New minimum wages are too low and need review : PM

[Yellowtail]

20 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

I have to say that many years ago, I held similar views (to the ones you have quoted from Jackgats).  I was a proper 'right winger' and ran my own business.

 

However, midway through life I decided to change careers but needed to go to University to obtain a degree to enable that career.  I'd never bothered much about education when I was younger - not formally anyway, so I didn't even have the qualifications necessary to get into Uni.

 

The University agreed that if I took a foundation degree and passed (choice of subjects), they would let me on to the course.  I looked at the range of subjects and purely as it seemed the easiest choice, I chose Social Science.

 

Boy did that change my way of thinking - especially as my 'right wing' views prevented me from totally accepting the 'left wing' bias of the course.  What it did for me though, was to cause me to stop and think about people's life chances, the uneasy 'balance' between rich and poor and the exploitative reality of capitalism.  I'd previously thought that capitalism was the only way, I still do to a point but capitalism does not need to encompass exploitation - that comes out of greed.

 

Yeah, universities are generally not much more than leftist indoctrination mills. 

 

[Surasak]

22 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Don't you mean 'kept stupid'?

Now how come I didn't think of that, I've been here long enough to know better

[MangoKorat]

8 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, universities are generally not much more than leftist indoctrination mills. 

 

There is a reply but it would be off topic and I'm already in dispute on that matter. Leave it.

[Yellowtail]

7 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

There is a reply but it would be off topic and I'm already in dispute on that matter. Leave it.

That's what I thought, thanks! 

[superal]

On 12/12/2023 at 7:05 PM, MangoKorat said:

A little contradiction in your post there Al - whilst you clearly understand the rich vs poor and education thing, you also state that significant wage rises would lead to less customers.  Clearly I don't know your lady's business but would say a 5 or 10 baht increase per meal give staff a better deal without forcing customers away?

Up here in Issan , the  eatery business is very competitive with low profit margins , however it is in our case the old  cliche of " sell it cheap and pile them high " that has created  her low profit business  . Any increase in the price of meals would drive our customers to other restaurants . Her staff are happy with the 300 baht a day and 2 meals . What you have to consider is that up here in the north east , 300 baht a day , although tight , is enough to feed a small family , if living purely in the Thai way . Many have their homes on land that they own , so no rent . Use mostly motor cycles and do not tax or insure them , as is the way up here and they are mostly ignored by highway police .

Having said that , our local do-it-all tradesman has put his daily rate up to 500 baht a day from 300 baht . He is always in demand . 300 baht a day , working in Bangkok , would be a struggle .

[MangoKorat]

23 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, universities are generally not much more than leftist indoctrination mills. 

Well I will in fact answer you, if for no other reason than to give someone something to do (removing my post).

 

There is no way that I was indoctrinated either way by my experiences at Uni.  I was far too long in the tooth for that (40).  What it did however, was to offer an alternative explanation of the effects of capitalism and make me consider differing points of view.  I still believe that those who take the risk of running a business should get the greatest rewards but they must also realise that they most likely wouldn't be where they are without their staff.  There is no need for exploitation or greed.

 

Thailand with its long hours and low pay rates is a prime example of all that's wrong with the bad side of capitalism. The gap between rich and poor in Thailand is massive - its changing but very, very slowly as the dinosaurs continue to control the politcal situation and therefore their grip on power and wealth.

 

One of my very first visions of Thailand 21 years ago, and one I'm sure many here will have also witnessed- was a young man with no legs pulling himself along the pavement on Sukhumvit Rd, Bangkok. He was on on a piece of what looked like cardboard but it must have been something stronger. At the very same moment, the slow moving traffic allowed me a glance of a passing huge chauffer driven Mercedes Benz with a middle aged Hi-So woman sitting in the back, dripping with gold.  For a moment, the woman was directly in line with the poor guy on the board and I just thought, what a contrast, what sort of a country is this?

