and current Hamas attrocity and aftermath.

 

I ask the question, because I do not know what the pro-israeli contributors see as the future for Palestinians. 

 

Its a question !   You ask me to answer it ?  

 

(I think you are implying I am a Hamas fan-boy, but I'll ignore that as a misunderstanding)

 

Answers to what Israeli's want might include things like a one-state solution, a two-state solution, or the migration of palestinians to a different part of the World.

 

I asked a question, do you have an reply ?   

 

 

 

Making it a 'we' rather than 'I' is placing yourself as speaking for a group. It's a basic debate tactic.

 

You ask a question as to what others think. How about sharing what you think first? How you see 'the future for Palestinians'? 

 

I'm not implying. I've already said you're dodgy on an another topic. New account, starting off with I-don't-know-so-much-about-this then continue to post either pro-Palestinian comments, or 'asking questions' - see here: Just Asking Questions. Since I've been on this forum for a long time, and took part in more topics like this than you have posts, I can safely say there's that strange feeling of Déjà vu. 

 

And before you try to make this about not having a reply etc. - see above. I've discussed these issues multiple times on multiple topics.

 

It's not me, it's you.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Morch

[Neeranam]

On 10/13/2023 at 8:35 AM, ThaiFelix said:

One thing for sure is Israel will end up stealing more land from the Palestinians and the rest of the world will look the other way.

 

I feel Hamas has bitten off far more than it can handle but then what alternative does a hunted beast have when cornered?

I've learned a lot since Oct 7. I didn't know the UN and Amnesty International both say there is Apartheid in Israel. 

Surely being pro-Israel is being pro Apartheid. 

No one can condone what some Hamas did but what Israel have being doing to Palestinians and are currently doing, is criminal and should not be supported. 

I don't know the answer but say Israel should equal rights to Palestinians and give them back the land that was stolen through discriminatory laws. 

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702

[deejai33]

20 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Making it a 'we' rather than 'I' is placing yourself as speaking for a group. It's a basic debate tactic.

 

You ask a question as to what others think. How about sharing what you think first? How you see 'the future for Palestinians'? 

 

I'm not implying. I've already said you're dodgy on an another topic. New account, starting off with I-don't-know-so-much-about-this then continue to post either pro-Palestinian comments, or 'asking questions' - see here: Just Asking Questions. Since I've been on this forum for a long time, and took part in more topics like this than you have posts, I can safely say there's that strange feeling of Déjà vu. 

 

And before you try to make this about not having a reply etc. - see above. I've discussed these issues multiple times on multiple topics.

 

It's not me, it's you.

Thanks for reply, even if it questions my authenticity, my motives, on this forum.

 

I'll change the 'we' to 'I', to help this topic along.  As you say maybe no other contributor is interested in the question I posed.

 

You refer to other posts, and I did make an effort with a lengthy reply to state my position.  Quite correctly, you identify I do hold a pro-palestinian position on most issues here.  Quite common among brits with a university background in the 70's/80's.

 

So does that establish some degree of legitmacy for you. To see I am not trolling or a Hamas supporter.

 

I'll add, I deplore Hamas's recent attrocities, and also support Israel's right to exist and defend itself. (not quite so sure about attacking as a means of defence however). That's easy to say, not a problem.

 

So I've taken my time to hopefully convince you.  Ok ? Sufficient.

 

As I replied to another post, I do not have an answer to the question.  Its why I asked it.

 

Please answer, what do the pro-israeli guys here want the future of Palestine to be ?  Its not a trick question.  

Edited October 23, 2023 by deejai33

[Nick Carter icp]

27 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

 

Sorry, Can you give a clear and direct answer to my question.  Not some very clever joke/attempt at being clever.

 

The question is, what do the pro-israeli contributors here want the future of Palestinians to be ?

 

Clear enough question I think.

 

   Let them do whatever they want to do , just accept Israel's existence  and stop waging war and get on with their own lives 

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, deejai33 said:

Thanks for reply, even if it questions my authenticity, my motives, on this forum.

