800.000 Baht account after I die - can the partner access the account

[sangtip2]

On 1/19/2024 at 8:27 PM, msbkk said:

If a person dies, normally nobody can legally withdraw funds without a legal will of the deceased person except if it is a joint account. A power of attorney ends with the death of the account owner. At least this is my understanding.

If it is a joint account can the surviving person access the account.     I ask this at my bank and the answer was "Come in and transfer the money as quick as you can"  which tell me that if the bank knows one of the account holders has died the account will be locked until a court rules on it.

[JimGant]

On 1/20/2024 at 3:45 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

fraud/theft of assets from estates

 

Oh my. My bank account for Immigration, thus single owner, has my wife as co-signator, meaning only my name is indicated as account owner, but her signature is visible thru UV light. As co-signator, she can have her own ATM card, and she can march into the bank with my passbook and withdraw as much as she likes. Upon my death, this power, like power of attorney, probably dies. But since no one in the bank would know I'm dead (why would they, since no one, including my wife, is required to tell them -- and the police certainly aren't going to collect my passbook from my wife), she could still functionally withdraw. Or she could go online, and do a transfer from my account to hers.

 

Illegal? Maybe -- but since she's the sole beneficiary in my Will of that bank account, and is the executor -- who's the aggrieved party to file a complaint? The only aggrieved parties are the slimy lawyers denied their exorbitant probate fees. And the bank manager's liability? Absolutely none, as she has no liability unless notified of the death, and then the obligation to freeze the account sets in. Yes, the lawyer mafia, greedy for probate fees, have gotten a lot of bank managers scared about releasing funds without a probate release, including, sadly, Amphur Wills, which in the old days were the poor man's escape from lawyer fees, in preparation and probate. Fortunately, my small town bank manager has told us, with a wink and a nod, to just come and collect the deceased's bank assets -- she apparently doesn't care too much for lawyers either.

 

No, this subject pops up on this forum frequently, including the chance that misinformed bank managers might even freeze joint accounts. My bank manager has said this is absolutely not the case, so I'll probably not clean that account out, should the wife die. But, maybe next year a new bank manager......

 

Hey, the high cost of probate, and the time consuming execution of it, certainly makes one look for workarounds. And if your Will has your wife/partner as sole beneficiary, and you have no liabilities -- why wouldn't you use the workaround I just described? Just who is going to press charges -- the lawyer mafia? That would be interesting, and ludicrous.

[lopburi3]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

and the police certainly aren't going to collect my passbook from my wife)

Actually that will be the first step - police will return it to your Embassy from my understanding.

[JimGant]

On 1/20/2024 at 4:04 PM, Mike Lister said:

Don't mean to be a prude but if it's not legal, please leave it unsaid

 

Oh, come on Mike. If it's practical, like the person getting your bank funds is your sole beneficiary; you have no outstanding debts; and there's no one standing in the wings who could possibly complain -- why not cut the lawyers and their fees out of the loop. And recommended by your bank manager (in this case, mine)? Sounds like another thread of yours, where you say you're legally required to file a tax return if you have 120k in assessable income, even tho' you have no taxable income, and therefore are not subject to fines or penalties. I'll go with the practical, over the legal in both these situations -- particularly if there are no penalties involved.

[JimGant]

20 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Actually that will be the first step - police will return it to your Embassy from my understanding

 

Makes no sense. Yes, they need to make a copy of your passport, as they're required to report your death to your embassy. But your bank passbook? Would that be your joint account passbook also? Highly doubtful -- unless the lawyer mafia has done an end around...to make sure probates don't slip away.

[lungbing]

33 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Actually that will be the first step - police will return it to your Embassy from my understanding.

+Far be it for me to even attempt to correct you, but the poster said 'passbook"  not "passport".  Why would your embassy want your bank passbook?

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Illegal? Maybe -- but since she's the sole beneficiary in my Will of that bank account, and is the executor -- who's the aggrieved party to file a complaint?

Anyone who wants to claim that they are also a beneficiary, that's who! 

A will isn't necessarily the be all and end all that's why the estates of the deceased have to be administered legally and if she is, indeed, appointed the administrator, then she gets access to the account. 

 

It's very simple, there are two ways to do it, the legal way and the illegal way, potential beneficiaries can choose and accept any possible consequences.

