Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Rimmer]

A social media post from an unapproved source has been removed also the reply to it

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[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

I'm saying that support for Hamas in Gaza is 100%. Any other conclusion would be irrational. My point was, that may not have been the case before October 7th but it surely is now.

 

You can say a whole lot of things. You often do. That doesn't mean that they are factual, true, correct or reasonable.

That you decide 100% support and anything but being 'irrational' does not rely on anything, and is, well...irrational.

Surely now is what you say - not what Gazans are saying.

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You can say a whole lot of things. You often do. That doesn't mean that they are factual, true, correct or reasonable.

That you decide 100% support and anything but being 'irrational' does not rely on anything, and is, well...irrational.

Surely now is what you say - not what Gazans are saying.

 

Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hamas

 

The Israeli prime minister followed a decades-old divide-and-rule strategy that fuels endless war.

 

Mass civilian punishment has not convinced Gaza’s residents to stop supporting Hamas. To the contrary, it has only heightened resentment among Palestinians. In fact, the group may be stronger now than it was before.

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by ozimoron

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hamas

 

The Israeli prime minister followed a decades-old divide-and-rule strategy that fuels endless war.

 

Mass civilian punishment has not convinced Gaza’s residents to stop supporting Hamas. To the contrary, it has only heightened resentment among Palestinians. In fact, the group may be stronger now than it was before.

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/

 

 

 

 

And....?

How does this demonstrate or prove your 100% support assertion?

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And....?

How does this demonstrate or prove your 100% support assertion?

 

It doesn't have to prove anything. The link supports my assertion that Israel have increased the Hamas numbers and have apparently been doing it for years. What does your link prove... Oh wait, you didn't provide one.

Edited December 12, 2023 by ozimoron

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Seems like you're forever trying to justify the Hamas 7/10 attack.

No he isn't. 

 

[Morch]

49 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

It doesn't have to prove anything. The link supports my assertion that Israel have increased the Hamas numbers and have apparently been doing it for years. What does your link prove... Oh wait, you didn't provide one.

 

You made a strong claim about 100% support. You do not provide anything that shows this. You seem content to assert this as fact based on what you imagine how things should be.

 

I did not make the claim, hence I do not need to provide any links. I question your claim, based on past figures, history and common sense. I don't think that are actually 100% support places, unless one counts North Korea. People have different opinions, links to Gazan/Palestinian voices against Hamas posted on this topic and others.

 

 

[metisdead]

Another social media post from an unapproved source contravening our Community Standards has been removed. 

[ozimoron]

39 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You made a strong claim about 100% support. You do not provide anything that shows this. You seem content to assert this as fact based on what you imagine how things should be.

 

I did not make the claim, hence I do not need to provide any links. I question your claim, based on past figures, history and common sense. I don't think that are actually 100% support places, unless one counts North Korea. People have different opinions, links to Gazan/Palestinian voices against Hamas posted on this topic and others.

 

It was clearly my opinion and that is based solidly on logic. The link supported this. I asked for a link asserting that even a single Gazan did not support Hamas right now. Crickets.

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

It was clearly my opinion and that is based solidly on logic. The link supported this. I asked for a link asserting that even a single Gazan did not support Hamas right now. Crickets.

 

It was stated as fact, which is the norm for you posts. You do not tend to qualify, but favor statements. You opinion is not based on anything, let alone logic. Your link does not support your strong claim either. There are no countries with 100% support, most regimes that claim that are dictatorships of the worst kinds.

 

There have been links to clips showing Palestinians tin he Gaza Strip criticizing Hamas. This was already pointed out. If you can't be bothered reading the topic, at least don't make bogus assertion that there were no such.

 

What your comments do show is the low regard in which you hold Palestinians. As if they are some easy to control drones, with no mind of their own. Do you really think none of them are upset with Hamas for bringing about their current circumstances? Or for hiding in the safety of tunnels paid from monies rightly belonging to the people, but barring them out? Are they ok with Hamas robbing UN supplies meant for civilians? Or maybe you imagine they have no issues with Hamas leadership living in luxury at Qatar, while preaching them on 'needed sacrifices'.