 

Those who object to an increase in the minimum wage should maybe give some thought to the fact that for many - 300 baht per day = 30 baht an hour. I don't even think its possible to buy 2 coffees in Starbucks for 300 baht now and most Thai's have probably never bought a coffee there.  Yes, people get by on 300 baht but would you want their diet? Have you seen the cuts of meat they think of as normal? Good health should be the right of every Thai citizen, not an aspiration.

 

Any increase in the hourly rate will be welcome to most people, I'm sure but I doubt it will come close to covering the cost of living increases seen over the last 2 years.

Edited December 14, 2023 by MangoKorat

[Sweet Swede]

Lots of people on this forum with their EU-socialist frame of mind supporting the minimal wage jobs destruction machine. Each +1 euro on the minimal wage means so many thousands of jobs lost. It is well known even to the socialoids, but ideology trumps everything. So the job destruction goes on, more industries delocalize, even the higher middle class can't afford repair men or household staff and end up living a drudging life.

 

Is it funny to live in South East Asia and not being able to afford someone to clean your condo?

 

The market should be left to set the price of goods and services, period.

[Sweet Swede]

 

 

 

I hope you recover from your delusional sickness and maybe you can do the cleaning of the condo yourself. The wages here are ridicoulysly low for unskilled workers and should be increased to a decent pay level that actually give them a better living standard. Thailand has improved a lot since I moved here in 1995, especially with regards to health care for the citizens, but not with regards to minimum pay. I come from a country with good living standard, but if you need people to clean your condo you have to pay a lot more than here. But if you really need that kind of service it will be provided for free by the heath authorities if you really need it. I am old and so are my friends and one of them suffered a stroke some years ago, but today can live in an ordinary apartment, because of good care from the health department.

If the condo cleaners become too expensive, you will always have the option to move elsewhere, maybe to a native tribe in the Amazonian jungle.

I do not know what country you originated from, but most people in the country I grow up in can afford repair men, because they don’t suffer with ridiculously low wages like here. Maybe not enough payment to keep household staff, which I don’t consider to be a problem at all.

To justify the low minimum pay, Authorities say that ONLY 500 000 Thai people are included in that, but also millions of immigrants from neighbouring countries that don’t even have the basic rights of Thai residents. Often Immigrants are paid lower wages than stated minimum wage. That means they consider these people are not people, but cattle that should be pleased, with what they get.

Your post declares to me that you are a very spoiled individual and based on what you write, you probably consider yourself higher middle class.

I also really wonder what socialoids are, because that is a new word in my library but when I look it up on Google it was explained as: Derived from the word Droid , socialoid refers to a robot or android that can utilized for social media activity with a company. Did you have too many shots of Booze when writing the post or maybe it was Socialist you meant? No big deal, because you probably don’t know what socialism is anyway; except that it is a word fascist often use to describe everything that does not favour policies that is not in favour of the upper classes an billionaires in a society that you admire, or maybe you just want to be part of an elite which you lack the money and power to be part of. For all I know you can be a retired shoe salesman just like Al Bundy or maybe a Trump cult member, which really would explain your views. Your PERIOD ending was superb, which means no need to comment as you are the chosen one who knows everything . Is your real birth name JESUS from Nazareth? if so, please forgive me doubting you.😂

Finally I like to answer your question:

Yes it will still be funny to live here, even if I can’t afford to take advantage of cheap, underpaid labour to clean my residence.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Sweet Swede

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Well I will in fact answer you, if for no other reason than to give someone something to do (removing my post).

 

There is no way that I was indoctrinated either way by my experiences at Uni.  I was far too long in the tooth for that (40).  What it did however, was to offer an alternative explanation of the effects of capitalism and make me consider differing points of view.  I still believe that those who take the risk of running a business should get the greatest rewards but they must also realise that they most likely wouldn't be where they are without their staff.  There is no need for exploitation or greed.

Are there people that don't realize they would have nothing without the staff? 

 

An employer that whant to pay less is greedy, but an employee that wants to be paid more is not? 