[Liquorice]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Oh my. My bank account for Immigration, thus single owner, has my wife as co-signator, meaning only my name is indicated as account owner, but her signature is visible thru UV light. As co-signator, she can have her own ATM card, and she can march into the bank with my passbook and withdraw as much as she likes. Upon my death, this power, like power of attorney, probably dies. But since no one in the bank would know I'm dead (why would they, since no one, including my wife, is required to tell them -- and the police certainly aren't going to collect my passbook from my wife), she could still functionally withdraw. Or she could go online, and do a transfer from my account to hers.

Absolutely spot on, Jim.
You sign the bank's power of attorney to add your spouse as a co-signature.
Only your name appears on the account for Immigration purposes.

In our case, the wife does have an ATM card for the Savings account.

 

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Illegal? Maybe -- but since she's the sole beneficiary in my Will of that bank account, and is the executor -- who's the aggrieved party to file a complaint? The only aggrieved parties are the slimy lawyers denied their exorbitant probate fees. And the bank manager's liability? Absolutely none, as she has no liability unless notified of the death, and then the obligation to freeze the account sets in.

If your wife is a co-signature and a Will is in place naming her as the beneficiary, it is maybe unorthodox, but not illegal, as under Thai law even without a Will your wife is the beneficiary.
A spouse has never been prosecuted for withdrawing or transferring what is legally hers prior to notifying the bank of the death.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

I'll go with the practical, over the legal in both these situations -- particularly if there are no penalties involved.

There sure could be penalties if it turns out that the assets were distributed incorrectly and illegally (which is called fraud)!

Edited January 25 by Liverpool Lou

[Liquorice]

5 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Anyone who wants to claim that they are also a beneficiary, that's who! 

And a simple clause in a Will can sort that out.
This is Thailand. Under the laws of ascension in the event of death of a spouse, the surviving spouse is the automatic heir.

[Liverpool Lou]

3 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

Absolutely spot on, Jim.
You sign the bank's power of attorney to add your spouse as a co-signature.
Only your name appears on the account for Immigration purposes.

In our case, the wife does have an ATM card for the Savings account.

Not quite "spot on"...POAs cease on the death of the donor.

[Liverpool Lou]

5 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

A spouse has never been prosecuted for withdrawing or transferring what is legally hers prior to notifying the bank of the death.

Obviously not, people are prosecuted for doing illegal things, not legal acts.

[Liverpool Lou]

4 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

12 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Anyone who wants to claim that they are also a beneficiary, that's who! 

And a simple clause in a Will can sort that out.
 

Wills can be contested and a court can decide on the share of the assets.

[scorecard]

On 1/22/2024 at 12:13 PM, Hokeus said:

Adding to my previous post above, a beneficiary named on an account prevents the need for any probate, wills, court judgements, etc. All that is required from the named beneficiary is a death certificate in order to claim the funds from the bank. 
 

The beneficiary option may also be available at some other banks in Thailand too besides UOB, but I haven't really looked into it. I know that Bangkok Bank doesn't offer it though as I did inquire with them previously. 

 

But perhaps this should all be checked to ensure it is legal.

 

"...a beneficiary named on an account prevents the need for any probate, wills, court judgements, etc. ..."

 

Is that correct at law? Or just your assumption?

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Oh, come on Mike. If it's practical, like the person getting your bank funds is your sole beneficiary; you have no outstanding debts; and there's no one standing in the wings who could possibly complain -- why not cut the lawyers and their fees out of the loop. And recommended by your bank manager (in this case, mine)? Sounds like another thread of yours, where you say you're legally required to file a tax return if you have 120k in assessable income, even tho' you have no taxable income, and therefore are not subject to fines or penalties. I'll go with the practical, over the legal in both these situations -- particularly if there are no penalties involved.

Oh come on Jim......I can't go there, we're a commercial site and we have a responsibility to our sponsors. I have to recommend the legal approach but what individuals do is up to them.

[Liquorice]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Not quite "spot on"...POAs cease on the death of the donor.

The Thai Inheritance laws don't.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

There sure could be penalties if it turns out that the assets were distributed incorrectly and illegally (which is called fraud)!

 

Well, Lou, I guess you won't rest easily unless your wife goes through probate. Also sounds like maybe there's someone out there that might contest the Will. Fortunately, I don't have that problem.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Oh come on Jim......I can't go there, we're a commercial site and we have a responsibility to our sponsors. I have to recommend the legal approach

 

Ok. Just allow some counter arguments that the readers can chew on.

