I think I found a solution to this tax nonsense

[jphasia]

5 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That you have no assets in Thailand is irrelevant. It is proposed that any income brought into Thailand will be taxable.

 

I have no assets that provide income in Thailand, however I bring in enough money annually that I could be taxed. There are ways through careful planning to reduce, or possibly eliminate, taxable income to under the tax threshold.

Got your point. About Assets in Thailand, I misread your previous post as I understood "any assets sold in Tax year", you were refering to Assets in Thailand.

To be clear, I have no asset at all wherever in Thailand or anywhere else. No asset under my name. But yes, I am sure I bring in enough money too that I could be taxed.

Thanks again

[foreverlomsak]

6 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

It isn't Immigration. It is the Revenue folks who might look askance on the practice of alleviating the need to have a Thai Bank with what would otherwise be taxable income.

Do the Immigration staff who receive "tea money" for services rendered fully declare it in their annual assessments, I think not, target for RD investigators (getting at the Agents a different way) as per Al Capone they couldn't prove his illegal activities, so tax man got him for tax evasion.

[Mike Lister]

20 hours ago, eisfeld said:

 

I believe there is a misunderstanding here. It does not matter where you physically are when the credit card is paid off. What matters are two things: 1. that you are a tax resident in Thailand (180 days in the country) and 2. that you transfer earned funds into Thailand.

 

You see, your physical location at the time of transfer plays no role when trying to meet those two requirements. Also paying off a foreign credit card is not even transfering money into Thailand, it is transfering money to the foreign card issuer.

 

Now, when you pay someone in Thailand or withdrawing cash with the card then you are actually transfering money into Thailand. Again, it doesn't matter if you are even in Thailand at that moment. All that matters is that you are transfering earned funds into the country.

 

That being said, I doubt they'll be checking card transactions in the near future. If they are actually going to enforce it as announced then they will start with wire transfers first. Also they wont be taxing all incoming transfers. What will happen is that they will make people prove that the funds were either savings from before, or already taxed or count as assessable income that will be taxed.

"when you pay someone in Thailand or withdrawing cash with the card then you are actually transfering money into Thailand".

 

Thank you for clarifying that.

[PJ71]

On 12/9/2023 at 5:12 PM, Celsius said:

My wife actually has a job and earns a decent income.

 

I will just attach myself to her tax return so it looks like she is supporting me. May even get a bigger refund!

 

I will be using ATM and my non Thai credit cards to survive here.

 

If I decide to stay......

Genius

[Celsius]

Something else just occured to me.

 

All this talk about tracking ATM withdrawls and credit card spending is wishful thinking.

 

Thai government was unable to collect tax from condo and airbnb rentals for the last 40 years. Even if you report the landlord to tax authorities, they do not seem to care.

 

I wonder how are they going to pull off even 0.01% of things being discussed here as even their smart BMW is unable to catch 99% of overstayers.

[sometimewoodworker]

On 12/10/2023 at 6:04 PM, jphasia said:

To be clear, I have no asset at all wherever in Thailand or anywhere else. No asset under my name.

I think you are fixated on the term assets and income earned from assets.

 

For the taxation it is not important how the income becomes yours,  if you have a job you earn income if you get money from other sources that can be stocks, bonds, property etc it is income.

 

The proposal is that any income brought into Thailand will be taxed whenever it was earned.

 

The current law is that income earned in the current year brought into Thailand in the current year is taxable but income earned in previous years and brought into Thailand in the current year is not taxed. AFIK this is a unique tax law. I know of no other country where just delaying income stops it from being taxed.

[federicoP]

14 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

For the taxation it is not important how the income becomes yours,  if you have a job you earn income if you get money from other sources that can be stocks, bonds, property etc it is income.

 

How the income becomes yours could be important from the point of view of the applicable DTA.

 

For instance generally all the DTAs state that income from immovable property must be taxed only in the country where the property is situated.

In this case, if somebody has a property outside Thailand, it would be wise to use a separate account, in his country, where to receive this income and from where to send the money to Thailand.

 

In the case that Thai Revenue asks something about this money transfer, it will be easy to demonstrate that it comes from a property that, based on the DTA, is not taxable in Thailand.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, federicoP said:

 

How the income becomes yours could be important from the point of view of the applicable DTA.

 

For instance generally all the DTAs state that income from immovable property must be taxed only in the country where the property is situated.

In this case, if somebody has a property outside Thailand, it would be wise to use a separate account, in his country, where to receive this income and from where to send the money to Thailand.

 

In the case that Thai Revenue asks something about this money transfer, it will be easy to demonstrate that it comes from a property that, based on the DTA, is not taxable in Thailand.

I have no idea what you mean by “DTA”.

Your ideas on “income from immovable property must be taxed only in the country where the property is situated.” is wonderful for you to believe however the Thai tax authorities do not agree. Neither does my investment advisor’s taxation specialist.

 

the advice is that ALL income (from any origin including from property) remitted to Thailand WILL be subject to Thai taxation, however dual taxation treaties ( do note all Thai dual taxation treaties are bilateral so no 2 are the same)  may reduce the tax payable in Thailand, possibly eliminating it for some people.

