Taxation of Ex-Pats pensions etc.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, MeaMaximaCulpa said:

You may want to think again...

You may be right. However, permit me to doubt the CRS is aimed at a couple of million baht in an expat account, with transfers of the odd 100,000 baht. They are after bigger fish, who are laundering millions of greenbacks.

IIRC there's a cash threshold of $10,000 one has to declare when I take that amount out of Australia, anything less I don't have to report it.

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

You may be right. However, permit me to doubt the CRS is aimed at a couple of million baht in an expat account, with transfers of the odd 100,000 baht. They are after bigger fish, who are laundering millions of greenbacks.

IIRC there's a cash threshold of $10,000 one has to declare when I take that amount out of Australia, anything less I don't have to report it.

That is very possible, but they now have the full capabilities to see everything. If they will in fact use it to get us "small fry" or not only time will tell.

[Mike Lister]

19 minutes ago, MeaMaximaCulpa said:

That is very possible, but they now have the full capabilities to see everything. If they will in fact use it to get us "small fry" or not only time will tell.

CRS data is consolidated data, it's a very high level aggregation, it doesn't show individuals detail.....can you imagine how many transactions and how much data that would mean!.

[Havefunme]

Why don't you Google your treaty with Thailand see what it says in America they can't tax our social security or our pension so Americans are good its that simple if your able to read English 

[Mike Lister]

10 hours ago, Havefunme said:

Why don't you Google your treaty with Thailand see what it says in America they can't tax our social security or our pension so Americans are good its that simple if your able to read English 

In English that would be you're, not your.

[scorecard]

20 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Whenever I see yet another thread being raised on this topic, I immediatly refer back to the original article on this matter, which stated quite clearly:

 

'Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.              (with apologies to the mods for the use of big fonts!)

 

That's my mantra, and I'm sticking to it.

Plus, in addition to the above, it's been said clearly that state pensions that are by law tax exempt in the originating country will be respected as tax exempt when these funds arrive in LOS.

 

Plus, it's been said clearly that these new laws / adjusted laws, if ever implemented, are aimed at one cohort - Thai citizens who earn big money abroad and currently don't pay Thai tax on these big earnings.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

14 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Plus, in addition to the above, it's been said clearly that state pensions that are by law tax exempt in the originating country will be respected as tax exempt when these funds arrive in LOS.

 

Plus, it's been said clearly that these new laws / adjusted laws, if ever implemented, are aimed at one cohort - Thai citizens who earn big money abroad and currently don't pay Thai tax on these big earnings.

 

 

The UK State pension is not exempt from tax in the UK but at present it does fall within the Personal Allowance hence it is not taxed. But there is no statute that says it cannot be taxed in the future.

[sqwakvfr]

I have read a translation of this law or proposed law and see a problem with the terms money and income.  1) If I have pension income from the US and it is direct deposited into a US Bank then I do not see how I would get taxed by the Thai Government 2) If I have US Social Security income (I will in a few years ) and it is direct deposited into a Thai Bank account then I could see a path to have it taxed by the Thai Government because it is foreign income or money that is brought into the Land of Smiles 3) If I transfer part of my US Pension income into a Thai Bank Account then I could see a path for the Thai Government to impose a "transfer" tax on it.  I am not sure if the US-Thai Tax treaty covers money that is transferred? 

 

As always the translation of any Thai Law or proposed law causes a degree of confusion and uncertainty.  So far this year I have not transferred any money into the Land of Smiles. I have done it the "old fashioned" way by using the ATM method. Who knows maybe in the future withdrawing money from my US bank account through a Thai Bank ATM will be considered as an international transfer?    

 

What would be nice is precise clarity on this issue from the Thai Government.  Now back to reality because precision and clarity are rarely present in the Land of Smiles. 

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

I have read a translation of this law or proposed law and see a problem with the terms money and income.  1) If I have pension income from the US and it is direct deposited into a US Bank then I do not see how I would get taxed by the Thai Government 2) If I have US Social Security income (I will in a few years ) and it is direct deposited into a Thai Bank account then I could see a path to have it taxed by the Thai Government because it is foreign income or money that is brought into the Land of Smiles 3) If I transfer part of my US Pension income into a Thai Bank Account then I could see a path for the Thai Government to impose a "transfer" tax on it.  I am not sure if the US-Thai Tax treaty covers money that is transferred? 

 

As always the translation of any Thai Law or proposed law causes a degree of confusion and uncertainty.  So far this year I have not transferred any money into the Land of Smiles. I have done it the "old fashioned" way by using the ATM method. Who knows maybe in the future withdrawing money from my US bank account through a Thai Bank ATM will be considered as an international transfer?    

 

What would be nice is precise clarity on this issue from the Thai Government.  Now back to reality because precision and clarity are rarely present in the Land of Smiles. 

Re: 2. US Social Security is exempt by treaty.

[mfd101]

20 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

So far this year I have not transferred any money into the Land of Smiles. I have done it the "old fashioned" way by using the ATM method.