 

Again, you don't seem to understand how discussions work.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

It was stated as fact, which is the norm for you posts. You do not tend to qualify, but favor statements. You opinion is not based on anything, let alone logic. Your link does not support your strong claim either. There are no countries with 100% support, most regimes that claim that are dictatorships of the worst kinds.

 

There have been links to clips showing Palestinians tin he Gaza Strip criticizing Hamas. This was already pointed out. If you can't be bothered reading the topic, at least don't make bogus assertion that there were no such.

 

What your comments do show is the low regard in which you hold Palestinians. As if they are some easy to control drones, with no mind of their own. Do you really think none of them are upset with Hamas for bringing about their current circumstances? Or for hiding in the safety of tunnels paid from monies rightly belonging to the people, but barring them out? Are they ok with Hamas robbing UN supplies meant for civilians? Or maybe you imagine they have no issues with Hamas leadership living in luxury at Qatar, while preaching them on 'needed sacrifices'.

 

Again, you don't seem to understand how discussions work.

 

Of course it was. I confess that I went around and counted every Gazan and asked them who they supported.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Of course it was. I confess that I went around and counted every Gazan and asked them who they supported.

 

More like you cannot back up what you posted, so you go for some nonsense comment.

 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Morch said:

 

More like you cannot back up what you posted, so you go for some nonsense comment.

 

 

I provided a link which very much supported my point. You provided nothing. You are not in a position to accuse me of not supporting my opinions.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

I provided a link which very much supported my point. You provided nothing. You are not in a position to accuse me of not supporting my opinions.

 

You link did not support the 100% support claim. It cannot do that because there is no 100% support for Hamas.

Links to clips in which Gazans criticize Hamas have been posted on this topic and others.

I do not refer to my opinions, but to facts and reality.

I am not in a position where I need to supply links (they have already been posted, and the underlying claim being trivial).

 

[ozimoron]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You link did not support the 100% support claim. It cannot do that because there is no 100% support for Hamas.

Links to clips in which Gazans criticize Hamas have been posted on this topic and others.

I do not refer to my opinions, but to facts and reality.

I am not in a position where I need to supply links (they have already been posted, and the underlying claim being trivial).

 

 

Are you asserting that links have been provided that less than 100% of Gazans support Hamas since the Israeli bombings?

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Are you asserting that links have been provided that less than 100% of Gazans support Hamas since the Israeli bombings?

 

Links have been provided showing Gazans criticizing Hamas for bringing this calamity upon them, for stealing supplies, for living in luxury and safety while ordinary Gazans are dying. Obviously they were taken after the war started, many of them recent, as the war reached the south side of the Gaza Strip and conditions worsen.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Links have been provided showing Gazans criticizing Hamas for bringing this calamity upon them, for stealing supplies, for living in luxury and safety while ordinary Gazans are dying. Obviously they were taken after the war started, many of them recent, as the war reached the south side of the Gaza Strip and conditions worsen.

 

Links other than deleted social platform links and since Israel started bombing Gaza?

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Links other than deleted social platform links and since Israel started bombing Gaza?

 

Yawn.

Read the topic.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Yawn.

Read the topic.

 

A yes or no would suffice. I didn't ask you to repost the link. I'm calling BS on your claim.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

A yes or no would suffice. I didn't ask you to repost the link. I'm calling BS on your claim.

 

Of course they are. Unlike you I don't make up stuff.

There's one posted just on the previous page. You could have looked it up by now, instead of trolling.

Others posted as well, on this topic and others. Read the topic.

 

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Of course they are. Unlike you I don't make up stuff.

There's one posted just on the previous page. You could have looked it up by now, instead of trolling.

Others posted as well, on this topic and others. Read the topic.

 

 

Now you're just lying. There is no credible link to evidence on that page that Hamas is not currently supported by all Gazans. Social media links from non credible actors are not evidence. You should know the rules by now. I called you out and you failed to step up.

