Question concerning new foreign income tax

[Jinxed1]

Hi,

 

Since the new foreign income tax is supposed to be effective on Jan 1st 2024, do you think any money remitted from now to Jan 1st will be subject to this tax for the March 2024 tax filing?

Or is it still gonna be exempt, and only money remitted after the law is effective is subject to tax?

 

I'm wondering if I should remit a big chunk of money now since it's the last time it will be exempted from taxes

 

Thank you

[The Cyclist]

I think the start date of 01 Jan 2024 is a dead giveaway.

 

Otherwise I would be running around with my head on fire, panicking about all the income I remitted to Thailand between 2009 and 2020.

[Dmaxdan]

You may be exempt from paying any tax full stop. Particularly if you hail from a country that that has a taxation agreement in place with Thailand.

Nobody knows yet because nothing that is relevant to most expats has been clarified yet, despite what the so called experts will tell you.

So far it's nothing more than another Thailand train wreck.

[topt]

@Jinxed1 knock yourself out -

https://aseannow.com/topic/1306896-thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

 

Currently 113 pages of in depth analysis of almost every facet of Thailand's personal tax code and how people believe it works or may work or should work.........

[Jinxed1]

5 minutes ago, topt said:

@Jinxed1 knock yourself out -

https://aseannow.com/topic/1306896-thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

 

Currently 113 pages of in depth analysis of almost every facet of Thailand's personal tax code and how people believe it works or may work or should work.........

yeah saw those, and asked my question 3 times there but no one answered - obviously cant read the whole 113 pages

Do you think any chance we get more information before Jan 1st ?

[Sheryl]

until 1 January the prior tax code provision prevails which is that income brought into the country after the year in which it as earned is not taxable.

 

So you are fine for money brought in now assuming it was not earned this year.

 

Whether or not future remittances would be taxable depends on a host of complex factors.  You should carefully read the Tax treaty between your country and Thailand. Often some types of income (e.g. government pensions) are not taxable in Thailand while other types are but it does vary from treaty to treaty.

 

IF you have an income stream which under the relevant tax treaty is not taxable in Thailand then it would make sense to limit remittances after 1 January to that and bring into the country now whatever additional you might need to get by on that in future.

[topt]

4 minutes ago, Jinxed1 said:

yeah saw those, and asked my question 3 times there but no one answered - obviously cant read the whole 113 pages

Do you think any chance we get more information before Jan 1st ?

If you asked then you must have read some of it.....lots of comments about people bringing in a wad prior to 1/01/24.

 

Be aware however if bringing in this year, and one is tax resident for this year, and it is income generated this year, than theoretically it is liable to tax in the return everybody in that situation will, of course ,  be making between 1/01 and 31/03.........

 

For transfers after 1/01/24 it won't really be an issue until return done after 1/01/25.........

 

So to answer your question with a question - which Jan 1st are you referring to.

 

Basically nobody really knows and it is currently all conjecture.

 

 

[Jinxed1]

is there any proof to submit about the "income brought into the country after the year in which it as earned" part when you file the return though? i'd have a hard time proving the exact year

[JimTripper]

how do you have relationships here when people can't speak your language? the more i think about it the crazier it seems.

[Jinxed1]

39 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

how do you have relationships here when people can't speak your language? the more i think about it the crazier it seems.

sorry how is it related?

[Lorry]

5 hours ago, Jinxed1 said:

is there any proof to submit about the "income brought into the country after the year in which it as earned" part when you file the return though? i'd have a hard time proving the exact year

https://aseannow.com/topic/1262406-questions-about-taxation-tin/?do=findComment&comment=17412506

[aublumberg]

Thailand Foreign Source Income Personal Tax - SHERRINGS

[yeahbutif]

Think one of the main questions is to do with pensions. As it says only tax on money that came into Thailand in that rac year from jan 2024... So if a person has there retirement pensions paid from pension a company or government straight into a Thai bank would this be come taxable?

[salavan]

16 hours ago, Dmaxdan said:

You may be exempt from paying any tax full stop. Particularly if you hail from a country that that has a taxation agreement in place with Thailand.

