Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

They help people understand, it clearly failed.

 

My experience on this forum is that they more often help to confuse, obfuscate and ultimately lead to futile debates about examples that have nothing to do with the actual circumstances discussed. Guess that's right up your alley.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Amnesty have evidence. They collect evidence. What do you think they do with evidence?

 

Again, you treat 'evidence' as if it's a done deal. It is not. Evidence is brought under legal consideration, debated, challenged and so on.

The may submit it to the ICC as supportive evidence for some cases, and it's up to the ICC whether it's accepted and used.

You seem to conflate evidence and verdict.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Well Nick, congrats, that one takes the biscuit, so the Israeli's know the names and addresses of Hamas fighters in Gaza, then they obliterate the whole area but only after a text, email or leaflet drop, when this eventually gets to court I'm sure that will hold up well.

 

I suggest you familiarize yourself with previous investigations. Most started with a whole load of accusations, evidence. hot words and whatnot. When the legal smoke clears, there's much less left on the actual list.

[Jeff the Chef]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I suggest you familiarize yourself with previous investigations. Most started with a whole load of accusations, evidence. hot words and whatnot. When the legal smoke clears, there's much less left on the actual list.

Not interested in any other investigations.

The ICC's Office of the Prosecutor (OTP) opened an official investigation into the situation in Palestine in 2021 after determining that “war crimes have been or are being committed by Palestinian and Israeli actors in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip”

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Not interested in any other investigations.

The ICC's Office of the Prosecutor (OTP) opened an official investigation into the situation in Palestine in 2021 after determining that “war crimes have been or are being committed by Palestinian and Israeli actors in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip”

 

Oh dear....previous investigations and proceedings by the same office, vs. Israel on similar past cases - don't tell me you didn't get that. If you're still not interested, but prefer to dig in and post about an investigation that is (sort of) ongoing, that's up to you.

[Jeff the Chef]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Oh dear....previous investigations and proceedings by the same office, vs. Israel on similar past cases - don't tell me you didn't get that. If you're still not interested, but prefer to dig in and post about an investigation that is (sort of) ongoing, that's up to you.

So the ICC only (sort of) investigate war crimes lol

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

So the ICC only (sort of) investigate war crimes lol

 

No, more like you are only sort of informed on things at hand. Funny how you post links without apparently bothering to read them or try to comprehend their meaning. If the investigation was opened in 2021, and we're in 2024 - what was accomplished to date? And given the replacements at the top, and the current situation in the Gaza Strip - what would that imply with regard to the previous investigation?

 

Sort of as in this is how ICC investigations usually go. Takes years. Then there may or may not be a case to prosecute. The a decision on whether to go ahead and prosecute. Then a whole lot of other proceedings presenting the prosecutions and so on.

 

Again, this is not some secret knowledge, kinda like basics in this context.

[placeholder]

51 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Simplistic analogies are for people who cannot deal with reality and details.

I can see why you'd be for them.

Like likening Hamas to cancer for which the cure is removal?

Edited December 5, 2023 by placeholder

[Danny Australia]

6 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Longer term, there are more issues involved - how Israeli politics would shape up, whether things will heat up in the West Bank  (or Southern Lebanon), how the PA will fare and what things will be like in the Gaza Strip. In an ideal world (again...), there would be some meaningful international sponsored drive toward reaching a permanent agreement. In reality, maybe not in the cards given the political situation within each of the involved parties or even globally.

 

 

It is evident that the cessation of illegal occupation, the status of illegal settlements on occupied territories, the matter of refugees from the 1948 and 1976 wars, and the inevitable establishment of an independent Palestinian state are not prioritized on your agenda or on the agendas of successive Israeli governments.

 

Do you expect the Palestinians to passively accept the occupation or allow Israeli puppets like Abbas/Dahlan to dictate the course of events? It's not surprising that the events of October 7th catch you off guard and you keep dismissing their context.