 

You also have a rather confused understanding of dual taxation agreements. None of them stop you being taxed in Thailand if the calculations show that your income is high enough and the counterparties tax charged is lower than your Thai tax liability.

Edited December 12, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[federicoP]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I have no idea what you mean by “DTA”.

Your ideas on “income from immovable property must be taxed only in the country where the property is situated.” is wonderful for you to believe however the Thai tax authorities do not agree. Neither does my investment advisor’s taxation specialist.

 

What do I mean with "DTA" ?   For example, that one between UK and Thailand :

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/english_e.pdf

I have never seen in any official document that the Thai Revenue does not agree with the DTAs stipulated by Thailand and other around 60 Countries , and in any case it certainly does not have the authority to cancel any international agreement.

 

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

the advice is that ALL income (from any origin including from property) remitted to Thailand WILL be subject to Thai taxation, however dual taxation treaties ( do note all Thai dual taxation treaties are bilateral so no 2 are the same)  may reduce the tax payable in Thailand, possibly eliminating it for some people.

 

If you read the articles 7 and 14 you can see that the income from immovable properties, including their alienation, is taxable in the country where they are located. 

 

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

 

You also have a rather confused understanding of dual taxation agreements. None of them stop you being taxed in Thailand if the calculations show that your income is high enough and the counterparties tax charged is lower than your Thai tax liability.

 

I never said that, based on DTA, you can avoid completely and always to pay the thai taxes, I said that, in many cases, your DTA can save you from paying additional taxes (immovable property, and the recommendation to keep separate accounts was just an example).

In some case, it can even help you to reduce your total tax expenditure.

Obviously it depends on your DTA and the kind of income.

[topt]

6 hours ago, federicoP said:

If you read the articles 7 and 14 you can see that the income from immovable properties, including their alienation, is taxable in the country where they are located. 

Article 7 actually states -

Quote

(1) Income from immovable property may be taxed in the Contracting State in which such property is situated.

it uses the word "may" and does not say "must"as you quoted. This certainly raises a question mark in my mind...........

 

And just as a further comment on all these posters who talk about opening and maintaining a separate account to differentiate funds. There have been many threads on here about how difficult it is for UK citizens who now reside outside the UK to open new bank accounts. 

NB - for any nitpickers I deliberately said difficult rather than impossible....... 

[federicoP]

9 hours ago, topt said:

it uses the word "may" and does not say "must"as you quoted. This certainly raises a question mark in my mind...........

 

Yes, you are right, I had a version in an other language that is different......

[digbeth]

so if you use your foreign credit card to buy gold in Thailand and sell the gold for cash, without ever depositing that into Thai bank accounts, I guess you can survive on that

 

threshold for gold shops to start reporting big purchases for money laundering is 2 million, so make smaller purchases like you're helping  bargirls with sick buffaloes you should be fine 

[digbeth]

On 12/11/2023 at 6:16 AM, Mike Lister said:

"when you pay someone in Thailand or withdrawing cash with the card then you are actually transfering money into Thailand".

 

Thank you for clarifying that.

 

how would they know which purchases are from genuine tourists and which are from tax resident using foreign cards, there are around 800 million card transactions in Thailand each year,  

[Ben Zioner]

25 minutes ago, digbeth said:

how would they know which purchases are from genuine tourists and which are from tax resident using foreign cards, there are around 800 million card transactions in Thailand each year,  

Again, you have to see an audit situation, they will not sift through all card transactions in Thailand, they will ask your Swiss bank to disclose all your transaction in Thailand. This is a CRS basic.

 

You may stay under the radar for years possibly forever, but if RD think they have a reason to audit you and they find out that you have been living of ATMs, they will hit you, very hard. Also some RDs have targetted audits as well as random audits.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[sometimewoodworker]

On 12/12/2023 at 3:16 PM, federicoP said:

 

If you read the articles 7 and 14 you can see that the income from immovable properties, including their alienation, is taxable in the country where they are located. 

the advice being given by a major international tax advisor is that all income including rent is part of your tax assessment. It is not unknown for interpretations to differ and for Thai officials to get things wrong it is extremely uncommon for such a major international to make such a major mistake as you suggest, not impossible and advice will change if they find your interpretation is correct, however they makes their business by advising on how to minimise client tax liability not maximise countries tax returns 

 

The principle is that you first pay tax in the region of origin, so the rent in the U.K. is taxed in the U.K. along with anything else that is taxable there like pensions.

Your income which includes everything that has been taxed in the U.K. is then declared for Thai tax. The dual taxation agreement then kicks in and the tax paid in the U.K. is deducted from the Thai tax liability. This process means that the U.K. gets first bite so retaining tax liabilities for U.K. property as U.K. revenue. This doesn’t exclude the Thai tax authority from collecting revenue if your U.K. tax  is less than your Thai tax

 

On 12/12/2023 at 3:16 PM, federicoP said:

it certainly does not have the authority to cancel any international agreement.

I never suggested that it did.