 

I'll change the 'we' to 'I', to help this topic along.  As you say maybe no other contributor is interested in the question I posed.

 

You refer to other posts, and I did make an effort with a lengthy reply to state my position.  Quite correctly, you identify I do hold a pro-palestinian position on most issues here.  Quite common among brits with a university background in the 70's/80's.

 

So does that establish some degree of legitmacy for you. To see I am not trolling or a Hamas supporter.

 

I'll add, I deplore Hamas's recent attrocities, and also support Israel's right to exist and defend itself. (not quite so sure about attacking as a means of defence however). That's easy say, not a problem.

 

So I've taken my time to hopefully convince you.  Ok ? Sufficient.

 

As I replied to another post, I do not have an answer to the question.  Its why I asked it.

 

Please answer, what do the pro-israeli guys here want the future of Palestine to be ?  Its not a trick question.  

I suspect it is more to do with religion than Israeli politics that  the prolific pro-Israel posters are so vocal here. Understandable, we usually support our own, even if we slightly disagree with some things they are doing. 

Like you, I went to a British uni. in the 80s and agree with what I've read in your posts. 

Sadly, there is a group of poster here that will bully those not supporting Israel killing so many, there is gaslighting and calling anyone disagreeing with them 'antisemitic' and general character assassination.  We need to hear both sides of this conflict. 

 

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

Thanks for reply, even if it questions my authenticity, my motives, on this forum.

 

I'll change the 'we' to 'I', to help this topic along.  As you say maybe no other contributor is interested in the question I posed.

 

You refer to other posts, and I did make an effort with a lengthy reply to state my position.  Quite correctly, you identify I do hold a pro-palestinian position on most issues here.  Quite common among brits with a university background in the 70's/80's.

 

So does that establish some degree of legitmacy for you. To see I am not trolling or a Hamas supporter.

 

I'll add, I deplore Hamas's recent attrocities, and also support Israel's right to exist and defend itself. (not quite so sure about attacking as a means of defence however). That's easy say, not a problem.

 

So I've taken my time to hopefully convince you.  Ok ? Sufficient.

 

As I replied to another post, I do not have an answer to the question.  Its why I asked it.

 

Please answer, what do the pro-israeli guys here want the future of Palestine to be ?  Its not a trick question.  

I think the pro-Israeli guys here would like nothing more than for Palestinian to live in peace and harmony with Israel.

 

What do the pro-palestine guys here want the future of Israel to be? It's not a trick question. 

[Nick Carter icp]

Just now, Neeranam said:

I suspect it is more to do with religion than Israeli politics that  the prolific pro-Israel posters are so vocal here. Understandable, we usually support our own, even if we slightly disagree with some things they are doing. 

Like you, I went to a British uni. in the 80s and agree with what I've read in your posts. 

Sadly, there is a group of poster here that will bully those not supporting Israel killing so many, there is gaslighting and calling anyone disagreeing with them 'antisemitic' and general character assassination.  We need to hear both sides of this conflict. 

 

 

    Stop playing the victim , no one has accused you of being anti Semitic for disagreeing with them .

 

[BarraMarra]

4 hours ago, deejai33 said:

See reply I made just now.  In London protest, police said they would arrest anyone voicing hamas support.  10 arrests were made, probably not hamas related. But surely a tiny proportion of 100,000.

It only needs 1 bad apple to spoil the bag of Apples.

[BarraMarra]

Who's banging on about a ceasefire to allow Aid into Gaza ?

[Morch]

2 hours ago, deejai33 said:

Thanks for reply, even if it questions my authenticity, my motives, on this forum.

 

I'll change the 'we' to 'I', to help this topic along.  As you say maybe no other contributor is interested in the question I posed.

 

You refer to other posts, and I did make an effort with a lengthy reply to state my position.  Quite correctly, you identify I do hold a pro-palestinian position on most issues here.  Quite common among brits with a university background in the 70's/80's.

