Could an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza meet its aims?

[thaibeachlovers]

30 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I will take that as you can't find any

I've noticed that a lot. That side posts all sorts of things without links and when asked to do so make it someone else's job to find the links.

Happens to me all the time.

[vinny41]

Death to Arabs chants

It is typically chanted at marches in Jerusalem (e.g., the Dance of Flags) and at football matches, and has also appeared in graffiti vandalism; it is a recurrent aspect of Israeli settler violence in the West Bank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_to_Arabs

US and UN condemn anti-Arab chants at Jerusalem march

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-un-condemn-anti-arab-chants-jerusalem-march-2023-05-19/

ISRAEL’S NEW LEADERS WON’T STOP “DEATH TO ARABS” CHANTS, BUT THEY WILL FEEL BAD ABOUT THEM

Israel's "change coalition" facilitated, then criticized, a Jewish supremacist rally in East Jerusalem, where Palestinians were threatened by racists and assaulted by the police.

Haven't seen any condemnation from the israeli government about this chant so hopefully a forum member will post a link to prove me wrong

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

And? It clearly says "overwhelmingly male Orthodox teens"

The article clearly states

The marchers, who were overwhelmingly male Orthodox teens and young men, 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, vinny41 said:

The article clearly states

The marchers, who were overwhelmingly male Orthodox teens and young men, 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march

Yes I know................lol

[thaibeachlovers]

On 10/18/2023 at 1:41 PM, Social Media said:

"I don't think Israel can dismantle every Hamas member, because it's an idea of extremist Islam," says military analyst Amir Bar Shalom of Israel's Army Radio. "But you can weaken it as much as you can so it has no operational capabilities."

They will never defeat Hamas as it's an idea, not an army or a country. For every Palestinian they kill, probably a dozen more become Hamas supporters. They can kill every Gazan ( which is what they apparently want to do ), but Hamas will live on in every Arab country.

Israel is headed, IMO, towards perpetual war, as thousands of boys grow up wanting revenge on israel.

israel apparently hasn't learned in 30 years that repression doesn't create peace.

If they think they can just kill every Palestinian, and have peace, they will fail, and they will never have peace.

Jews claim they are God's chosen people, but if so, God apparently doesn't like the ones in israel very much, to surround them with those that hate them.

[Longwood50]

On 10/18/2023 at 7:41 AM, Social Media said:

Israel's leaders have declared that Hamas will be wiped off the face of the Earth and Gaza will never go back to what it was

Why it was ever allowed in the first place other than huge pressure from the USA to "get along" is something I will never understand. 

I have been to Israel. Most don't realize exactly how close in proximity certain areas including the Golan Heights are to populated areas of Israel.  You do not bring those who want to kill you in close proximity to your home and expect that somehow they will have a change of heart and peacefully co-exist.  

[thaibeachlovers]

12 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

Why it was ever allowed in the first place other than huge pressure from the USA to "get along" is something I will never understand. 

Please explain huge pressure from the USA to "get along".

 

I have no idea what you mean by that. What pressure?

 

Do you realise that israel was created in an area already populated and they couldn't just get rid of them all in 1948, so were condemned to live in close proximity?

[Longwood50]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I have no idea what you mean by that. What pressure?

 

Do you realise that israel was created in an area already populated and they couldn't just get rid of them all in 1948, so were condemned to live in close proximity?

Explaining the Carter Administration's Israeli–Palestinian ...

JSTOR

https://www.jstor.org › stable

 

 

 

by J PRESSMAN · 2013 · Cited by 27 — Israel's peace process stance.130 Internally, Edward Sanders drafted a memo to. Carter warning that U.S. pressure on Israel to try to get

 

The USA has always danced a fine line between the Arab nations who they need for OIL and Israel who has traditionally been an ally. 

Yes in 1948 the territory was occupied.  As I said, that was the fallacy assuming that you could take a piece of land that you did not own, cede it to become Israel and not completely rid the area of elements that you knew would never agree to peacefully co-exist. 

 
I stand by my comment that the USA has long pressured Israel to make peace with its neighbors.  Unfortunately those neighbors include those who harbor such deep seated hatred of Jews that making peace is just plain impossible.  

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by metisdead
Edited as per fair use policy.

[thaibeachlovers]

32 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

I stand by my comment that the USA has long pressured Israel to make peace with its neighbors. 

Given the amount of money they give to israel and the veto in the UN, if the US actually wanted to pressure israel they have all the tools they need to force israel to make peace.

That they never have gives the lie to that idea.