 

2 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Thailand with its long hours and low pay rates is a prime example of all that's wrong with the bad side of capitalism. The gap between rich and poor in Thailand is massive - its changing but very, very slowly as the dinosaurs continue to control the politcal situation and therefore their grip on power and wealth.

The Thai labor department is pretty strong. Any large company is abiding labor laws and paying overtime for every hor over eight in a day. 

 

Without low wages, Thailand would not attract the multinational businesses they do. 

 

2 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

One of my very first visions of Thailand 21 years ago, and one I'm sure many here will have also witnessed- was a young man with no legs pulling himself along the pavement on Sukhumvit Rd, Bangkok. He was on on a piece of what looked like cardboard but it must have been something stronger. At the very same moment, the slow moving traffic allowed me a glance of a passing huge chauffer driven Mercedes Benz with a middle aged Hi-So woman sitting in the back, dripping with gold.  For a moment, the woman was directly in line with the poor guy on the board and I just thought, what a contrast, what sort of a country is this?

 

You saw a chauffer driven Mercedes on Sukhumvit with back windows you could see into? 

 

 

2 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Those who object to an increase in the minimum wage should maybe give some thought to the fact that for many - 300 baht per day = 30 baht an hour. I don't even think its possible to buy 2 coffees in Starbucks for 300 baht now and most Thai's have probably never bought a coffee there.  Yes, people get by on 300 baht but would you want their diet? Have you seen the cuts of meat they think of as normal? Good health should be the right of every Thai citizen, not an aspiration.

 

300/8 = 37.5, not 30. 

 

I oppose the minimum wage because I think it hurts the poor, not because it hurts the rich. 

 

A greedy capitalist that has to pay everyone the same minimum has no interest in hiring an old man, when they can hire a 30-year-old for the same money. 

 

2 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Any increase in the hourly rate will be welcome to most people, I'm sure but I doubt it will come close to covering the cost of living increases seen over the last 2 years.

 

Yes, everyone always wants more money. Our Thai plant used/uses well over twice as much direct labor as our California plant building the same products with mostly the same equipment.

[Yellowtail]

3 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

One of my very first visions of Thailand 21 years ago, and one I'm sure many here will have also witnessed- was a young man with no legs pulling himself along the pavement on Sukhumvit Rd, Bangkok. He was on on a piece of what looked like cardboard but it must have been something stronger.

 

I travelled with a carnival from '76-'88. We had a guy with no legs that walked on his arms and had a big leather pad/shoe. He made good money working that bally of the girl that changes into a gorilla show. He was a good talker, and you would never know he had no leg unless you saw him walking around. 

 

I was a re-entry student and went to university when I was 35 after severing a foot. 

[scottiejohn]

24 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

I travelled with a carnival from '76-'88. We had a guy with no legs that walked on his arms and had a big leather pad/shoe. He made good money working that bally of the girl that changes into a gorilla show. He was a good talker, and you would never know he had no leg unless you saw him walking around. 

 

I was a re-entry student and went to university when I was 35 after severing a foot. 

Which foot of the guy with no legs were you?

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Which foot of the guy with no legs were you?

Making fun of cripples, real classy. 

[CartagenaWarlock]

On 12/10/2023 at 3:51 PM, 2baht said:

When the top 1% control 66% of the country's wealth, what would you expect! You would be fooled to think Buddha encouraged greed! 

Is it not the same thing throughout the world? No wonder people have to travel 10,000 miles to live like refugees in a foreign land, possibly using a "wify" visa, even though they are lucky enough to earn dollars.

[2baht]

15 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

Is it not the same thing throughout the world? No wonder people have to travel 10,000 miles to live like refugees in a foreign land, possibly using a "wify" visa, even though they are lucky enough to earn dollars.

I have no idea what you are talking about, please translate! 

[MangoKorat]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

You saw a chauffer driven Mercedes on Sukhumvit with back windows you could see into? 