 

So does that establish some degree of legitmacy for you. To see I am not trolling or a Hamas supporter.

 

I'll add, I deplore Hamas's recent attrocities, and also support Israel's right to exist and defend itself. (not quite so sure about attacking as a means of defence however). That's easy to say, not a problem.

 

So I've taken my time to hopefully convince you.  Ok ? Sufficient.

 

As I replied to another post, I do not have an answer to the question.  Its why I asked it.

 

Please answer, what do the pro-israeli guys here want the future of Palestine to be ?  Its not a trick question.  

 

I don't question your authenticity or your motives.  There's no need to. When someone pops on these topics claiming they are on neither side, and do-not-know-much-about-it, and later on says no-I'm-actually-pro-this-or-that, and apparently not quite clueless as pretended - that sort of answers them questions. Again, nothing new. Been there, seen that. No creativity cookie points.

 

The 'we' think? Let me spell it out for you, and others. When you lump together all 'pro-Israel' posters vs. some general 'we' that's one thing. When you do that while you're pro-Palestinian, what you're actually trying to do is co-opt everyone participating or reading the topic as being 'we', and vs. them 'pro-Israeli' posters. Again, very basic debate stuff. And again, no points.

 

I have zero interest in where you're from. It's almost irrelevant. People here hold all sorts of view, regardless of their nationality. Some of the most critical USA commentary comes from Americans and so on.

 

And you are most definitely trolling. Your posts display a rather more in-depth knowledge with related facts, history and so on, then you come on with them JAQ posts. All the more so when you're actually 'for' one of the sides. Not a particularly honest way of discussing things.

 

Don't have an answer? Really? Do you realize that it's quite easy to review your posting history? The level of detail in which replied to other posts would suggest you're just dodging the question. No problems opining on the state of roads in the West Bank, the Palestinian elections and so on. It would be almost inconceivable that someone would label himself pro-Palestinian while at the same time claiming ignorance or not being able to articulate thoughts about their 'future'.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, placnx said:

I thought more about the difficulties of Palestinians to organize. Among the simple, non-intellectual, people I think that there's an attitude of fatalism. Here's a current example of how people react to intimidation: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory

Indeed. Given the Palestinians have the options of resisting and getting shot by the israelis, demonstrating and getting arrested by the israelis, or accepting the situation, most will become fatalistic.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

Who's banging on about a ceasefire to allow Aid into Gaza ?

Last I heard was 38 trucks were allowed in, while 100 a day are actually required, so yes more aid needs to be allowed in, and a ceasefire needs to happen unless the israelis want to find themselves fighting on multiple fronts. The world has been watching, and the world is not amused, and the world is stirring against israel.

[Yellowtail]

34 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Last I heard was 38 trucks were allowed in, while 100 a day are actually required, so yes more aid needs to be allowed in, and a ceasefire needs to happen unless the israelis want to find themselves fighting on multiple fronts. The world has been watching, and the world is not amused, and the world is stirring against israel.

So why does not the world provide 100 trucks a day? 

 

In any event, most of the western world supports Israel and sees Palestine's hamas for the terrorists they are and would like to see them eradicated. You seem to think it morally superior to allow Palestine's hamas to indiscriminately kill Jews with rockets. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Last I heard was 38 trucks were allowed in, while 100 a day are actually required, so yes more aid needs to be allowed in, and a ceasefire needs to happen unless the israelis want to find themselves fighting on multiple fronts. The world has been watching, and the world is not amused, and the world is stirring against israel.

 

Hamas could release the hostages to secure such a ceasefire.

[Morch]

Returning to the OP....

 

So Israel air raids have been going on for more than two weeks now, the IDF called up a massive number of reservists, civilians in relevant areas evacuated. A whole lot of talk about objectives, readiness, threats and so on - but no ground assault.

 

According to various media reports, the IDF says it's ready to go in, and that further delays would cause issues - Hamas getting more time to prepare, global support might wane, and reservists can't be kept in uniforms forever.

