Why Republicans are souring on Ukraine

[CharlieH]

 

 

James Cohen, a longtime Republican voter from Virginia Beach, said support for Ukraine has remained pretty strong in his GOP circles. But he’s grown increasingly concerned as the party splinters over supporting Ukraine in its war against Russia.

 

Cohen, 60, blames the worrying trend on divisive politics and general anger with President Biden less than a year out from the 2024 election.

“Biden is seen as incompetent and corrupt. So unfortunately, the way politics works, it’s guilt by association,” he said. “Where they stand on funding, whether it’s Ukraine or anything else, it’s very polarized.”

But Cohen, who has extended relatives in Ukraine, said his party needs to understand that failing to stop Russia now would be “strategic suicide” and potentially widen the conflict in Europe.

“Right now, we’ve got a situation where America has to decide: Do we want to support an ally?” he asked. “Or do we want to wait until we have World War III, and we’ve got to send our kids over there?”

On the other side of the growing GOP divide over Ukraine is Dave Culpepper, a lifelong Republican from Chesapeake, Va. He said the U.S. is “throwing money” at a war while deeply in debt and with “no clear objective” to end the conflict.

“The fact that it’s gone on as long as it has, tells me that there’s more going on here,” he said. “And we taxpayers are footing the bill for it. That seems to me the only objective — to spend money.”

 

FULL STORY

 

[Tug]

In my humble opinion it’s fear of trump saying something and fear of their voting base after big mouth spreads his poison they know it’s wrong to do Putin’s bidding but sadly in effect that’s exactly what they through their fear of trump are doing cowards!

Edited November 30, 2023 by Tug

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, CharlieH said:

 

 

James Cohen, a longtime Republican voter from Virginia Beach, said support for Ukraine has remained pretty strong in his GOP circles. But he’s grown increasingly concerned as the party splinters over supporting Ukraine in its war against Russia.

 

Cohen, 60, blames the worrying trend on divisive politics and general anger with President Biden less than a year out from the 2024 election.

“Biden is seen as incompetent and corrupt. So unfortunately, the way politics works, it’s guilt by association,” he said. “Where they stand on funding, whether it’s Ukraine or anything else, it’s very polarized.”

But Cohen, who has extended relatives in Ukraine, said his party needs to understand that failing to stop Russia now would be “strategic suicide” and potentially widen the conflict in Europe.

“Right now, we’ve got a situation where America has to decide: Do we want to support an ally?” he asked. “Or do we want to wait until we have World War III, and we’ve got to send our kids over there?”

On the other side of the growing GOP divide over Ukraine is Dave Culpepper, a lifelong Republican from Chesapeake, Va. He said the U.S. is “throwing money” at a war while deeply in debt and with “no clear objective” to end the conflict.

“The fact that it’s gone on as long as it has, tells me that there’s more going on here,” he said. “And we taxpayers are footing the bill for it. That seems to me the only objective — to spend money.”

 

FULL STORY

 

B.S. from James Cohen. Before Biden even took office, Putin was very popular among the Republicans' religious base because of the effort he has been devoting to criminalizing homosexuality. They consider him to be a champion of the culture wars.

Edited November 30, 2023 by placeholder

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Hmm... what could the reason be?  Nothing particular comes to mind, except perhaps:

 

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, CharlieH said:

On the other side of the growing GOP divide over Ukraine is Dave Culpepper, a lifelong Republican from Chesapeake, Va. He said the U.S. is “throwing money” at a war while deeply in debt and with “no clear objective” to end the conflict.

“The fact that it’s gone on as long as it has, tells me that there’s more going on here,” he said. “And we taxpayers are footing the bill for it. That seems to me the only objective — to spend money.”

He nailed it. Follow the money.

 

It took the GOP a while to wise up, but the light bulb has finally illuminated. If they can take the senate and the W H, I expect the end of the Ukraine conflict to follow soon after.

[KhunLA]

Not just the Reps, as last budget bill passed, had little if any for UA, and control of the House (R-

222 seats, 50.6%

/ D-213 seats, 47.8% is fairly split, as is the

Senate.

 

 

New budget passed the Senate for 2024, and nothing for UA, I don't think, and again, it's 51/49 Dem/Rep Senate.

 

There really isn't a 2 party system, with few exceptions, they are there to screw & divide tax payers.

Edited November 30, 2023 by KhunLA

[Jingthing]

56 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

He nailed it. Follow the money.