Why would you be (already) using such an expensive transfer method (poor exchange rates + atm costs)?

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

11 hours ago, Havefunme said:

Why don't you Google your treaty with Thailand see what it says in America they can't tax our social security or our pension so Americans are good its that simple if your able to read English 

 

English lessons not welcome here. 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Moonlover

[Ben Zioner]

13 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

CRS data is consolidated data, it's a very high level aggregation, it doesn't show individuals detail.....can you imagine how many transactions and how much data that would mean!.

Nonsense.

 

"The Common Reporting Standard (CRS), developed in response to the G20 request and approved by the OECD Council on 15 July 2014, calls on jurisdictions to obtain information from their financial institutions and automatically exchange that information with other jurisdictions on an annual basis. It sets out the financial account information to be exchanged, the financial institutions required to report, the different types of accounts and taxpayers covered, as well as common due diligence procedures to be followed by financial institutions.

The Standard consists of the following four key parts: 

- A model Competent Authority Agreement (CAA), providing the international legal framework for the automatic exchange of CRS information;

- The Common Reporting Standard;

- The Commentaries on the CAA and the CRS; and 

- The CRS XML Schema User Guide"

 

Aggregated data hmmmh? Look at the Schema...

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[sqwakvfr]

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

Why would you be (already) using such an expensive transfer method (poor exchange rates + atm costs)?

Why?  Monthly ATM fees have been $10 to $15 dollars a month(reimbursed by the bank)..  Exchanges rates have been ok.  Also, probably going back to the US on a permanent basis next year.  I understand every government in the world needs to generate more revenue but this attempt by the Thai Government appears to have caused more confusion.  The US Government is not alone in trying to generate more revenue:  Anyone remember the reporting of $600 bank transactions that was announced by the esteemed Janet Yellen?  

Edited November 26, 2023 by sqwakvfr

[sqwakvfr]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Re: 2. US Social Security is exempt by treaty.

Ok.  Then those with SS payments  direct deposited into a Thai Bank are in the clear.  But what about someone who has a pension that is direct deposited into a Thai Bank Account?  My pension from California can only be deposited into a US Bank Account.  Maybe this is a good thing? 

[Mike Lister]

30 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Nonsense.

 

"The Common Reporting Standard (CRS), developed in response to the G20 request and approved by the OECD Council on 15 July 2014, calls on jurisdictions to obtain information from their financial institutions and automatically exchange that information with other jurisdictions on an annual basis. It sets out the financial account information to be exchanged, the financial institutions required to report, the different types of accounts and taxpayers covered, as well as common due diligence procedures to be followed by financial institutions.

The Standard consists of the following four key parts: 

- A model Competent Authority Agreement (CAA), providing the international legal framework for the automatic exchange of CRS information;

- The Common Reporting Standard;

- The Commentaries on the CAA and the CRS; and 

- The CRS XML Schema User Guide"

 

Aggregated data hmmmh? Look at the Schema...

 

 

Paging CRS expert poster @stat

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The UK State pension is not exempt from tax in the UK but at present it does fall within the Personal Allowance hence it is not taxed. But there is no statute that says it cannot be taxed in the future.

But is there a double tax agreement between the UK and Thailand?

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, scorecard said:

But is there a double tax agreement between the UK and Thailand?

Yes, but that doesn't change what I wrote. Only UK government pension is exempt by treaty, aka, civil service pension or similar, not state pension.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, sqwakvfr said:

Ok.  Then those with SS payments  direct deposited into a Thai Bank are in the clear.  But what about someone who has a pension that is direct deposited into a Thai Bank Account?  My pension from California can only be deposited into a US Bank Account.  Maybe this is a good thing? 

I asked already about:

 

- a state pension payment transferred by the paying government direct to a thai bank account,

- where there's a double tax agreement between the 2 governments,

- and where the paying government classifies state pension payments as tax exempt.

 

Answer was Thai Revenue Dept not focused on such payments, the answer was 'not interested is these payments / transfers into Thailand. 

[The Cyclist]

8 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Answer was Thai Revenue Dept not focused on such payments, the answer was 'not interested is these payments / transfers into Thailand. 

 

I think this part of the original announcement is what should concern most people

 

Quote

Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand.

 

Until such times as the Thai Gov / RD say otherwise.

 

To my way of thinking, this says at least 2 things.

 

1. DTA's will be honoured.

 

2. Income over and above that which is stipulated in DTA's will also be exempt if it has already been taxed in the other DTA Country.

[sqwakvfr]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

I asked already about:

 

- a state pension payment transferred by the paying government direct to a thai bank account,

- where there's a double tax agreement between the 2 governments,

- and where the paying government classifies state pension payments as tax exempt.

 

Answer was Thai Revenue Dept not focused on such payments, the answer was 'not interested is these payments / transfers into Thailand. 

My State of California pension is not tax exempt in the US.  Was this reply in writing?  How high in the food chain was this Thai official? I only ask because "TIT". 