Nobody knows yet because nothing that is relevant to most expats has been clarified yet, despite what the so called experts will tell you.

So far it's nothing more than another Thailand train wreck.

A UK Thai tax agreement covers some but not all income, it covers income from property but not income/interest from bank or building society so you will have to pay Thai tax on any building society and bank interest you receive in the UK. 

[bob smith]

16 hours ago, Dmaxdan said:

You may be exempt from paying any tax full stop. Particularly if you hail from a country that that has a taxation agreement in place with Thailand.

Nobody knows yet because nothing that is relevant to most expats has been clarified yet, despite what the so called experts will tell you.

So far it's nothing more than another Thailand train wreck.

There’s been plenty of them over the years!!

[Robin]

What about capital brought into Thailand before 1/1/24.  If teh money is in a bank in Singapore, then how can I prove it is or not income.

if I bring in money from UK, that is exempt from Capital Gains Tax in UK, how will it be treated in Thailand?

[Jinxed1]

7 hours ago, Robin said:

What about capital brought into Thailand before 1/1/24.  If teh money is in a bank in Singapore, then how can I prove it is or not income.

if I bring in money from UK, that is exempt from Capital Gains Tax in UK, how will it be treated in Thailand?

Yes that's exactly my  question & situation, I couldnt prove that money is income or not and even less on which year i earned it

 

Seems like most people on the main thread expect it to be exempted if brought before 1/1/24

 

[federicoP]

22 hours ago, aublumberg said:

Thailand Foreign Source Income Personal Tax - SHERRINGS

This excellent link, posted by aublumberg, is absolutely clear, correct and complete.

 

I see that nobody is quoting it, but I believe that if everyone go through this link they would find many answers to the questions they are about to write on this forum.

[UKresonant]

On 10/21/2023 at 4:06 AM, yeahbutif said:

Think one of the main questions is to do with pensions. As it says only tax on money that came into Thailand in that rac year from jan 2024... So if a person has there retirement pensions paid from pension a company or government straight into a Thai bank would this be come taxable?

UK DTA  "19. (2) (a) Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local
authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature
rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable
only in that State"    (Unless you are a Thai National).

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

Government Pensions = Full Relief

Other Pensions & Annuities = No relief

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/710099/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

 

The pension from Government Service  ( I've got a smaller bit of pension direct from the Gov. and another bigger bit which is paid from a company, but was for other purposes continuous service. probably only take the first bit as full relief likely.)

All other pensions all potentially taxable in Thailand as far as I can see, if there more than 180 days.

 

The thing is, that is the situation this year and before as well, there is no upcoming change I know of!

 

There is no change, so they don't seem to be targeting pension income before or now??? Is that because many other DTAs exclude pensions? Is it because the pensions are pre-taxed in the UK, and will create much extra work? Not sure what the Thai RD practice form Jan 2024 will be.....

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by UKresonant

[HuskerDo2]

On 10/20/2023 at 8:10 AM, Sheryl said:

until 1 January the prior tax code provision prevails which is that income brought into the country after the year in which it as earned is not taxable.

 

So you are fine for money brought in now assuming it was not earned this year.

 

Whether or not future remittances would be taxable depends on a host of complex factors.  You should carefully read the Tax treaty between your country and Thailand. Often some types of income (e.g. government pensions) are not taxable in Thailand while other types are but it does vary from treaty to treaty.

 

IF you have an income stream which under the relevant tax treaty is not taxable in Thailand then it would make sense to limit remittances after 1 January to that and bring into the country now whatever additional you might need to get by on that in future.

"assuming it was not earned this year"...... Does "earned" include things like pensions and Social Security?

 

Thanks Sheryl! You always have great input/information.

[Dan O]

15 hours ago, federicoP said:

This excellent link, posted by aublumberg, is absolutely clear, correct and complete.

 

I see that nobody is quoting it, but I believe that if everyone go through this link they would find many answers to the questions they are about to write on this forum.