 

It took the GOP a while to wise up, but the light bulb has finally illuminated. If they can take the senate and the W H, I expect the end of the Ukraine conflict to follow soon after.

I call B.S.

Most of the aid money for Ukraine goes back to the US. 

[LosLobo]

MAGA Mike has been accepting Russian money.....

Mary Trump calls out 'MAGA Mike Johnson' for alleged Russian ties.

'Mother Russia's infiltration of U.S. politics by funneling money into a slate of MAGA-entrenched Congressmen'.

 

'Our eyes are open': Mary Trump calls out 'MAGA Mike Johnson' for alleged Russian ties (msn.com)

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by LosLobo

[mikebike]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

He nailed it. Follow the money.

 

It took the GOP a while to wise up, but the light bulb has finally illuminated. If they can take the senate and the W H, I expect the end of the Ukraine conflict to follow soon after.

Curious as to what you envision that "end" would look like. ie: terms of settlement... 

[mikebike]

8 hours ago, CharlieH said:

That seems to me the only objective — to spend money

Really? The ONLY objective? Nothing whatsoever to do with helping to stop an egregious land grab? Hmmmm... 

[beautifulthailand99]

26 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Curious as to what you envision that "end" would look like. ie: terms of settlement... 

You don't need to ask the Pentagon's think tank the Rand Corporation, helpfully snuck out a report very quietly back in the spring. Basically, the US will force Ukraine to peace negotiations assuming Russia actually wants them with the threat of ending aid and arms.

 

President Biden has said that this war will end at the negotiating table.[74] But the administration has not yet made any moves to push the parties toward talks. Although it is far from certain that a change in U.S. policy can spark negotiations, adopting one or more of the policies described in this Perspective could make talks more likely. We identify reasons why Russia and Ukraine may have mutual optimism about war and pessimism about peace. The literature on war termination suggests that such perceptions can lead to protracted conflict. Therefore, we highlight four options the United States has for shifting these dynamics: clarifying its plans for future support to Ukraine, making commitments to Ukraine's security, issuing assurances regarding the country's neutrality, and setting conditions for sanctions relief for Russia.

 

A dramatic, overnight shift in U.S. policy is politically impossible—both domestically and with allies—and would be unwise in any case. But developing these instruments now and socializing them with Ukraine and with U.S. allies might help catalyze the eventual start of a process that could bring this war to a negotiated end in a time frame that would serve U.S. interests. The alternative is a long war that poses major challenges for the United States, Ukraine, and the rest of the world.

 

https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PEA2510-1.html

[mikebike]

1 hour ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

You don't need to ask the Pentagon's think tank the Rand Corporation, helpfully snuck out a report very quietly back in the spring. Basically, the US will force Ukraine to peace negotiations assuming Russia actually wants them with the threat of ending aid and arms.

 

President Biden has said that this war will end at the negotiating table.[74] But the administration has not yet made any moves to push the parties toward talks. Although it is far from certain that a change in U.S. policy can spark negotiations, adopting one or more of the policies described in this Perspective could make talks more likely. We identify reasons why Russia and Ukraine may have mutual optimism about war and pessimism about peace. The literature on war termination suggests that such perceptions can lead to protracted conflict. Therefore, we highlight four options the United States has for shifting these dynamics: clarifying its plans for future support to Ukraine, making commitments to Ukraine's security, issuing assurances regarding the country's neutrality, and setting conditions for sanctions relief for Russia.

 

A dramatic, overnight shift in U.S. policy is politically impossible—both domestically and with allies—and would be unwise in any case. But developing these instruments now and socializing them with Ukraine and with U.S. allies might help catalyze the eventual start of a process that could bring this war to a negotiated end in a time frame that would serve U.S. interests. The alternative is a long war that poses major challenges for the United States, Ukraine, and the rest of the world.

 

https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PEA2510-1.html

Which say exactly ZERO about terms of settlement. 

[beautifulthailand99]

11 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Which say exactly ZERO about terms of settlement. 

It talks about easing sanctions on Russia, accepting that Ukraine will need to give up territory and withholding aid could force Ukraine's hand. It also quite rightly points out that US interests are different from Ukaraine's interests and has a lot of soft soap to ameliorate that message but the days of an open chequebook (not that there ever was) have come to an end. Meloni's off-the-cuff remarks to the Russian pranksters also revealed that the EU want to end this sooner rather than later. It is Zelenskiy who is holding out and cracks are beginning to show between him and his army chief Zaluzhny. US silent coup probaly incoming sometime before the spring. The US is your friend until they are not.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/04/world/europe/zelensky-rebuke-general-zaluzhny.html

 

The office of President Volodymyr Zelensky on Saturday chastised Ukraine’s top military commander for publicly declaring the war at a stalemate, suggesting the comments would help the Russian invasion. It was a striking public rebuke that signaled an emerging rift between the military and civilian leadership at an already challenging time for Ukraine.