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I think this part of the original announcement is what should concern most people

 

 

Until such times as the Thai Gov / RD say otherwise.

 

To my way of thinking, this says at least 2 things.

 

1. DTA's will be honoured.

 

2. Income over and above that which is stipulated in DTA's will also be exempt if it has already been taxed in the other DTA Country.

 

Re point 2 above. I read an article which said that if it's a state pension being transferred broad and in the home / originating country it's tax exempt then the tax exempt status would also be the classification of the  Thai Revenue Dept. on those funds.

[mfd101]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

Answer was Thai Revenue Dept not focused on such payments, the answer was 'not interested is these payments / transfers into Thailand. 

So I can come out from under the bed?

 

(It's been a while, what with the plague and so on!)

[The Cyclist]

9 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

Re point 2 above. I read an article which said that if it's a state pension being transferred broad and in the home / originating country it's tax exempt then the tax exempt status would also be the classification of the  Thai Revenue Dept. on those funds.

 

The UK State Pension is not tax exempt.

 

For most people the UK State Pension falls below the PTA allowance of £12570 and is therefore not taxed.

 

If you have other income / Pension that takes you above the £12570 threshold then it does become taxable.

[Mike Lister]

18 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Paging CRS expert poster @stat

 

18 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Nonsense.

 

"The Common Reporting Standard (CRS), developed in response to the G20 request and approved by the OECD Council on 15 July 2014, calls on jurisdictions to obtain information from their financial institutions and automatically exchange that information with other jurisdictions on an annual basis. It sets out the financial account information to be exchanged, the financial institutions required to report, the different types of accounts and taxpayers covered, as well as common due diligence procedures to be followed by financial institutions.

The Standard consists of the following four key parts: 

- A model Competent Authority Agreement (CAA), providing the international legal framework for the automatic exchange of CRS information;

- The Common Reporting Standard;

- The Commentaries on the CAA and the CRS; and 

- The CRS XML Schema User Guide"

 

Aggregated data hmmmh? Look at the Schema...

 

 

 

I see that poster @stat has not responded. For poster @Ben Zioner benefit: poster stat convinced us in the early days of these discussions on taxation that he was a CRS expert and knew chapter and verse, that is how we became convinced that CRS data was aggregated, If he ever does return, perhaps you can have the debate with him/her/it.

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

 

 

I see that poster @stat has not responded. For poster @Ben Zioner benefit: poster stat convinced us in the early days of these discussions on taxation that he was a CRS expert and knew chapter and verse, that is how we became convinced that CRS data was aggregated, If he ever does return, perhaps you can have the debate with him/her/it.

There is no debate, the XML Schema supports queries down to the level of TIN number, hence individual cases. Anyone with an iota of IT experience can see it. Of course  there will be an implementation delay, which will depend on the state of the legacy IT systems of the various RDs. And the competence of their management and staff. Money can also buy the best implementing partners. I am sure there are developers at IT service providers  who know the CRS Schema inside out, but they  probably  don't speak Thai.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

There is no debate, the XML Schema supports queries down to the level of TIN number, hence individual cases. Anyone with an iota of IT experience can see it.

Poster stat may have a different view on this subject, I don't have a horse in this race, I'll leave it for you guys to debate/discuss/fight or whatever. What I will say however is that I have over 50 years IT experience but I don't think that alone is sufficient to conclude on this issue. I'm OUT!

[Ben Zioner]

19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Poster stat may have a different view on this subject

Sure one may also have views on whether the Golden Gate bridge stands there. But this is Aseannow after all. Yesterday someone tried  to explain to be that the Bible supports Gay marriage.

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Sure one may also have views on whether the Golden Gate bridge stands there. But this is Aseannow after all. Yesterday someone tried  to explain to be that the Bible supports Gay marriage.

An interesting link that supports your version of events rather than stat's:

 

https://www.oecd.org/tax/exchange-of-tax-information/CRS-related-FAQs.pdf

[JimboB4]

On 11/25/2023 at 9:01 AM, WilliamSmits said:

I am optimistic and think retirees will not get taxed on money transfered into Thailand. 

Alternatively, there are lots of ways to get money into Thailand without showing up in my Thai bank account.

(like taking in out of ATM with foreign card, etc. etc)

Just keeping 800.000 in an account is enough for immigration.

They actually can’t tax your foreign income. This is for “expats” people already working here who already are required to pay taxes. Doesn’t apply unless you are a “tax resident”. Some people think that applies to anyone living here more than a year but that’s not true. 

[topt]

33 minutes ago, JimboB4 said:

They actually can’t tax your foreign income. This is for “expats” people already working here who already are required to pay taxes. Doesn’t apply unless you are a “tax resident”. Some people think that applies to anyone living here more than a year but that’s not true. 

You are officially a tax resident in Thailand if you spend 180 days or more per calendar year here. That is 100% true......Doesn't matter if working or not.

 

Talk initially was about taxing what is remitted to Thailand so not necessarily all your foreign income although there have been some more recent noises about doing so since the initial announcement.