 

The government (or in effect, Netanyahu) seems to have a different take on things. Regardless of his forceful public messages, what Netanyahu actually broadcasts is indecision (a trait) and distrust of the army (possibly merited). But regardless, his main focus seems to be about his own political survival in the aftermath of the crisis.

 

There are quite possibly issues with the IDF's readiness and ability to deliver. While the army insists there are no real shortages of equipment etc., many reservists tell a different story. If there are indeed no shortages, then apparently issues exist with the logistics of getting them to the right place. Not a good sign.

 

The goals set by Israeli politicians are ambitious, even if factoring for statements made for public consumption. More serious commentaries by former generals, and military pundits suggest that even a more limited version of this would be hard to accomplish and might take months if not more. In any case, the IDF itself concedes such operations will result in many Israeli casualties. While the Israeli public may be all for it now - it's anyone's guess as to whether perceptions will change during a prolonged operation, and with body bags coming back from the Gaza Strip. The USA seems worried about too about the IDF's ability to meet mission goals, and those mission goals not being realistic. Maybe their input and position are key, and maybe less so - no idea.

 

Another military element that needs considering is intel. Can't go to war without it, but how to trust one's intelligence services when they obviously failed miserably with regard to the Hamas attack. This is a very valid point - the answer, perhaps, is that there's no other alternative to form an assessment on.

 

While all this is is going on, Netanyahu already shifted to (political) campaign mode. PR advisors and spokesperson placed in various relevant bodies, appointments of people to key emergency position blocked (not Netanyahu loyalists), and no expression of accepting responsibility from the man himself (as opposed to pretty much everyone else directly involved). His social media apparatus (aka 'The Poison Machine') is in full gear, either spewing home-made talking points and fake news, or raising allegations and pointing fingers at others. This often in tandem with echoing Iranian and Russian propaganda messages. All lapped up by his supporter base. The official message, to be sure, is of course, Unity....

 

One of these recent social media campaigns (launched as bi-partisan and anonymous, later exposed as strongly tied to Netanyahu former advisor) called for rethinking or calling off the ground assault.

 

All of this raises questions as to how committed the Israeli government is, and whether the policies announced so far are for real, or just another smokescreen for Netanyahu's benefit. There are worries expressed that it will all boil down to a prisoner exchange, and a return to the previous paradigm.     

 

 

[Yellowtail]

In all fairness, if the IDF goes in and is defeated, it will not just end Netanyahu's career, it could be the end of Israel, and a lot of people would like nothing better. 

 

 

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

In all fairness, if the IDF goes in and is defeated, it will not just end Netanyahu's career, it could be the end of Israel, and a lot of people would like nothing better. 

 

 

 

I don't think failure to meet goals would necessarily be a 'defeat' as such, but could certainly be painted so. Israel will not 'end' even if nothing happens and things remain as they are. This is not currently a situation in which Israel is faced with utter destruction or anything.

[Yellowtail]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think failure to meet goals would necessarily be a 'defeat' as such, but could certainly be painted so. Israel will not 'end' even if nothing happens and things remain as they are. This is not currently a situation in which Israel is faced with utter destruction or anything.

I believe truly eradicating hamas and stabilizing Gaza will take years of actual military occupation after the initial months of bloodbath. 

 

I further believe "the media" has a lot more power in this than they are given credit for, they have no accountability, and they generally hate Israel. Even in the US here (I think) about 60-80% of Americans support Israel, the leaves 20-40% that would vote to give Israel over to hamas, 

 

 

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I believe truly eradicating hamas and stabilizing Gaza will take years of actual military occupation after the initial months of bloodbath. 

 

I further believe "the media" has a lot more power in this than they are given credit for, they have no accountability, and they generally hate Israel. Even in the US here (I think) about 60-80% of Americans support Israel, the leaves 20-40% that would vote to give Israel over to hamas, 

 

 

 

Yeah - so even if the world puts up with it, unclear is Israelis would. A lot of them may be all gung ho about it now. As a long term proposition, including occupation and management of the Gaza Strip, not so much. Been there done that.