Speaking on national television, a deputy head of the office of the president, Ihor Zhovkva, said Gen. Valery Zaluzhny’s assertion that the fight against Russia was deadlocked “eases the work of the aggressor,” adding that the comments stirred “panic” among Ukraine’s Western allies.

Edited November 30, 2023 by beautifulthailand99

[metisdead]

A post with unsubstantiated information and the replies contravening our Community Standards and the replies have been removed.  Please provide a valid link to the source(s) of information when posting.

[novacova]

11 hours ago, CharlieH said:

But Cohen, who has extended relatives in Ukraine, said his party needs to understand that failing to stop Russia now would be “strategic suicide” and potentially widen the conflict in Europe.

“Right now, we’ve got a situation where America has to decide: Do we want to support an ally?” he asked.

Damned either way 

 

11 hours ago, CharlieH said:

“Or do we want to wait until we have World War III, and we’ve got to send our kids over there?”

By all global empirical observations, it’s inevitable at some point, either this wave or within the next two 

[Tug]

1 hour ago, novacova said:

Damned either way 

 

By all global empirical observations, it’s inevitable at some point, either this wave or within the next two 

Not dammed if we support Ukraine far from it for less that 6% of our defense budget without American blood our brave Ukrainian brothers and sisters have stoped our enemies cold dead in their tracks and furthermore it’s a morally correct war they are being invaded by a looting murdering raping hoard of brutes salva Ukraine 🇺🇦!!!!

[novacova]

3 minutes ago, Tug said:

Not dammed if we support Ukraine far from it for less that 6% of our defense budget without American blood our brave Ukrainian brothers and sisters have stoped our enemies cold dead in their tracks and furthermore it’s a morally correct war they are being invaded by a looting murdering raping hoard of brutes salva Ukraine 🇺🇦!!!!

This war is just one piece of a large work at play, overwhelm by a slow but sure incremental process. Pay attention.

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, novacova said:

This war is just one piece of a large work at play, overwhelm by a slow but sure incremental process. Pay attention.

Sounds like cryptic conspiracy theory gobbledygook.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

A dramatic, overnight shift in U.S. policy is politically impossible—both domestically and with allies—and would be unwise in any case. But developing these instruments now and socializing them with Ukraine and with U.S. allies might help catalyze the eventual start of a process that could bring this war to a negotiated end in a time frame that would serve U.S. interests. The alternative is a long war that poses major challenges for the United States, Ukraine, and the rest of the world.

My 2 bob's worth is that western powers, mainly the US decided to punish Russia by a rapid victory over the invasion, but erred in the assessment that Russia would quickly be sent packing, humiliated. I doubt they anticipated the resilience of the Russians, or appreciated the cost of a drawn out stalemate. Having boxed themselves into a rhetorical corner, it would be too embarrassing to admit they were wrong and to give up, so IMO the debate is now as how to extract themselves, and their taxes, from the Ukrainian fiasco without losing too much face.

[beautifulthailand99]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My 2 bob's worth is that western powers, mainly the US decided to punish Russia by a rapid victory over the invasion, but erred in the assessment that Russia would quickly be sent packing, humiliated. I doubt they anticipated the resilience of the Russians, or appreciated the cost of a drawn out stalemate. Having boxed themselves into a rhetorical corner, it would be too embarrassing to admit they were wrong and to give up, so IMO the debate is now as how to extract themselves, and their taxes, from the Ukrainian fiasco without losing too much face.

Some of that is undoubtedly true - early on in the conflict we had a lot of briefing Putin was on his last legs and was about to die sort of stuff. All nonsense or that there would be a palace coup to eject him which didn't happen. He seemingly has never been more powerful and the one person who spoke his mind got blown out of the air. The US wants to move the focus onto China and prepare for potential conflict there and now Israel has blown up as well Ukraine has moved down the pecking order. Very telling that Netanhayu turned down a solidarity visit from Zelenskiy shortly after October 7th whilst welcoming every other leader with open arms. They are supping from the same cup and there's only room for one of them.

