Analysis The Gaza diplomacy of Biden, Sunak and co seems to be heading for failure

[newbee2022]

6 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

There were about 100 massacres of Jews and Arabs with 1000's killed in the land from 1920 to Israel's formation in 1948

And before 1920? Ongoing war? Between whom? 

Actually it was a peaceful area

[mrmicbkktxl]

11 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

Right. Before it was made to that Promised Land, Jews, Muslims and Christians lived there together in peace. Only after the foreign Jews invaded the country problems started, initiated by the New Israelian citizens.

What a total bs!!!The arabs wanted the Israelis out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On many ocassions Israel offered them 2 state solution,but the arabs declined and attacked Israel and always got fuc.......The whole sh.. is not about the land but about the arabs need the jews wiped out

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

And before 1920? Ongoing war? Between whom? 

Actually it was a peaceful area

You can read about it here .

https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/The-Crusades

 

 

 

[Denim]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Hamas bombs Israel

Israel bombs Gaza, a tiny fraction of 1% are Hamas

 

This is not an answer.  Israel should only go after Hamas, collateral damage of thousands of Palestinians can't be right, it sounds like a war crime to me.

 

Imagine a shooter kills people in a market and runs into a nearby bank containing 200 people, it would not be acceptable to kill everyone in the bank in order to kill the shooter, yet the analogy isn't far off.

 

A better man would not retaliate this way.

Agreed , the reaction of Israel and America is actually rewarding terrorism , playing into the terrorists hands by doing exactly what Hamas expected themn to do. 

Now , Islamic extremists the world over will rally to the cause and the end result will be more innocent people killed , including many Israelies.

 

Of the options open to Israel , they have chosen the worst.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Their God would tell them to turn the other cheek.

 

A flippant answer I grant you, but any solution should not involve killing thousands of innocents.

 

Israel is at war with Hamas, not Gaza.

That's a Christian concept, and can't say Christians took much heed of it anyway.

 

Hamas went into this knowing the consequences. Hamas leadership calls on citizens to remain in harm's way, and says casualties are necessary sacrifices. Hamas embeds itself within civilian population.

 

And you keep banging on about some elusive magic solution....without actually saying much.

 

 

 

[Morch]

17 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

The Hamas charter is not speaking for Palestine but only a few thousands people.

And one of those good examples of working countries is our neighbour, Malaysia.

Hamas direct membership is much higher than 'only a few thousands people'. Hamas is supported by a whole lot of the Palestinians, and even won the last general elections held. Get the facts straight, then come back to discuss things.

 

Last I checked, Malaysia is not in the ME. If you think culture, and issues between communities are the same, see the comment above.

 

 

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Nonsense.

 

What would your messiah trump do?

 

No doubt toss rolls of paper towels.

 

Or maybe pressure Netanyahu to offer up some dirt on Biden in exchange for aid.

I was going to say meet for a photo op with Hamas leadership.....

[Bkk Brian]

59 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

As a Brit, I am fully aware of the history and we must take the blame for initiating the whole problem. My head is not in the sand, I am very well informed about the history of this conflict.  As I said above, I condemn Hamas for their attack, I also condemn Israel for their response in killing thousands of innocents.  another solution needs to be found, but collateral damage on this scale is not acceptable, it looks more like bloody revenge to me than anything else.

I disagree, your head is firmly in the sand, in your initial post you certainly did NOT condemn Hamas but you did talk about the possible war crimes by Israel. Now wind back and see exactly why Israel is responding like this. Its not because of the rockets as you claimed. Its because over 1,400 innocent lives of civilians were slaughtered by ISIS style Terrorists. Many tortured, raped and even beheaded. A direct targeting of defenseless civilians and the abduction of over 200 more still in captivity. Those are the war crimes that started this. 

 

Israel is ensuring this never happens again.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Bkk Brian

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

And before 1920? Ongoing war? Between whom? 

Actually it was a peaceful area

It was not really that peaceful. And it was controlled by the Ottoman Empire.

 

Now, this here is a topic discussing current events.

You and a bunch of other posters seem to mistake it for a history class.

How about addressing something that's more directly related to the OP? It's not like you're doing yourself any favors with what you posted so far, anyway.

 

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

What a total bs!!!The arabs wanted the Israelis out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On many ocassions Israel offered them 2 state solution,but the arabs declined and attacked Israel and always got fuc.......The whole sh.. is not about the land but about the arabs need the jews wiped out

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

You can read about it here .

https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/The-Crusades

 

 

 

Is Biden on a crusade?

[Denim]

31 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Their God would tell them to turn the other cheek.

 

 

On a technical point , wrong God. Christ and the Christian God were the ones for turning the other cheek.

 

Yahweh is a different case altogether. Eye for an eye type of God. The god of the jews has been described by some scholars as an elemental , strictly of this planet. Not the universal God Jesus refered to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elemental

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, Denim said:

Agreed , the reaction of Israel and America is actually rewarding terrorism , playing into the terrorists hands by doing exactly what Hamas expected themn to do. 