Edited December 12, 2023 by ozimoron

[ozimoron]

Civilians make up 61% of Gaza deaths from airstrikes, Israeli study finds

 

Civilian proportion of deaths is higher than the average in all world conflicts in 20th century, data suggests

 

The aerial bombing campaign by Israel in Gaza is the most indiscriminate in terms of civilian casualties in recent years, a study published by an Israeli newspaper has found.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/09/civilian-toll-israeli-airstrikes-gaza-unprecedented-killing-study

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Civilians make up 61% of Gaza deaths from airstrikes, Israeli study finds

 

Civilian proportion of deaths is higher than the average in all world conflicts in 20th century, data suggests

 

The aerial bombing campaign by Israel in Gaza is the most indiscriminate in terms of civilian casualties in recent years, a study published by an Israeli newspaper has found.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/09/civilian-toll-israeli-airstrikes-gaza-unprecedented-killing-study

 

 

The Guardian report is essentially a rough version of the an article which appeared on Israeli media (in the Haaretz). The link included in the Guardian report is leads to Haaretz's English edition, with the article being behind a paywall (same for the Hebrew version). Given that the Guardian report is low on details, it's hard to judge how results were arrived at etc. The original article (in Hebrew) is being taken apart and crucified left and right on the readers' comments section. Points raised as to methodology, figures, calculations and whatnot. Such criticism (some of it pretty basic stuff) is not reflected in the Guardian's account. 

 

I will point out some things that stick out even from the Guardian's short-version offering

 

Quote

 

The ratio is significantly higher than the average civilian toll in all the conflicts around the world during the 20th century, in which civilians accounted for about half the dead, according to Levy.

 

 

The comparison should be vs. similar military operations, not military conflicts in general. Not all battles and wars are conducted in dense urban settings and against an insurgent/terrorist enemy. I think that such a comparison would be more relevant. Further, if the original article references only airstrikes, then the general comparison is all the more strained.

 

When it comes to the bit referencing past instances of fighting between Hamas and Israel, it is not clear what data is being used (there are differences in casualty figures version). Considering the Hamas currently does not release detailed casualty reports, and the IDF figures are rough assessments, maybe premature to conclude things decisively.

 

Then there's them failed rocket launches. Estimated at about 10% of the total (if memory serves, this was discussed in detail in context of the hospital incident) - but how many casualties? For that single incident, Hamas claimed 500 (!) casualties alone. Are they numbered among those killed by Israel as well? Who knows. Given there were thousands of rockets launched, 10% would be in the hundreds. 

 

IMO the ratio is probably correct, more or less - 2:1 civilians to combatants, including ground operations. I don't think that a direct comparison to similar campaigns, battles and wars would make it stand out in the manner presented, though.

 

Here's a link to an article previously linked:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-2-civilian-deaths-for-every-1-hamas-fighter-killed-in-gaza/

 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

The Guardian report is essentially a rough version of the an article which appeared on Israeli media (in the Haaretz). The link included in the Guardian report is leads to Haaretz's English edition, with the article being behind a paywall (same for the Hebrew version). Given that the Guardian report is low on details, it's hard to judge how results were arrived at etc. The original article (in Hebrew) is being taken apart and crucified left and right on the readers' comments section. Points raised as to methodology, figures, calculations and whatnot. Such criticism (some of it pretty basic stuff) is not reflected in the Guardian's account. 

 

I will point out some things that stick out even from the Guardian's short-version offering

 

 

The comparison should be vs. similar military operations, not military conflicts in general. Not all battles and wars are conducted in dense urban settings and against an insurgent/terrorist enemy. I think that such a comparison would be more relevant. Further, if the original article references only airstrikes, then the general comparison is all the more strained.

 

When it comes to the bit referencing past instances of fighting between Hamas and Israel, it is not clear what data is being used (there are differences in casualty figures version). Considering the Hamas currently does not release detailed casualty reports, and the IDF figures are rough assessments, maybe premature to conclude things decisively.

 

Then there's them failed rocket launches. Estimated at about 10% of the total (if memory serves, this was discussed in detail in context of the hospital incident) - but how many casualties? For that single incident, Hamas claimed 500 (!) casualties alone. Are they numbered among those killed by Israel as well? Who knows. Given there were thousands of rockets launched, 10% would be in the hundreds. 

 

IMO the ratio is probably correct, more or less - 2:1 civilians to combatants, including ground operations. I don't think that a direct comparison to similar campaigns, battles and wars would make it stand out in the manner presented, though.