[Liquorice]

On 1/19/2024 at 7:54 PM, hkt83100 said:

A long time ago I read about this problem, but I lost the text due to a disk crash. Someone mentioned the name of the form to fill out at the bank. It was not power of attorney. The problem is the account has to be in a single name, but how can a partner get the money from the account? I remember there was a English and a Thai term for it...

Thanks for any hint in the right direction.

By partner, I assume you are unmarried.

In the case of a partner, firstly you should make a Will making them the beneficiary.

 

A good friend was diagnosed with terminal cancer last year, living with an unmarried partner and wanted to leave all his assets to her, which included funds in his Thai savings account and 800K in a Fixed term account. I drafted a Will in English then had it translated to Thai, both were then signed by Thai witnesses, attaching copies of their Tabien Baan and ID cards. She was named as the beneficiary whilst I was named as the Executor.

Sadly, he passed away in October last year. I advised his Embassy of his death and contact details for his family, who I'd already been in contact with.
I knew his partner required a Court order to release funds in his bank account, so approached the Courts.
They advised me a solicitor had to submit an application for a hearing. I approached a recommended solicitor, who advised his fee was 3,000 BHT.

We had an appointment for a hearing within 2 weeks.
At the hearing the judges, who had previously been supplied copies of the Will granted the order, but it's held for 30 days to allow anyone who wishes to contest the Will to do so, before being released to the solicitor. 30 days later they released the order, which his partner took to the bank, who then transferred funds from both his accounts to her account.

The whole process took 6 weeks.

 

**Statement removed by Moderation**.

 

I may add, something I wasn't previously aware of, is that when a foreigner passes in Thailand a cremation cannot proceed without a letter from his Embassy authorising the Wat to carry out the cremation. The Embassy contact his next of kin to ensure they have no objections, before issuing the letter. 

[Liquorice]

3 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Wills can be contested and a court can decide on the share of the assets.

They can, but where there is a legal heir by law, they are unlikely to succeed, unless a Will names someone other than who would be entitled to it under Thailand's law of ascension.

 

Like @JimGant I have a Savings and Fixed term account where my wife is added as a co-signature to both accounts.
She also has a debit card for the Savings account.

You are correct that a POA cease on the death of the donor.

 

My wife is rightful heir to my estate under Thai law, but I also made a Will naming her as the beneficiary.
According to the bank, on production of my Passport, Will and her ID, funds would be release to her without a Court order being required, because by law she is the rightful heir.
There would be no repercussions if she withdrew funds from the Savings account to pay cremation expenses, as again she is the legal heir under the law.

 

The bank even informed their advice to the spouse of a deceased Thai, is if you know their pin, withdraw any funds before you officially notify us of the death.

 

It's different in the case of an unmarried partner, who would be committing fraud by withdrawing funds until the law establishes who is entitled to an estate.

[Mike Lister]

7 hours ago, Liquorice said:

By partner, I assume you are unmarried.

In the case of a partner, firstly you should make a Will making them the beneficiary.

 

A good friend was diagnosed with terminal cancer last year, living with an unmarried partner and wanted to leave all his assets to her, which included funds in his Thai savings account and 800K in a Fixed term account. I drafted a Will in English then had it translated to Thai, both were then signed by Thai witnesses, attaching copies of their Tabien Baan and ID cards. She was named as the beneficiary whilst I was named as the Executor.

Sadly, he passed away in October last year. I advised his Embassy of his death and contact details for his family, who I'd already been in contact with.
I knew his partner required a Court order to release funds in his bank account, so approached the Courts.
They advised me a solicitor had to submit an application for a hearing. I approached a recommended solicitor, who advised his fee was 3,000 BHT.

We had an appointment for a hearing within 2 weeks.
At the hearing the judges, who had previously been supplied copies of the Will granted the order, but it's held for 30 days to allow anyone who wishes to contest the Will to do so, before being released to the solicitor. 30 days later they released the order, which his partner took to the bank, who then transferred funds from both his accounts to her account.

The whole process took 6 weeks.

 

Probate is only involved where there is no Will or direct heir by law, or the Will is contested.

 

I may add, something I wasn't previously aware of, is that when a foreigner passes in Thailand a cremation cannot proceed without a letter from his Embassy authorising the Wat to carry out the cremation. The Embassy contact his next of kin to ensure they have no objections, before issuing the letter. 