Now , Islamic extremists the world over will rally to the cause and the end result will be more innocent people killed , including many Israelies.

 

Of the options open to Israel , they have chosen the worst.

And what, realistically, do you think Israel could or should do, at present?

[retarius]

Doesn't everything US or UK in the world of foreign policy touch turn to war and chaos? Biden and Sunak....perfect together. 

[charleskerins]

5 hours ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Joe has been on the wrong end of every foreign policy for 5 decades... why would he change now.

Nope -you are on the wrong end.   

[xylophone]

26 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

You can read about it here .

https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/The-Crusades

 

 

 

Many thanks for this @Nick Carter icp as it gives the background to this mess; and for those who continue to post that, "there was no such place as Palestine in years gone by" then I suggest they read up on the history of the region from the link provided by you. 

[mrmicbkktxl]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

yes,and hamas refused because they don't recognise Israel's right to exist and claimed all the territory between Mediterranean and the Jordan river as rightfully Palestinian.hamas never accepted the Arab plan from 2002

[Morch]

1 minute ago, xylophone said:

Many thanks for this @Nick Carter icp as it gives the background to this mess; and for those who continue to post that, "there was no such place as Palestine in years gone by" then I suggest they read up on the history of the region from the link provided by you. 

The comments are usually about there not being a Palestinian state/country. That the region was called this or that doesn't change the fact or is ever directly relevant. This has been done to death on each and every topic dealing with conflict on these forums.

[transam]

3 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Many thanks for this @Nick Carter icp as it gives the background to this mess; and for those who continue to post that, "there was no such place as Palestine in years gone by" then I suggest they read up on the history of the region from the link provided by you. 

Then start your own history thread on the area.............😏

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

yes,and hamas refused because they don't recognise Israel's right to exist and claimed all the territory between Mediterranean and the Jordan river as rightfully Palestinian.hamas never accepted the Arab plan from 2002

I'm aware of Hamas's positions. Your comment was about Arabs. The point being that it's better to keep labels accurate as possible when discussing these issues.

[Denim]

Just now, Morch said:

And what, realistically, do you think Israel could or should do, at present?

As a start, without the bombing they could have competely sealed off Gaza from the outside world until the hostages are released.

Nothing in or out until this first step is complied with. 

Yes , innocent Palestinians , women and children , would still suffer but the ball would be in Hamas court. They would be seen as the ones responsible for the suffering and Israel would be seen as showing restraint.

 

Revenge is a dish best served cold. At the end of WW2 . Israel systematicaly tracked down and killed those Germans responsible for the holocaust that had escaped justice. The same should be done with regards to Hamas. Go after and kill those respensible for the acts of terrorism that started this latest round. Slow, yes, but a lot safer than the road Israel is currently taking. From now on , even Israelies in friendly Thailand will need to look over their shoulders.

 

But this is not looking at the big picture. Some jews may enjoy chanting ' death to the arabs ' but by no means all. Israel badly needs good governance by more moderate people. The likes of Netanyahu should not hold high office. People like him on both sides are part of the problem and they will never have a solution.

[transam]

11 minutes ago, retarius said:

Doesn't everything US or UK in the world of foreign policy touch turn to war and chaos? Biden and Sunak....perfect together. 

Then start your thread on it, really easy, even for you........😉

[WhatMeWorry]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

that would be a great theory, but Palestinians HAVENT owned it for thousands of years. The Ottomans owned, the British owned it, hell even the Romans owned it. And guess what? There were Jews there all along too. Not like suddenly in 1946, shiploads of concentration camp survivors just randomly looked at a map, pointed, and said "let's go THERE". 

 

The Palestinians have nobody to blame but themselves, and the Arab League. They thought they could simply massacre all the Jews in 1948, and reclaim what they wanted. Fortunately they were wrong. And thus the Palestinian refugee crisis was born. The same Arab League countries have refused to allow any civil or economic rights to the Palestinian refugees they begrudgingly host. One only needs to look at how other, civilized countries have treated Palestinians to see the stark contrast. 

So very true, no one Moslem country wants the so called Palestinians. They are like Soi dogs to the Moslem world. Give them some rice and hope they go away.

[charleskerins]

4 minutes ago, Denim said:

As a start, without the bombing they could have competely sealed off Gaza from the outside world until the hostages are released.

Nothing in or out until this first step is complied with. 

Yes , innocent Palestinians , women and children , would still suffer but the ball would be in Hamas court. They would be seen as the ones responsible for the suffering and Israel would be seen as showing restraint.

 

Revenge is a dish best served cold. At the end of WW2 . Israel systematicaly tracked down and killed those Germans responsible for the holocaust that had escaped justice. The same should be done with regards to Hamas. Go after and kill those respensible for the acts of terrorism that started this latest round. Slow, yes, but a lot safer than the road Israel is currently taking. From now on , even Israelies in friendly Thailand will need to look over their shoulders.