 

Here's a link to an article previously linked:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-2-civilian-deaths-for-every-1-hamas-fighter-killed-in-gaza/

 

 

1. Who would have thought that Hebrew speakers would attack the methodology of a report that was adverse to their world view?

 

2. Criticising the report for not cherry picking comparisons which reduce the ratio does nothing to mitigate a war crime.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

1. Who would have thought that Hebrew speakers would attack the methodology of a report that was adverse to their world view?

 

2. Criticising the report for not cherry picking comparisons which reduce the ratio does nothing to mitigate a war crime.

 

This appeared in the Haaretz. It's a left (sometimes hard left) leaning publication, the comments section it mostly sympathetic, often reflecting a more radical than presented in columns and reports. I think this is another example of you commenting on things you're not versed in (like the attempt to lump all Gazans as sharing the same position). This what makes the commentary stand out, it's not so much an all out support for the IDF and the government, but rather dissatisfaction with the quality of the article.

 

The criticism is about comparing apples and orange. Nothing to do with cherry picking. And such comparisons would not 'reduce' the ratio, but put it context. As for you declaring 'war crimes' - I think we've been over that nonsense on your last visit (or the one before) to these topics.

 

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

This appeared in the Haaretz. It's a left (sometimes hard left) leaning publication, the comments section it mostly sympathetic, often reflecting a more radical than presented in columns and reports. I think this is another example of you commenting on things you're not versed in (like the attempt to lump all Gazans as sharing the same position). This what makes the commentary stand out, it's not so much an all out support for the IDF and the government, but rather dissatisfaction with the quality of the article.

 

The criticism is about comparing apples and orange. Nothing to do with cherry picking. And such comparisons would not 'reduce' the ratio, but put it context. As for you declaring 'war crimes' - I think we've been over that nonsense on your last visit (or the one before) to these topics.

 

 

 

I think it's completely logical to assume that 100% of Gazans support Hamas at this point and every able bodied person actively assists or fights for them. I believe it's absurd to propose that's not the case. By the way, you have yet to provide any credible link to disprove my assertion and I would suggest that a single old crazy doesn't make your point.

[Bkk Brian]

4 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

I think it's completely logical to assume that 100% of Gazans support Hamas at this point and every able bodied person actively assists or fights for them. I believe it's absurd to propose that's not the case. By the way, you have yet to provide any credible link to disprove my assertion and I would suggest that a single old crazy doesn't make your point.

 

There you go again, I've already responded with proof that is not the case and rather than spoon feeding you with links also told you that recent polls are in this topic. Which you have obviously not bothered to read otherwise you would not still be assuming 100% of Gazans support Hamas. "A mass of 63.6% said that they supported the attack “extremely” or to a “somewhat” extent. A further 14.4% answered that they did not oppose or support the attack."

 

November 14 poll by the Arab World for Research and Development (link to source poll in article).

 

When asked the leading question “How much do you support the military operation carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7?” Palestinian responses showed support for the attack.

 

Palestinians living in the West Bank overwhelmingly answered that they supported the attack to either an extreme or “somewhat” extent (83.1%.) Only 6.9% answered that they were “extremely” or “somewhat” against the attack, and 8.4% expressed that they had no opinion either way.

Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip show a little less consensus but the overall majority supported the attack. A mass of 63.6% said that they supported the attack “extremely” or to a “somewhat” extent. A further 14.4% answered that they did not oppose or support the attack. Showing a greater rift than that of the West Bank, 20.9% of Palestinians living in Gaza opposed the attack to some degree. 

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791

 

[CharlieH]

Reported misleading post removed.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, Neeranam said:

No he isn't. 

 

Thanks, but I'll keep supporting the Palestinians as long as the illegal israeli occupation, illegal collective punishment, oppression and the war crimes are being carried out against Gaza and the West Bank.

[Morch]

7 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

I think it's completely logical to assume that 100% of Gazans support Hamas at this point and every able bodied person actively assists or fights for them. I believe it's absurd to propose that's not the case. By the way, you have yet to provide any credible link to disprove my assertion and I would suggest that a single old crazy doesn't make your point.

 

You are wrong, and have provided neither actual support for you assertion, nor presented a logical argument, even.

Also, you don't get to decide what's credible or not. Not your job.

As said, other links appear on this topic and others. Read the topic.