 

That and the sort of ammo and kit Ukraine needs is pretty much exhausted whereas Russia has gone onto a war footing with it's military-industrial complex and appears to have gotten around sanctions like Iran has managed for over 20 years. Oh, and Biden wants a foreign policy win before the next election not a forever war. Dark times indeed for Ukraine in every respect. It would appear that Zelenskiy and the Russians were on the point of a peace deal in the months after the invasion but Boris was sent to say don't worry fight on we've got your back and the result has been the utter destruction of the country,it's youth and the displacement of millions that will probably never return.

 

This is from March 2022 https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-neutral-status-russia-peace-agreement-volodymyr-zelenskyy/

[Morch]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My 2 bob's worth is that western powers, mainly the US decided to punish Russia by a rapid victory over the invasion, but erred in the assessment that Russia would quickly be sent packing, humiliated. I doubt they anticipated the resilience of the Russians, or appreciated the cost of a drawn out stalemate. Having boxed themselves into a rhetorical corner, it would be too embarrassing to admit they were wrong and to give up, so IMO the debate is now as how to extract themselves, and their taxes, from the Ukrainian fiasco without losing too much face.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Whereas Russia's expectations of swift victory.....?

[tgw]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My 2 bob's worth is that western powers, mainly the US decided to punish Russia by a rapid victory over the invasion, but erred in the assessment that Russia would quickly be sent packing, humiliated. I doubt they anticipated the resilience of the Russians, or appreciated the cost of a drawn out stalemate. Having boxed themselves into a rhetorical corner, it would be too embarrassing to admit they were wrong and to give up, so IMO the debate is now as how to extract themselves, and their taxes, from the Ukrainian fiasco without losing too much face.

 

You don't even have 2 bobs.

Even a single bob wouldn't come up with such nonsense.

Western powers didn't deliver much to Ukraine pre-invasion, except a couple of cargo planes of Javelins.

And after the invasion, Western help was not that great either, falling far short of delivering what Ukraine needed for a "rapid victory over the invasion".

Get your facts straight.

You are posting disinformation.

Edited December 1, 2023 by tgw

[RayC]

On 11/30/2023 at 4:19 PM, mikebike said:

Curious as to what you envision that "end" would look like. ie: terms of settlement... 

 

Have a look at the Ukraine thread, Mike. In summary, Russia gets to keep the Crimea and Donbass. A reward for aggression. 

 

When challenged on his pro-Putin views, he resorts to outright lies e.g. wgt post-WW2 Yalta conference; the acceptance of Ukraine's borders post break-up of the Soviet Union.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/1/2023 at 1:18 PM, beautifulthailand99 said:

It would appear that Zelenskiy and the Russians were on the point of a peace deal in the months after the invasion but Boris was sent to say don't worry fight on we've got your back and the result has been the utter destruction of the country,it's youth and the displacement of millions that will probably never return.

Zelensky should have read up on a bit of British history before trusting a word that came out of Boris's mouth. Things might have been so different with a lot less dead to bury.

[Wobblybob]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

Zelensky should have read up on a bit of British history before trusting a word that came out of Boris's mouth. Things might have been so different with a lot less dead to bury.

Always somebody elses fault with you and never the perpetrators that started this evil invasion!

[thaibeachlovers]

Is it significant that the only stories coming out of Ukraine on Al Jazeera are of the human interest variety, and nothing about the 'counter attack" or any villages being captured etc. Seems Zelensky may be looking for a friendly country to retire to in due course.

 

 

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Is it significant that the only stories coming out of Ukraine on Al Jazeera are of the human interest variety, and nothing about the 'counter attack" or any villages being captured etc. Seems Zelensky may be looking for a friendly country to retire to in due course.

 

 

How do you expect to get any news if your only source of news is from an Arab  state  owned so called news outlet?

[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Is it significant that the only stories coming out of Ukraine on Al Jazeera are of the human interest variety, and nothing about the 'counter attack" or any villages being captured etc. Seems Zelensky may be looking for a friendly country to retire to in due course.

 

 

All the Z people would certainly love that. I would say such vile celebrations are premature.

[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Zelensky should have read up on a bit of British history before trusting a word that came out of Boris's mouth. Things might have been so different with a lot less dead to bury.

The Kremlin talking points keep on coming.

[Hanaguma]

End game?

 

Russia gets Donbass and officially gets to keep Crimea.

Ukraine agrees to not join NATO, but can join the EU.

Russia guarantees Ukranian sovereignty.