 

But this is not looking at the big picture. Some jews may enjoy chanting ' death to the arabs ' but by no means all. Israel badly needs good governance by more moderate people. The likes of Netanyahu should not hold high office. People like him on both sides are part of the problem and they will never have a solution.

intelligent and articulate post

[xylophone]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

Then start your own history thread on the area.............😏

Don't have to as it is all here........ https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/The-Crusades

[transam]

1 minute ago, xylophone said:

Don't have to as it is all here........ https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/The-Crusades

Some of us don't need a history lesson, thank you very much ...........🤓

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Denim said:

As a start, without the bombing they could have competely sealed off Gaza from the outside world until the hostages are released.

Nothing in or out until this first step is complied with. 

Yes , innocent Palestinians , women and children , would still suffer but the ball would be in Hamas court. They would be seen as the ones responsible for the suffering and Israel would be seen as showing restraint.

 

Revenge is a dish best served cold. At the end of WW2 . Israel systematicaly tracked down and killed those Germans responsible for the holocaust that had escaped justice. The same should be done with regards to Hamas. Go after and kill those respensible for the acts of terrorism that started this latest round. Slow, yes, but a lot safer than the road Israel is currently taking. From now on , even Israelies in friendly Thailand will need to look over their shoulders.

 

But this is not looking at the big picture. Some jews may enjoy chanting ' death to the arabs ' but by no means all. Israel badly needs good governance by more moderate people. The likes of Netanyahu should not hold high office. People like him on both sides are part of the problem and they will never have a solution.

 

I doubt this would have any different consequences as far as global public opinion goes. It would be seen as solely directed at civilians, to pressure Hamas. The current strategy allows for the claim that Israel fights Hamas. Further, Hamas doesn't seem to care much about the civilians under its rule, seeing them as legit sacrifices for the 'cause', it also tends to disregard World condemnation ,censure and opinion. Given that Hamas is well supplied, such a standoff could last months, in which public opinion would surely sway and nothing gained. This would also leave Hamas intact, with a significant victory under its belt and ready to go again.

 

There was a report (linked in on a parallel topic) that Israel already set a task force to identify and kill all those directly involved in the attack. Under the strategy you advice, there will be no direct access to the Gaza Strip, though, which may imply not much could be achieved.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that Netanyahu is a bad, toxic leader. But that's only one part of the equation - not like the other side got much to show in the leadership department either.

 

[Andre0720]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

I never commented or condoned Hamas.  Did you mean to say Israel in your first sentence?

 

I condemn Hamas's attack on Israel, I condemn Israel's response.  The only people I don't condemn is the innocent Palestinians dying in their thousands at Israel's hands.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

As a Brit, I am fully aware of the history and we must take the blame for initiating the whole problem. My head is not in the sand, I am very well informed about the history of this conflict.  As I said above, I condemn Hamas for their attack, I also condemn Israel for their response in killing thousands of innocents.  another solution needs to be found, but collateral damage on this scale is not acceptable, it looks more like bloody revenge to me than anything else.

Well no. I did mean Hamas.

It was a response to your comment as follows: 'This is not an answer.  Israel should only go after Hamas, collateral damage of thousands of Palestinians can't be right, it sounds like a war crime to me."

So you are saying that ISRAEL should only go after HAMAS, so my question was: "Who in your opinion should HAMAS have targeted?" Certainly not party goers right?

So there was retaliation.... And you would then impose on ISRAEL to go to their drawing board, and slowly try to establish a proportionate response to the attack by HAMAS. You claim that ISRAEL should remain calm, think a lot, go on a meditation experience before attempting any response.

Douglas Murray has commented a lot on this idea of 'proportionality of response', during a conflict. His final comment, it is ridiculous and impossible to achieve.

All attemps to resolve the Palestine-Israel conflict, were accepted by Israel and all rejected by Palestine. 3 attempts through the years are well documented.

 

What must be understood here, is that other Arab Muslims countries do not want to help the Palestinians by accepting them as immigrant, even Egypt, which is 90% Sunni Muslim, do not want them, even if they share a border. Because wherever these Palestinian go, there are problems. London.... ... Now why in this world would Israel want them, Israel being so hated by Palestinians. Certainly not conducive to friendly ambiance now one would think. Well, actually, Muslims are intolerant to any other culture that they consider as 'infidels'. Their own do not even want them...

Edited October 23, 2023 by Andre0720

[xylophone]

26 minutes ago, transam said:

Some of us don't need a history lesson, thank you very much ...........🤓

My pleasure, but the link contains information that I would suggest many are not aware of.........or indeed do not want to know about!

 

Anyway enough of my comments on this thread because like others of this ilk, it will go nowhere and if generation upon generation of well-meaning countries/people/governments have tried to solve it, and failed, then it won't be solved here, so therefore most posts will be meaningless.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by xylophone

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

When Israel gave the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians,

LOL. It was never israel's to "give" them. The israelis illegally occupied it till they were "persuaded" to leave.

If you are going to comment, try and get it right.