Yes I did.  I don't think tinted window film was so popular in those days but whatever, this one didn't have them.

[MangoKorat]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Without low wages, Thailand would not attract the multinational businesses they do. 

Some of what I've seen is nothing short of modern day slavery.

[Chris Daley]

Hello smiley.  Using a long zoom makes it look like you have more friends.  Good idea.

[MangoKorat]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

300/8 = 37.5, not 30.

Most of the Thai's I know that work in factories work 10 hours per day but in any case, let's not fight over 7.5 baht.

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

A greedy capitalist that has to pay everyone the same minimum has no interest in hiring an old man, when they can hire a 30-year-old for the same money. 

Then that capitalist needs to wake up and discover the facts (documented from research in other countries) - in many positions, there can in advantages in employing older people.

 

https://ageing-better.org.uk/blogs/older-workers-are-solution-not-cause-uks-productivity-problem

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33612506/

 

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20191112-how-the-elderly-can-reinvigorate-the-workforce

 

Not all capitalists are greedy but there are certainly some and possibly the percentage that are is quite high in Thailand - its not the worst country though. However, it is often found that low pay goes hand in hand with serious health and safety issues.

 

In any case, I'm ouuta here now.

Edited December 14, 2023 by MangoKorat

[Yellowtail]

34 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Some of what I've seen is nothing short of modern day slavery.

Right. What company was that?

[Yellowtail]

26 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Most of the Thai's I know that work in factories work 10 hours per day but in any case, let's not fight over 7.5 baht.

Then that capitalist needs to wake up and discover the facts (documented from research in other countries) - in many positions, there can in advantages in employing older people.

 

https://ageing-better.org.uk/blogs/older-workers-are-solution-not-cause-uks-productivity-problem

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33612506/

 

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20191112-how-the-elderly-can-reinvigorate-the-workforce

 

Not all capitalists are greedy but there are certainly some and possibly the percentage that are is quite high in Thailand - its not the worst country though. However, it is often found that low pay goes hand in hand with serious health and safety issues.

 

In any case, I'm ouuta here now.

Yeah, I don't blame you. Go with God Brother. 

[MangoKorat]

23 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Are there people that don't realize they would have nothing without the staff? 

 

An employer that whant to pay less is greedy, but an employee that wants to be paid more is not? 

Missed those 2.

 

1. Yes there are - or at least that's how they behave.

 

2. That depends on how much an employee is worth.  I used to have no problem at all in paying my staff different rates.  Two of my mechanics for example - both were excellent at their job but one was faster than the other, earned me more so I paid him more.  The other wasn't bothered and didn't exactly work slowly but he consistently made me less.  Their basic pay was the same but they had the opportunity to earn more through bonuses. The faster one regularly made 50 or more chargeable hours per week from 40 actual and no comebacks.

[Yellowtail]

18 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Missed those 2.

 

1. Yes there are - or at least that's how they behave.

There are employees that do not realize they would not have an income without an employer, even if they are self-employed - or at least that's how they behave. 

18 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

 

2. That depends on how much an employee is worth.  I used to have no problem at all in paying my staff different rates.  Two of my mechanics for example - both were excellent at their job but one was faster than the other, earned me more so I paid him more.  The other wasn't bothered and didn't exactly work slowly but he consistently made me less.  Their basic pay was the same but they had the opportunity to earn more through bonuses. The faster one regularly made 50 or more chargeable hours per week from 40 actual and no comebacks.

 

At the same time you support a minimum wage, you indicate that even doing the same job, one person is worth more to the employer than another. 

 

 

[Longwood50]

Yes since raising the minimum wage has "no impact" on prices or demand for products I say we raise the minimum wage to 5,000 baht an hour.  Why should anyone be poor when the solution to just increase the minimum wage is such a simple one and has absolutely no impact on a company's desire to hire workers, their hours, or move more quickly towards automation. 

I also support giving each of these minimum wage employees one goose that lays golden eggs.