New minimum wages are too low and need review : PM

[JackGats]

Lots of people on this forum with their EU-socialist frame of mind supporting the minimal wage jobs destruction machine. Each +1 euro on the minimal wage means so many thousands of jobs lost. It is well known even to the socialoids, but ideology trumps everything. So the job destruction goes on, more industries delocalize, even the higher middle class can't afford repair men or household staff and end up living a drudging life.

 

Is it funny to live in South East Asia and not being able to afford someone to clean your condo?

 

The market should be left to set the price of goods and services, period.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

1 minute ago, JackGats said:

Lots of people on this forum with their EU-socialist frame of mind supporting the minimal wage jobs destruction machine. Each +1 euro on the minimal wage means so many thousands of jobs lost. It is well known even to the socialoids, but ideology trumps everything. So the job destruction goes on, more industries delocalize, even the higher middle class can't afford repair men or household staff and end up living a drudging life.

 

Is it funny to live in South East Asia and not being able to afford someone to clean your condo?

 

The market should be left to set the price of goods and services, period.

 

I read the Fountainhead by Ayn Rand and at the time was inspired by the notion of totally free markets but the reality is a bit different in my opinion. 

Free markets sound nice if it is a level playing field between worker and boss but its not. The power is with the bosses. Little support for workers if unemployed, of course, so in a so called free market it's often take it or leave it. That's why unions happen of course. 

It's not about ideology and socialism when it comes to worker wages in Thailand. It comes down to if someone can live on the minimum wage in a dignified and healthy way. Often not. So without unionism the government has to intervene sometimes with regulations and or higher taxes. 

 

[Sweet Swede]

The PM is only trying to suck up to voters for next election, he dont give a <deleted>. No REAL and justified minimum wage rise will happen. In my opinion minimum wage should be increased to at least 450 bath nationwide with today's cost of living, which is what I consider is a minimum pay, when people work fork for me, and depending on what kind of work it is, often adding 50 -100 bath when justified. Thai people in my experience the 28 years I lived here are really good workers who deserve a reasonable wage for their work. I see in many posts how my fellow farangs complain about how "worthless" Thai workers are. I totally disagree, because I have a lot of experience in my 28 years here and my customer satisfaction is probably close to 95% which i never experienced as that good during the 35 years in Scandinavia. No complaints on the multitude Thai billionaires who suck money from the population, but complaining about ordinary Thai workers is disgraceful. If you are stupid enough to hire family members for projects instead of professionals, the blame is on you and not the unqualified worker, who just want a payment. I never fell into the family trap, which probably is the reason why many farang despice Thai workers. Prior to any job, confirm the workforce is skilled and you will be pleased. If you pay a decent wage you will never have problem with getting a skilled worker when you need it.

[Surasak]

80% of the population are stupid and the other 20% live off them.

[Brickleberry]

Storm in a teacup.

 

If anyone had done any research into the article, they would find that the daily minimum wage only affects around five hundred thousand workers; 0.8% of working age people. The other 5 million unskilled laborers are not even entitled to the minimum wage as they are migrant workers with different rules.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Brickleberry

[Ralf001]

16 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

The other 5 million unskilled laborers are not even entitled to the minimum wage as they are migrant workers with different rules.

And no unions.

[Jumbo1968]

If you have money you have power, the elite don’t want the ‘commoners’ to have that same as any other country.

[traveller101]

4 hours ago, JackGats said:

Lots of people on this forum with their EU-socialist frame of mind supporting the minimal wage jobs destruction machine. Each +1 euro on the minimal wage means so many thousands of jobs lost. It is well known even to the socialoids, but ideology trumps everything. So the job destruction goes on, more industries delocalize, even the higher middle class can't afford repair men or household staff and end up living a drudging life.

 

Is it funny to live in South East Asia and not being able to afford someone to clean your condo?

 

The market should be left to set the price of goods and services, period.