 

This analysis is notably unrealistic. Without addressing the critical issues mentioned above, Israel is unlikely to experience a day of peace. Relying on arrogance and a false belief in military supremacy only serves to push the prospect of peace further into the distance.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

 

It is evident that the cessation of illegal occupation, the status of illegal settlements on occupied territories, the matter of refugees from the 1948 and 1976 wars, and the inevitable establishment of an independent Palestinian state are not prioritized on your agenda or on the agendas of successive Israeli governments.

 

Do you expect the Palestinians to passively accept the occupation or allow Israeli puppets like Abbas/Dahlan to dictate the course of events? It's not surprising that the events of October 7th catch you off guard and you keep dismissing their context.

 

This analysis is notably unrealistic. Without addressing the critical issues mentioned above, Israel is unlikely to experience a day of peace. Relying on arrogance and a false belief in military supremacy only serves to push the prospect of peace further into the distance.

 

 

What is evident is that you either failed to understand the context in which that part of my comment was posted, or worse, that you did get it but decided to go on with the twist attempt anyhow.

 

This was not about my priorities, but on how I see things panning out. All that bucket list you posted is not something that's going to happen in the near future. Sad as it may be, that's reality - not my choice. Not my agenda, even. There won't be some instant peace process, a deus ex machina agreement.

 

As for your bold words, and hot air - you do not actually offer any realistic analysis of what may happen. You just do the mud slinging bit without adding much to the discussion.

 

Lame as he might be, Abbas is currently the go to guy - not because he's anyone's favorite choice, but because the options are limited. As for Palestinian 'not accepting', or 'not allowing' - I don't know what you base that on. He's not popular, but not quite popular uprising material either. Dahlan is despised by many (especially among the wannabe Abbas successors), but he's got good connections in the Gaza Strip, and can talk with Hamas - again, not a good choice as such, but one which comes up every now and then.

 

You can go on with your dire predictions, but expecting that all will be solved just post war is about as unrealistic as it gets. Not with the current leadership on either side. Not with the wounds still fresh.

 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

No, more like you are only sort of informed on things at hand. Funny how you post links without apparently bothering to read them or try to comprehend their meaning. If the investigation was opened in 2021, and we're in 2024 - what was accomplished to date? And given the replacements at the top, and the current situation in the Gaza Strip - what would that imply with regard to the previous investigation?

 

Sort of as in this is how ICC investigations usually go. Takes years. Then there may or may not be a case to prosecute. The a decision on whether to go ahead and prosecute. Then a whole lot of other proceedings presenting the prosecutions and so on.

 

Again, this is not some secret knowledge, kinda like basics in this context.

Blathering as usual, at least there is an investigation, all to play for, I'm well aware it could take years.

[rabas]

3 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Well Nick, congrats, that one takes the biscuit, so the Israeli's know the names and addresses of Hamas fighters in Gaza, then they obliterate the whole area but only after a text, email or leaflet drop, when this eventually gets to court I'm sure that will hold up well.

 

They do track important Hamas operatives in Gaza judging by their rate of elimination. They got another today, Nizar Awadallah, secretary of Hamas General Council. He was caught in an explosion at a hiding place and died after reaching hospital.  A video at the hospital shows his security people mercilessly beating the daylights out of anyone trying to take pictures. Nice folks. Now they are saying other of Hamas officials died with him.

 

Do I get a biscuit?

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, rabas said:

 

They do track important Hamas operatives in Gaza judging by their rate of elimination. They got another today, Nizar Awadallah, secretary of Hamas General Council. He was caught in an explosion at a hiding place and died after reaching hospital.  A video at the hospital shows his security people mercilessly beating the daylights out of anyone trying to take pictures. Nice folks. Now they are saying other of Hamas officials died with him.

 

Do I get a biscuit?

 

It seems they got about 15,000 of the names wrong.

[rabas]

4 hours ago, ozimoron said:

It seems they got about 15,000 of the names wrong.