Is it actually complete? It's a very good explanation of the Thai tax law but that only addresses 1 side of the tax equation. It doesn't address the dual tax treaties between countries that exclude certain moneys that are exempt from being taxed by Thailand

[federicoP]

7 hours ago, Dan O said:

It doesn't address the dual tax treaties between countries that exclude certain moneys that are exempt from being taxed by Thailand

Thailand has DTAs with around sixty different countries, too ambitious to find a link that covers them all

[Dan O]

7 minutes ago, federicoP said:

Thailand has DTAs with around sixty different countries, too ambitious to find a link that covers them all

Thats correct and deserved at least a mention to refer back to your prospective country for the specific details on DTA. The DTA's make the panic about this taxing issue almost unnecessary in most instances. 

[Ben Zioner]

On 10/20/2023 at 8:19 PM, Jinxed1 said:

is there any proof to submit about the "income brought into the country after the year in which it as earned" part when you file the return though? i'd have a hard time proving the exact year

Banks statements would be the obvious choice. Showing your remittances of year Y are equal or less than your earnings of year  Y-1. Hope most people can confirm as we can rule out thorough audits going back any  number of years in case of audits.

[Ben Zioner]

42 minutes ago, federicoP said:

Thailand has DTAs with around sixty different countries, too ambitious to find a link that covers them all

We are only a the beginning of a process, it will take years but their ultimate target should be to tax all incomes and possibly assets, not only remittances. This is the case in most  countries  in Europe. I have heard of a French Health Minister who got sacked and spent time in prison for having omitted to declare a Swiss bank account of about half a million Euros. This was enabled by an assets tax, which I think is now missing in Thailand...

 

I am not saying I am in support of this, but I would if they stamped out corruption first.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[federicoP]

On 10/21/2023 at 7:37 PM, Jinxed1 said:

Yes that's exactly my  question & situation, I couldnt prove that money is income or not and even less on which year i earned it

It seems that up to now the Revenue has never speculated when the remittances from abroad for expats were earned, and everything suggests that this will be the case until December 31st.

I wouldn't worry about it.

From January 1st this will no longer matter, only the year in which the money was brought to Thailand will matter.
And this is the real and only recent change to the Thai tax rules we are talking about.

[Sheryl]

9 hours ago, HuskerDo2 said:

"assuming it was not earned this year"...... Does "earned" include things like pensions and Social Security?

 

Thanks Sheryl! You always have great input/information.

Yes earned includes such things.  But in ths case of US Social Security it cannot be taxed in Thailand per the US Thai Tax Agreement. DITTO uS government pensions. Terms of other countries' treaties vary when it comes to pensions. 

[StayinThailand2much]

On 10/20/2023 at 8:49 PM, Jinxed1 said:

On 10/20/2023 at 8:10 PM, JimTripper said:

how do you have relationships here when people can't speak your language? the more i think about it the crazier it seems.

sorry how is it related?

Perhaps JimTripper is referring to the problem of English proficiency in Thailand if one, as a foreigner, has to communicate with the Revenue Department, tax lawyers, etc., etc. - Will all foreigners, who stay longer than 180 days in Thailand, have to become fluent, not only in general Thai, but also Thai tax terminology?

Edited October 23, 2023 by StayinThailand2much

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, Dan O said:

Thats correct and deserved at least a mention to refer back to your prospective country for the specific details on DTA. The DTA's make the panic about this taxing issue almost unnecessary in most instances. 

I'm not so sure about these DTA's. I get a German pension, I don't pay tax in Germany on my pension as according to one written remark on a tax form the German tax authorities assume I will be paying tax in Thailand on my pension but in a recent 'letter of income' from the German consulate for the 'io' there is a paragraph stating that I should be exempt from taxation on my pension due to DTA with Thailand.

[Dan O]

49 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I'm not so sure about these DTA's. I get a German pension, I don't pay tax in Germany on my pension as according to one written remark on a tax form the German tax authorities assume I will be paying tax in Thailand on my pension but in a recent 'letter of income' from the German consulate for the 'io' there is a paragraph stating that I should be exempt from taxation on my pension due to DTA with Thailand.

You need to read the DTA to see what it says. I have a US Social Security benefit that I don't pay any tax on but I'm exempt per the DTA from taxes in Thailand and elsewhere