"Increase in the minimal wage means so many thousands of jobs lost"

"The market should be left to set the prices of goods and services"

2 statements of an uneducated, ignorant person. They're both plain wrong  on all fronts. What's been suggested here is the implementation of unfettered capitalism  in its purest form. With disastrous consequences last experienced in the feudal society of the middle ages. In today's times, it would propel the already large wealth gap between "haves and have nots" to extreme levels.

[Puccini]

14 hours ago, ezzra said:

Here's an idea Mr. PM, levy more stupid tax on expat and foreigners so you'll have enough to raise workers salaries... 

 

I thought it was the employers who pay the salaries of workers, not the Prime Minister.

[JackGats]

3 hours ago, traveller101 said:

..... What's been suggested here is the implementation of unfettered capitalism  in its purest form. With disastrous consequences last experienced in the feudal society of the middle ages.....

I didn't know capilalism, indeed in its unfettered form, dated back to the Middle Ages.

[MangoKorat]

20 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

Min wage rises = we lay off staff.

Yeah and you'd be happy to work for 300 baht per day or whatever pitiful amount it is wouldn't you?

Edited December 11, 2023 by MangoKorat

[Ralf001]

27 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Yeah and you'd be happy to work for 300 baht per day or whatever pitiful amount it is wouldn't you?

 

Yeah ive worked min wage jobs.

[MangoKorat]

19 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Yeah ive worked min wage jobs.

Worked = past tense.  Everyone has a right to a decent standard of living - one that doesn't shorten their life.

[Ralf001]

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Worked = past tense.  Everyone has a right to a decent standard of living - one that doesn't shorten their life.

 

Start at the bottom and work your way up.

[superal]

17 hours ago, Sweet Swede said:

The PM is only trying to suck up to voters for next election, he dont give a <deleted>. No REAL and justified minimum wage rise will happen. In my opinion minimum wage should be increased to at least 450 bath nationwide with today's cost of living, which is what I consider is a minimum pay, when people work fork for me, and depending on what kind of work it is, often adding 50 -100 bath when justified. Thai people in my experience the 28 years I lived here are really good workers who deserve a reasonable wage for their work. I see in many posts how my fellow farangs complain about how "worthless" Thai workers are. I totally disagree, because I have a lot of experience in my 28 years here and my customer satisfaction is probably close to 95% which i never experienced as that good during the 35 years in Scandinavia. No complaints on the multitude Thai billionaires who suck money from the population, but complaining about ordinary Thai workers is disgraceful. If you are stupid enough to hire family members for projects instead of professionals, the blame is on you and not the unqualified worker, who just want a payment. I never fell into the family trap, which probably is the reason why many farang despice Thai workers. Prior to any job, confirm the workforce is skilled and you will be pleased. If you pay a decent wage you will never have problem with getting a skilled worker when you need it.

Totally agree . Generally the Thai school kids are taught the bare minimum and will end up in mundane , dead end jobs which is what the elite Thai Hi So want . In my experience , I have found that most young Thais can learn new skills quickly , if given a chance . However their futures are normally mapped out at an early age and give little hope of a prosperous life . My lady pays here restaurant staff 300 baht a day plus 2 free meals . She often has inquiries from job seekers who are willing to work for less . Any significant wage rises would mean a hike of the menu prices and customers will just find somewhere cheaper to eat which would result in business closure and loss of jobs.  

[JackGats]

13 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Yeah and you'd be happy to work for 300 baht per day or whatever pitiful amount it is wouldn't you?

You don't understand how a market works. The value of goods and services is what people (customers and employers) are prepared to pay for them. If a job is too poorly paid, nobody volunteers to do it and employers are forced to raise wages to attract labour. Conversely if a job is overpaid, an excess of people gravitate to it, and employers lower the wages.

[MangoKorat]

3 hours ago, JackGats said:

You don't understand how a market works. The value of goods and services is what people (customers and employers) are prepared to pay for them. If a job is too poorly paid, nobody volunteers to do it and employers are forced to raise wages to attract labour. Conversely if a job is overpaid, an excess of people gravitate to it, and employers lower the wages.