Perhaps Hamas should not be using all those people to hide behind, no? 

 

Hamas may be the worst case of death by human shield the world has ever seen.  

[Bkk Brian]

5 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

It seems they got about 15,000 of the names wrong.

Hamas supplied figures which includes the 5,000 or more Hamas terrorists killed so far.

[Bkk Brian]

 

Israel Says it Killed 5,000 Fighters in Gaza War on Hamas

Israeli forces have killed more then 5,000 enemy combatants and at least 10,000 civilians so far in its war with Hamas in Gaza, a senior Israeli defense official said Monday.

The latest assessment from Israel of the total toll is roughly in line with the number of deaths in Gaza reported by the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry, which has said more than 15,200 people have died since Israel launched a military campaign in Gaza after Hamas's Oct. 7 attack on Israel. The ministry has not said how many of the dead are fighters.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-says-it-killed-5000-fighters-gaza-war-hamas-1849250

 

The IDF has been operating in Hamas strongholds in the areas of Jabaliya, Shuja'iyya and Khan Yunis, destroying terrorist infrastructure and eliminating Hamas terrorists. 

In addition, our forces gained control of central Hamas positions in Jabaliya over the past day, as well as located weapons and terrorist infrastructure, some of which was found in civilian buildings, including a school.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/5/2023 at 12:57 PM, Danderman123 said:

After Hamas is gone, they will be forgetten, like Al Qaida.

 

 

Organizations come and go. As long as the israelis oppress Palestinians there will be something to resist them, whatever it is called, whether inside or outside Palestine.

Even the israelis can't kill every Palestinian on the planet, as many live outside Palestine where the israelis can't kill them, and as long as a single Palestinian lives there will be a threat to israelis. Welcome to endless fear, endless war.

 

To use an historical reference, the English couldn't suppress the Irish resistance for 600 years, so is that what the israelis want, 600 years of conflict?

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, Danny Australia said:

This analysis is notably unrealistic. Without addressing the critical issues mentioned above, Israel is unlikely to experience a day of peace. Relying on arrogance and a false belief in military supremacy only serves to push the prospect of peace further into the distance.

Correct. Israel is committing itself to endless conflict, endless fear of attack, endless brutalisation of it's young people made to oppress the legal owners of the land they are being forced off.

[thaibeachlovers]

OMG, America is starting to actually do something about settler violence. As heard on Al Jazeera sanctions have been put on some of them. Now the Americans only have to do something about the <deleted>s bombing children to bits in their homes.

 

 

https://www.axios.com/2023/12/05/us-israeli-settler-west-bank-visa-ban-plan

[Wobblybob]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Correct. Israel is committing itself to endless conflict, endless fear of attack, endless brutalisation of it's young people made to oppress the legal owners of the land they are being forced off.

You live in a world that only you can possibly understand and if the Palestinians stopped firing rockets at Israeli civilian they themselves might become civilised and get on better with their neighbours, it is not rocket science, so stop trying to make a drama, you're not Shakespeare!

[Danderman123]

42 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Organizations come and go. As long as the israelis oppress Palestinians there will be something to resist them, whatever it is called, whether inside or outside Palestine.

Even the israelis can't kill every Palestinian on the planet, as many live outside Palestine where the israelis can't kill them, and as long as a single Palestinian lives there will be a threat to israelis. Welcome to endless fear, endless war.

 

To use an historical reference, the English couldn't suppress the Irish resistance for 600 years, so is that what the israelis want, 600 years of conflict?

You are making my point for me, thank you.

 

Of course, oppressed people have the right to protest, boycott, whatever. The problem comes with using terrorism as a weapon. 

 

Concerning your Irish example, when was the last time that the IRA committed terrorism?

 

 

After Hamas is eliminated, Gazans will have the equivalent of the Palestinian Authority governing them, and life can return to normal in Gaza. If not, Gazans will continue to suffer.