 

Now they don't even pretend to be even handed, and are all in for israel.

[thaibeachlovers]

36 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

I can argue both ways on the Nation of Israel.  The claims to the land pre-date Christ by upwards of 2,500 years. 

Of all the arguments saying that modern israel has a claim to that land, that is the most laughable.

 

Over the past 2,000 years since the Jews were expelled from ancient israel, many areas of planet earth have changed hands.

Only those with continuous ownership ( like the unfortunate Australian Aborigines ) have a valid claim on a piece of dirt. IMO modern Jews had no such right, and but for powerful men in western countries that were zionist by inclination, modern israel would not exist. Likely it would still be part of Jordan, and the rest of the planet would not have been disturbed by the perpetual conflict in that area.

Perhaps the Soviets knew the trauma they were visiting on the western world when they abstained and allowed the UN to create israel.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, Longwood50 said:

Sorry, "

I disagree.  The USA has given huge amounts of money to countries sworn to destroy Israel including Iran.  Obama gave $900 million and Biden just pledged another $100 million.  

Clinton brought Yassar Arafat to meet with Yitzhak Rabin  and pressure Israel. 

You don't give money to the enemies of your ally and then somehow say that it is one sided.  Saying it is "humanitarian aid" is BS.  Like most money sent by the USA to to other countries, once there it can just as easily be used to purchase military supplies as hospital supplies. 

The USA in recent years has distanced itself from Israel no longer pledging the unconditional support it once did. 

The USA in recent years has distanced itself from Israel no longer pledging the unconditional support it once did. 

 

Biden obviously disagrees with you. Perhaps you missed his speeches in israel vowing unconditional support?

 

The USA has given huge amounts of money to countries sworn to destroy Israel including Iran.  Obama gave $900 million and Biden just pledged another $100 million.  

As I understand it that was Iranian money.

 

Yes Clinton did try, but not hard enough.

[Longwood50]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Of all the arguments saying that modern israel has a claim to that land, that is the most laughable.

It is not laughable.  It is a fact.  As I said EVENTS have reshaped the map of the world for centuries.  One event was the Romans kicking the Jews out of Israel.  The other significant event is that Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin recreated the state of Israel.  

The Romans had no more right to kick the Jews out of Israel than the Allies had a right to re-create it.  So which event do you wish to recognize. 

The American Indian was kicked out of their territory.  To say they have no legitimate claim is to ignore history.  The Jews inhabiting of that region far predates the Arabs. 

One way or another you can be on the side of Israel, or the side of the Palestinians. What you cant do if you are a sane human being is condone the slaughter of innocent people in the name of your cause and somehow justify it. 

[Longwood50]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Yes Clinton did try, but not hard enough.

As said, the USA has always pressured Israel.  You only say that because apparently you side with the Palestinians.  There will be those who are pro Israel who will say the USA did not pressure the Arabs to vacate a region that history says they have no claim to. 

 

[nausea]

One thing's for sure, you can't be casualty averse in urban warfare.

Edited October 20, 2023 by nausea
Spelling

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They will never defeat Hamas as it's an idea, not an army or a country. For every Palestinian they kill, probably a dozen more become Hamas supporters. They can kill every Gazan ( which is what they apparently want to do ), but Hamas will live on in every Arab country.

Israel is headed, IMO, towards perpetual war, as thousands of boys grow up wanting revenge on israel.

israel apparently hasn't learned in 30 years that repression doesn't create peace.

If they think they can just kill every Palestinian, and have peace, they will fail, and they will never have peace.

Jews claim they are God's chosen people, but if so, God apparently doesn't like the ones in israel very much, to surround them with those that hate them.

Did you fail to read the last part of the comment you quoted?

 

And no, not all Palestinians are Hamas supporters, not all are totally blind to the problems Hamas creates. As for Hamas 'living on' in every Arab country - do yourself a favor and check just how many Arab countries support Hamas, and how many oppose it. Maybe consider Egypt's blockade of Gaza as a reference point.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

One way or another you can be on the side of Israel, or the side of the Palestinians. What you cant do if you are a sane human being is condone the slaughter of innocent people in the name of your cause and somehow justify it. 

I'm on the side of the oppressed. I used to be on the side of the israelis but that was a very long time ago.

I don't like bullies.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

What you cant do if you are a sane human being is condone the slaughter of innocent people in the name of your cause and somehow justify it. 

Quite a lot of innocent children being slaughtered in Gaza, so does that mean you think the israelis are not sane?

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm on the side of the oppressed. I used to be on the side of the israelis but that was a very long time ago.