 

The media has a lot more power in what? How?

[placnx]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Yeah - so even if the world puts up with it, unclear is Israelis would. A lot of them may be all gung ho about it now. As a long term proposition, including occupation and management of the Gaza Strip, not so much. Been there done that.

 

The media has a lot more power in what? How?

If after a while a ceasefire happened leaving Hamas in place, various countries in concert might force a transition to a new Gaza government, perhaps through elections, as a counterpart to their providing big reconstruction aid. The alternative where Israel finds itself in control of Gaza might be problematical for handing off to a third party. No local actor(s) would like to be seen as collaborating and dealing with what would likely be much more damage than we see currently.

 

Media reaction reflects local attitudes, so in some countries there may be red lines in different places in regard to humanitarian issues, for example. In the US Fox News can certainly manipulate opinion of a significant share of the population, but again those people have their general preconceptions, so Fox just works to concentrate the mind to react regarding the news item 'du jour' they choose to headline. Last week Sean Hannity was telling viewers to harass congressmen who were resisting the selection of Jim Jordan as Speaker of the House. It backfired.

https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/pressure-campaign-by-jim-jordan-supporters-backfires-in-house-speaker-race-92779873

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

Yeah - so even if the world puts up with it...

Which it may not...

4 hours ago, Morch said:

...unclear is Israelis would. A lot of them may be all gung ho about it now. As a long term proposition, including occupation and management of the Gaza Strip, not so much. Been there done that.

WIth over a thousand dead and over 200 taken as hostages support is strong. Once people's kids start coming home in body-bags and it drags on with no end in sight, they'll tire of it...

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The media has a lot more power in what? How?

Shaping public opinion, which (more than ever) shapes policy.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

If after a while a ceasefire happened leaving Hamas in place, various countries in concert might force a transition to a new Gaza government, perhaps through elections, as a counterpart to their providing big reconstruction aid. The alternative where Israel finds itself in control of Gaza might be problematical for handing off to a third party. No local actor(s) would like to be seen as collaborating and dealing with what would likely be much more damage than we see currently.

Yeah, and if a rainbow came down over doves carrying a banner saying "Peace on Earth" everyone might throw down their arms and embrace their enemies. 

1 hour ago, placnx said:

 

Media reaction reflects local attitudes, so in some countries there may be red lines in different places in regard to humanitarian issues, for example. In the US Fox News can certainly manipulate opinion of a significant share of the population, but again those people have their general preconceptions, so Fox just works to concentrate the mind to react regarding the news item 'du jour' they choose to headline. Last week Sean Hannity was telling viewers to harass congressmen who were resisting the selection of Jim Jordan as Speaker of the House. It backfired.

https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/pressure-campaign-by-jim-jordan-supporters-backfires-in-house-speaker-race-92779873

 

Or when The New York Times claims Israel has bombed a hospital and killed 500 innocents and then takes a week to walk it back.

[deejai33]

18 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I don't question your authenticity or your motives.  There's no need to. When someone pops on these topics claiming they are on neither side, and do-not-know-much-about-it, and later on says no-I'm-actually-pro-this-or-that, and apparently not quite clueless as pretended - that sort of answers them questions. Again, nothing new. Been there, seen that. No creativity cookie points.

 

The 'we' think? Let me spell it out for you, and others. When you lump together all 'pro-Israel' posters vs. some general 'we' that's one thing. When you do that while you're pro-Palestinian, what you're actually trying to do is co-opt everyone participating or reading the topic as being 'we', and vs. them 'pro-Israeli' posters. Again, very basic debate stuff. And again, no points.

 

I have zero interest in where you're from. It's almost irrelevant. People here hold all sorts of view, regardless of their nationality. Some of the most critical USA commentary comes from Americans and so on.