I understand exactly how a market works - its called exploitation! Many employers try to pay as little as they can rather than what the job is worth - in fact, that is rarely the best policy.  When I was an employer I found that when I paid better wages I had happier staff that were far more productive and staff retention rates were much better - the capitalist model doesn't always work.  One of the biggest costs I faced was training staff up to be proficient at their given task, staff constantly leaving can be a huge drain on finances.

 

I also understand that if people cannot find better paid work, they are often forced into accepting low pay. People don't usually 'volunteer' to work as you suggest, they HAVE to work to support themselves and their families.  In Thailand, people from poor backgrounds are often very poorly educated and that limits their ability to find well paid work - they therefore find themselves stuck in a circle of poverty and debt. I don't know how many Thai people you know but most of those that I know have bigger debts than they can reasonably service and work much longer hours than their Western counterparts do - 10 hours per day, 6 days per week is the norm.

 

We no longer live in the dark ages and in all countries, the labour force has a right to expect that their pay and conditions will improve with time.  If we were talking about the UK, I guess the term I would use is 'we no longer send young boys up chimmneys' - even if some employers would still like to.

 

Its all very well for you to quote me the 'market model' - I very much doubt that you would accept the minimum wage and I suspect that you come from a country where the education is far better and where people have the ability to affect their life chances.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by MangoKorat

[MangoKorat]

16 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Start at the bottom and work your way up.

And you've tried that in Thailand have you? Educated in Thailand were you?

Edited December 12, 2023 by MangoKorat

[MangoKorat]

On 12/11/2023 at 8:44 AM, JackGats said:

Lots of people on this forum with their EU-socialist frame of mind supporting the minimal wage jobs destruction machine. Each +1 euro on the minimal wage means so many thousands of jobs lost. It is well known even to the socialoids, but ideology trumps everything. So the job destruction goes on, more industries delocalize, even the higher middle class can't afford repair men or household staff and end up living a drudging life.

 

Is it funny to live in South East Asia and not being able to afford someone to clean your condo?

 

The market should be left to set the price of goods and services, period.

Tosh!

[MangoKorat]

On 12/11/2023 at 10:26 AM, Surasak said:

80% of the population are stupid and the other 20% live off them.

Don't you mean 'kept stupid'?

[JackGats]

11 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

...

 

I also understand that if people cannot find better paid work, they are often forced into accepting low pay. People don't usually 'volunteer' to work as you suggest, they HAVE to work to support themselves and their families. ...

 

Never mind which particular verb of the English language I used. I couldn't write with multiple choice, so I used the verb "volunteer", indeed maybe to emphasize no one is forced to accept a job (much less to have offsprings they can't support). Forcing anyone into a particular job isn't called "forced labour" for nothing.

 

Supply and demand is what determines the price of goods and services. Once you let governments set such prices, the worm is in the apple and you start seeing distortions and inefficiencies. 

[Ralf001]

13 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

With no health and safety measures, working conditions you wouldn't send your pet rat into etc. etc.  Whilst there is exploitation, there is need for unions.  That does not mean I totally support unions, they can go too far but you will always get employers that exploit their workforce when they are not regulated.

 

This is especially true in Asia - check out the Rana Plaza collapse in 2013 when 1134 workers were killed as a direct result of capitalism in Bangladesh.  The building's owners, builders, and the factory owners were all at fault but it was the workers who died.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rana_Plaza_collapse

 

That's what happens when capitalists are given a free rein.

 

 

 

Unions demand 5 months salary yearly bonus at my work.

 

They can <deleted> right off.

[MangoKorat]

38 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Unions demand 5 months salary yearly bonus at my work.

 

They can <deleted> right off.

Obviously I don't know the rates at your company but I can see situations where that could work out quite well for both employer and employee.

 

Providing the rates are set right, the employer gets the productivity they require whilst the employee only gets their bonus if they achieve targets.  What's wrong with that?