[sometimewoodworker]

On 12/12/2023 at 10:22 PM, topt said:

Article 7 actually states -

it uses the word "may" and does not say "must"as you quoted. This certainly raises a question mark in my mind...........

 

And just as a further comment on all these posters who talk about opening and maintaining a separate account to differentiate funds. There have been many threads on here about how difficult it is for UK citizens who now reside outside the UK to open new bank accounts. 

NB - for any nitpickers I deliberately said difficult rather than impossible....... 

you are only too true about the fact that is extremely difficult for non resident U.K. citizens to get a new U.K. account. I have heard of only 1 bank and 1 individual who can facilitate it.

[federicoP]

26 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The principle is that you first pay tax in the region of origin, so the rent in the U.K. is taxed in the U.K. along with anything else that is taxable there like pensions.

Your income which includes everything that has been taxed in the U.K. is then declared for Thai tax. The dual taxation agreement then kicks in and the tax paid in the U.K. is deducted from the Thai tax liability. This process means that the U.K. gets first bite so retaining tax liabilities for U.K. property as U.K. revenue.

 

I do not know in UK, but in my country the tax levels are different depending on the types of income.

Pension and employment have different tax imposition from dividends, from intersts, from property alienation, from property rental, etc.

So it should be better (but very complicated......) to transfer to Thailand only the incomes that have been subjected in the country of origin to high tax levels, and to be able to demonstrate it (even more complicated....)

[sometimewoodworker]

20 minutes ago, federicoP said:

 

I do not know in UK, but in my country the tax levels are different depending on the types of income.

Pension and employment have different tax imposition from dividends, from intersts, from property alienation, from property rental, etc.

So it should be better (but very complicated......) to transfer to Thailand only the incomes that have been subjected in the country of origin to high tax levels, and to be able to demonstrate it (even more complicated....)

Virtually all tax regimes work in a similar way with income being taxed differently depending on source.
 

However I very much doubt that you are able differentiate between differently taxed income.

 

The important point is that it is a proposal even though it is imminent it may not happen.

Also even the major tax advisers do not have the final details as the Thai tax authorities are still working on them.

 

I am reasonably confident in my supposition of the requirements of the Thai tax authority. However this is significantly more complicated by the fact that it is only income received in Thailand that is taxable.

Be thankful that you don’t pay tax in the USA, where income world wide is taxable.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 12/10/2023 at 10:23 AM, spidermike007 said:

Just have funds wired to the wife's account. And bring in lots of cash whenever you can. Problem solved. 

 

From this morning's American Chamber of Commerce webinar session on all this, one of the elements that got some discussion is the ability under Thai tax law for a foreign spouse to gift their Thai wife (legally married with a certificate) up to 20 million baht without having that count as foreign source taxable income. See the last item in the list below:

 

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 12/11/2023 at 8:48 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

The proposal is that any income brought into Thailand will be taxed whenever it was earned.

 

The current law is that income earned in the current year brought into Thailand in the current year is taxable but income earned in previous years and brought into Thailand in the current year is not taxed. AFIK this is a unique tax law. I know of no other country where just delaying income stops it from being taxed.

 

That's now been updated recently, according to the American chamber, with a Thai RD provision adding a grandfathering clause:

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 12/12/2023 at 12:43 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

None of them stop you being taxed in Thailand if the calculations show that your income is high enough and the counterparties tax charged is lower than your Thai tax liability.

 

However, there are certain types of U.S. sourced income for American citizens -- such as Social Security payments and government pensions from the U.S. -- that can only be taxed by the U.S. and are exempt from Thai taxation, under the terms of the U.S.-Thai double taxation agreement.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That's now been updated recently, according to the American chamber, with a Thai RD provision adding a grandfathering clause:

 

That is exactly as I explained it this guidance just gives exactly what I explained, not surprising as my investment advisor is receiving information either from Mazars or an equally competent source.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

However, there are certain types of U.S. sourced income for American citizens -- such as Social Security payments and government pensions from the U.S. -- that can only be taxed by the U.S. and are exempt from Thai taxation, under the terms of the U.S.-Thai double taxation agreement.

This is a situation where you need advice from an expert the Thai regulations who is also expert in the way that your country’s taxation agreements are written. 
 

Regrettably there are sufficient differences between taxation treaties that if you are American (I am not)you need advice specific to your nationality.

 

My information is specific to a British citizen, it is generally correct for the majority of countries but country specific advice is probably required if you bring in enough money to get caught by the tax system.

 

However it is still a proposal and there are sufficient very high net worth extremely influential, mostly Thai, who will be paying millions, probably hundreds of millions, extra in tax if it is actually enforced. Your guess is as good as any on the result.

[jerrymahoney]

As posted in a parallel topic:

 

17 hours ago, Dogmatix said:
Re gifts. They thought gifts from offshore to a spouse or other direct family member should be OK

 

(JerryM) I will infer that, at least per the knowledge of whoever is 'they' and the word 'should', since the new gift tax regs came into force FEB 2016, it has never happened.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1306896-thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/?do=findComment&comment=18555535