 

And you are most definitely trolling. Your posts display a rather more in-depth knowledge with related facts, history and so on, then you come on with them JAQ posts. All the more so when you're actually 'for' one of the sides. Not a particularly honest way of discussing things.

 

Don't have an answer? Really? Do you realize that it's quite easy to review your posting history? The level of detail in which replied to other posts would suggest you're just dodging the question. No problems opining on the state of roads in the West Bank, the Palestinian elections and so on. It would be almost inconceivable that someone would label himself pro-Palestinian while at the same time claiming ignorance or not being able to articulate thoughts about their 'future'.

 

 

Me trolling ?  Clearly I do not.

 

Again you want me to answer the question which I posed to pro-israeli contributers.  I am not pro-israeli, so I cannot answer the question.  Seems sensible to me.   

 

I asked the question sincerely.   I am interested to know, in detail, how the pro-israeli folk see the future for the palestinians.  Seems important to have a detailed view as its the israeli's, with unwavering US backing, that call the shots, make the decisions.  

 

These Israel-Palestine threads contain so much hostility from the pro-israeli contributors, I am reluctant to make posts.

[placnx]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, and if a rainbow came down over doves carrying a banner saying "Peace on Earth" everyone might throw down their arms and embrace their enemies. 

 

Or when The New York Times claims Israel has bombed a hospital and killed 500 innocents and then takes a week to walk it back.

As others suggested, in Israel the mood could change for various reasons and the generals could not follow through with their (and Netanyahu's) plan to eradicate Hamas. So I suggested that Hamas could be made to give up power by external actors who would see that a political alternative replaced Hamas. There would still remain the question of a security force so that remnants of Hamas could not stage a coup.

Edited October 24, 2023 by placnx

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Which it may not...

WIth over a thousand dead and over 200 taken as hostages support is strong. Once people's kids start coming home in body-bags and it drags on with no end in sight, they'll tire of it...

Shaping public opinion, which (more than ever) shapes policy.

 

The last bit is vague - it can cut whichever way, and it doesn't explain or support the original comment.

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

 

Me trolling ?  Clearly I do not.

 

Again you want me to answer the question which I posed to pro-israeli contributers.  I am not pro-israeli, so I cannot answer the question.  Seems sensible to me.   

 

I asked the question sincerely.   I am interested to know, in detail, how the pro-israeli folk see the future for the palestinians.  Seems important to have a detailed view as its the israeli's, with unwavering US backing, that call the shots, make the decisions.  

 

These Israel-Palestine threads contain so much hostility from the pro-israeli contributors, I am reluctant to make posts.

 

Posing to be something you're not, feigning ignorance, JAQing. Yeah, that's pretty much trolling. If you need another word, dishonest.

 

You can certainly say how you see things from a pro-Palestinian point of view, though. It would be a start. You could comment on your impressions as to what such poster may think, based on the many posts on here. Many options. If none of the above seems more sensible than your choice, guess we will have to disagree.

 

Posters on here, pro this or pro that, aren't the governments, leadership or even people involved. That you try to imply that, is the same nonsense as the 'we' stuff addressed earlier.

 

Israel calls the shots? Like in this here situation? Seriously? The same 'passive Palestinians' bit again? Quite condensing for a 'supporter'. Comments on this made on parallel topics, enjoy at your leisure. You want to pin it all on one side, you're not here to 'discuss' anything meaningful, or 'interested to know' much - you've made your mind.

 

Sure, hostility just from one side. Guess I've missed most them open-minded, polite, sincere poster on 'your' side, and just ran into the bad apples. Whatever you say, sunshine.

 

 

 

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, placnx said:

As others suggested, in Israel the mood could change for various reasons and the generals could not follow through with their (and Netanyahu's) plan to eradicate Hamas. So I suggested that Hamas could be made to give up power by external actors who would see that a political alternative replaced Hamas. There would still remain the question of a security force so that remnants of Hamas could not stage a coup.

 

You 'suggested' but neglected to explain how Hamas could be 'made to give up power', by whom, and in who's favor.