Edited December 12, 2023 by MangoKorat

[MangoKorat]

8 hours ago, superal said:

Totally agree . Generally the Thai school kids are taught the bare minimum and will end up in mundane , dead end jobs which is what the elite Thai Hi So want . In my experience , I have found that most young Thais can learn new skills quickly , if given a chance . However their futures are normally mapped out at an early age and give little hope of a prosperous life . My lady pays here restaurant staff 300 baht a day plus 2 free meals . She often has inquiries from job seekers who are willing to work for less . Any significant wage rises would mean a hike of the menu prices and customers will just find somewhere cheaper to eat which would result in business closure and loss of jobs.  

A little contradiction in your post there Al - whilst you clearly understand the rich vs poor and education thing, you also state that significant wage rises would lead to less customers.  Clearly I don't know your lady's business but would say a 5 or 10 baht increase per meal give staff a better deal without forcing customers away?

[Ralf001]

36 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Obviously I don't know the rates at your company but I can see situations where that could work out quite well for both employer and employee.

 

Providing the rates are set right, the employer gets the productivity they require whilst the employee only gets their bonus if they achieve targets.  What's wrong with that?

 

We do not get productivity.

 

employees do not meet targets.

 

Both irrelevant in the eyes of the union and they are trigger happy forcing staff to strike.

 

The sooner we <deleted> off the Thai staff the better.

[MangoKorat]

23 hours ago, traveller101 said:

"Increase in the minimal wage means so many thousands of jobs lost"

"The market should be left to set the prices of goods and services"

2 statements of an uneducated, ignorant person. They're both plain wrong  on all fronts. What's been suggested here is the implementation of unfettered capitalism  in its purest form. With disastrous consequences last experienced in the feudal society of the middle ages. In today's times, it would propel the already large wealth gap between "haves and have nots" to extreme levels.

I have to say that many years ago, I held similar views (to the ones you have quoted from Jackgats).  I was a proper 'right winger' and ran my own business.

 

However, midway through life I decided to change careers but needed to go to University to obtain a degree to enable that career.  I'd never bothered much about education when I was younger - not formally anyway, so I didn't even have the qualifications necessary to get into Uni.

 

The University agreed that if I took a foundation degree and passed (choice of subjects), they would let me on to the course.  I looked at the range of subjects and purely as it seemed the easiest choice, I chose Social Science.

 

Boy did that change my way of thinking - especially as my 'right wing' views prevented me from totally accepting the 'left wing' bias of the course.  What it did for me though, was to cause me to stop and think about people's life chances, the uneasy 'balance' between rich and poor and the exploitative reality of capitalism.  I'd previously thought that capitalism was the only way, I still do to a point but capitalism does not need to encompass exploitation - that comes out of greed.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by MangoKorat

[MangoKorat]

5 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

We do not get productivity.

 

employees do not meet targets.

 

Both irrelevant in the eyes of the union and they are trigger happy forcing staff to strike.

 

The sooner we <deleted> off the Thai staff the better.

Well then, in that case, that particular model doesn't work. That doesn't mean it can't - far from it. It can be an excellent way of both parties achieving what they want.

[Ralf001]

2 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Well then, in that case, that particular model doesn't work. That doesn't mean it can't - far from it. It can be an excellent way of both parties achieving what they want.

 

Its been an ongoing issue for nearly 15 years.

However with tightening of company policy, it is easier to dismiss staff without warning and not be in breach of labour laws and there is nothing the Union can do.

[MangoKorat]

1 hour ago, JackGats said:

indeed maybe to emphasize no one is forced to accept a job (much less to have offsprings they can't support).

Just remember please that we are talking about Thailand.  In many cases, people are not trying to support 'offspring' they are simply trying to support themselves and because of the way Thai society is organised, they may well have to support their parents.  People can choose whether to have 'offspring' or not but I've yet to hear of anyone who chose not to have parents.

[metisdead]

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