[Danderman123]

28 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

You live in a world that only you can possibly understand and if the Palestinians stopped firing rockets at Israeli civilian they themselves might become civilised and get on better with their neighbours, it is not rocket science, so stop trying to make a drama, you're not Shakespeare!

If you were an Israeli citizen and your family were killed by a rocket from Gaza, you would wonder why Gazans in the vicinity of the rocket allowed it to be fired.

[Wobblybob]

Just now, Danderman123 said:

If you were an Israeli citizen and your family were killed by a rocket from Gaza, you would wonder why Gazans in the vicinity of the rocket allowed it to be fired.

They (Palestinians) are brainwashed into this ideology of murdering Israelis before they leave the mothers womb, the young play games and pretend they are stabbing Israelis, then as they grow older they progress to playing with AK47s. They go to summer camps where they train to be terrorists and again train to hate and kill Israelis. How one can deprogram these brainwashed zombies is going to be difficult, if not impossible, the Israelis have a long hard slog ahead of them. 🥴

[Morch]

9 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Blathering as usual, at least there is an investigation, all to play for, I'm well aware it could take years.

 

Amusing. When it fits, you get 'outraged' over the UN statements being effectively meaningless, untimely and so on. When it's demonstrated this applies to the investigation as well, you choose to ignore it.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

It seems they got about 15,000 of the names wrong.

 

It seems you're back with your careless usage of facts and applied misinformation.

 

The casualty figures on offer by the Hamas controlled Ministry of Health in the Gaza Strip do not differentiate between civilians and combatants. This lumping together fits well with Hamas agenda of inflating casualty reports for propaganda purposes. When the smoke clears they do admit to their own casualties (if claiming lower figures than Israel and the international community assess). It is not clear, for example, whether all them Hamas men killed in Israel following the 7/10 attack are included in the list.

 

The short version - you are wrong.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Morch

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Hamas supplied figures which includes the 5,000 or more Hamas terrorists killed so far.

 

That makes the other 10,000 not actually a war crime?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Organizations come and go. As long as the israelis oppress Palestinians there will be something to resist them, whatever it is called, whether inside or outside Palestine.

Even the israelis can't kill every Palestinian on the planet, as many live outside Palestine where the israelis can't kill them, and as long as a single Palestinian lives there will be a threat to israelis. Welcome to endless fear, endless war.

 

To use an historical reference, the English couldn't suppress the Irish resistance for 600 years, so is that what the israelis want, 600 years of conflict?

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

What your 'historical' analysis misses are two things:

 

(a) The elimination of a violent terrorist outfit carries immediate benefits with regard to short/medium-term security.

(b) In the long run, resistance movements who survive such a fate tend to change their stance, opting for a more 'political' way.

 

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Correct. Israel is committing itself to endless conflict, endless fear of attack, endless brutalisation of it's young people made to oppress the legal owners of the land they are being forced off.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

At the same time, ongoing violent actions and a rejectionist stance by the Palestinians led to their predicament being what it is. The only times the Palestinians managed to (somewhat) better their situation is when they opted for non-violence, negotiations and dropping the rejectionist attitude.

 

The same elements that you describe - fear of attack, endless brutalization of youth and so on, applies tenfold to the Palestinians. Somehow you do not seem too concerned about that.

 

As for 'legal owners of the land' etc. - yeah, I think it's already agreed you issue is with Israel's very existence, thanks for making it clear again.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

What your 'historical' analysis misses are two things:

 

(a) The elimination of a violent terrorist outfit carries immediate benefits with regard to short/medium-term security.

(b) In the long run, resistance movements who survive such a fate tend to change their stance, opting for a more 'political' way.

 

a) Surely, nobody is foolish enough to think that Israel has reduced the number of Hamas terrorists? They have increased it dramatically.

 

b) Garbage.

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

That makes the other 10,000 not actually a war crime?

Am I an ICC prosecutor investigating. You need evidence from specific incidents.