I don't like bullies.

Are Hamas 'the oppressed'? Was their barbaric attack on Israel justified? Does the Hamas not oppress the people of the Gaza Strip?

[metisdead]

An off topic deflection post and the replies contravening our Community Standards have been removed.

 

A post with a screenshot of a news item has been removed as there was no valid link provided to the source. 

[BarraMarra]

6 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Thousands of Jewish nationalists, some of them chanting “Death to Arabs” and other racist slogans, paraded on Thursday through the main Palestinian thoroughfare of Jerusalem’s Old City, in an annual display that caused new friction between Jews and Palestinians in the tense city.

Israeli crowds chant racist slogans, taunt Palestinians during Jerusalem Day march

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march

Can't see this Thread lasting long its already wrecked and lost its Topic.

[Longwood50]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Quite a lot of innocent children being slaughtered in Gaza, so does that mean you think the israelis are not sane

If you don't see the difference betwen an unprovoked attack and a response to it, I can only explain it to you, I can't help you with the understanding part. 

I do not see Israel sending missles into Gaza unprovoked,  I don't Israel entering Palestine capturing civilians and holding them hostage.  I don't see Israel caputuring civilians and executing them for ties to Hammas.  

Now perhaps you don't see the difference in behavior but I can assure you the civilized world does. 

[Longwood50]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm on the side of the oppressed. I used to be on the side of the israelis but that was a very long time ago.

I don't like bullies.

The "oppressed"  I guess that depends on the very subjective opinion of who is oppressed.  One way or another, the UN sanctioned the partition of Gaza in 1947.  Such is history.  

Irrespective of who can rightfully hold themselves to be the owners of Palestine, the fact remains a civilized people act in a civilized manner.  Hurling rockets and taking prisoners in my opinion only hardens the resolve of Israel and clearly loses any sympathy with the world community. 

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

I don't Israel entering Palestine capturing civilians and holding them hostage. 

LOL. In case you missed it, for years every Gazan has been confined to the strip and are 'hostage" to the israelis, or are you going to say that they can leave any time they want and return? Can they get goods from abroad through their own port, and can they use their own airport?

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Hurling rockets and taking prisoners in my opinion only hardens the resolve of Israel and clearly loses any sympathy with the world community. 

Given it's the israelis hurling rockets at and bombing civilian residences it's only hardening the resolve of those that hate israel and israel is losing any sympathy from the world community. 

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

One way or another, the UN sanctioned the partition of Gaza in 1947.  Such is history.  

Yes they did, and we have all suffered since for that. We even had to have our shoes x rayed because of the threat of revenge attacks on planes.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

the fact remains a civilized people act in a civilized manner.

How many children is a civilized country allowed to bomb to bits before they stop being civilized?

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

I don't see Israel caputuring civilians and executing them for ties to Hammas.  

What are you smoking?

Every time israeli forces raid the Palestinians looking to arrest Hamas supporters and destroying Palestinian property they leave dead Palestinians behind.

 

https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/20/headlines/israeli_raid_and_airstrike_on_west_bank_refugee_camp_kills_13_palestinians_including_children

In the occupied West Bank, the Palestinian Health Ministry says 13 people were killed Thursday as Israeli forces bombed and raided the Nur Shams refugee camp. Seven of those killed were children — two of them just 10 years old.

[Morch]

58 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. In case you missed it, for years every Gazan has been confined to the strip and are 'hostage" to the israelis, or are you going to say that they can leave any time they want and return? Can they get goods from abroad through their own port, and can they use their own airport?

And them bad Israelis did this because...? Did the blockade on the Gaza Strip had something to do with Hamas agenda? Actions? Also, was there always such a blockade on the Gaza Strip? Same restriction? 

 

It's one thing not being able to 'leave' for Israel, but how about Egypt? How come an Arab country won't allow them in? One would imagine the sense of Arab solidarity with the Palestinians, claimed in many of your posts, would apply.

 

And sure, give Hamas free accesses to materials and hardware needed to manufacture more rockets, what could go wrong?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Given it's the israelis hurling rockets at and bombing civilian residences it's only hardening the resolve of those that hate israel and israel is losing any sympathy from the world community. 

So far, seems like most Gazans wisely chose not to stay at their homes and die for the cause, as urged by Hamas.

 

But do go on about 'resolve'.

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Morch

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Yes they did, and we have all suffered since for that. We even had to have our shoes x rayed because of the threat of revenge attacks on planes.

Please share how have you 'suffered since for that'.