The statement in bold above is incorrect and has been removed from the post, in order to prevent confusion amongst new comers to the thread:

 

"According to the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand - the law that governs succession and estate administration - when a person passes away with or without a will and his/her heirs or an interested person wish to transfer, inherit or administer the estate of the decedent, that person must file a petition with the court requesting to be an estate administrator".

 

However:

 

"It should be noted that the process of appointing an estate administrator is not required if there is no impediment to acquiring the estate of the decedent. For example, if a bank allows an heir to withdraw a small amount of money deposited in the decedent's bank account (usually THB 50,000 or less), it is likely that a court order appointing an estate administrator will not be needed. However, if an heir or a beneficiary wishes to inherit a piece of land that belonged to the decedent, a court order will definitely be required when transferring the ownership of the land".

 

Rarely in Thailand is there ever one hard and fast rule that applies to everyone, everywhere. I believe that what this thread has established is that there is a requirement in law for all wills, involving non-trivial amounts, to go through Probate but that sometimes that may be not always be necessary, depending on the relationship of the beneficiary to the deceased, the sums involved, the bank in question and the location. Where the sums involved are not large, the need for a court order may not be necessary. Where the beneficiary is the spouse, the location is more rural and the parties are well known to bank staff, the likelihood of an expedited process is greater, but is not guaranteed. It should also be made clear that this type of policy varies from bank to bank, UOB (Thai) for example requires a court order in the event of death of any account holder.

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/legal_services/probate-and-estate-administration.php#:~:text=As Thailand does not have,time of his%2Fher death.

[lopburi3]

12 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Makes no sense. Yes, they need to make a copy of your passport, as they're required to report your death to your embassy. But your bank passbook? Would that be your joint account passbook also? Highly doubtful -- unless the lawyer mafia has done an end around...to make sure probates don't slip away.

Reading wrong - sorry - read as passport rather than passbook.  

[Mike Lister]

A baiting post has been removed, posters should consider if they really wish to continue in the same mode.

[Henryford]

On 1/20/2024 at 1:51 PM, Mike Lister said:

The going rate for Thai lawyer to process a will through probate court, for a foreigner, is around 30k baht currently, on northern Thailand.

That's why, if possible, all assets should be transferred before you die. If you moved from the 800k in bank to 65k a month transfer then all your assets could be transferred.

Edited January 26 by Henryford

[Liquorice]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

"According to the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand - the law that governs succession and estate administration - when a person passes away with or without a will and his/her heirs or an interested person wish to transfer, inherit or administer the estate of the decedent, that person must file a petition with the court requesting to be an estate administrator".

I had no interest in his estate and therefore did not need to file a petition. The Court and bank acknowledged me as the executor of the Will.

 

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

"It should be noted that the process of appointing an estate administrator is not required if there is no impediment to acquiring the estate of the decedent. For example, if a bank allows an heir to withdraw a small amount of money deposited in the decedent's bank account (usually THB 50,000 or less), it is likely that a court order appointing an estate administrator will not be needed. However, if an heir or a beneficiary wishes to inherit a piece of land that belonged to the decedent, a court order will definitely be required when transferring the ownership of the land".

In this case, the beneficiary of the Will was not an automatic heir, having no relation to the deceased, other than an unmarried partner.

I agree a Court order is required for transfer of land, but as you are aware a foreigner cannot own land, so in the context where we discuss the foreigners' estate, that would include personal possessions, bank accounts and vehicles, but certainly not land.

 

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Rarely in Thailand is there ever one hard and fast rule that applies to everyone, everywhere. I believe that what this thread has established is that there is a requirement in law for all wills, involving non-trivial amounts, to go through Probate but that sometimes that may be not always be necessary, depending on the relationship of the beneficiary to the deceased, the sums involved, the bank in question and the location. Where the sums involved are not large, the need for a court order may not be necessary. Where the beneficiary is the spouse, the location is more rural and the parties are well known to bank staff, the likelihood of an expedited process is greater, but is not guaranteed. It should also be made clear that this type of policy varies from bank to bank, UOB (Thai) for example requires a court order in the event of death of any account holder.

I'd agree in principle with that overview, each situation is different, however having been involved with the affairs of 3 foreigners who passed away, not a single case went to probate. This may be down to the fact written Wills were in place and no parties contested the Wills.

[Liquorice]

A friend oof the wife who is a lawyer in Bangkok, supplied me with a copy of a very comprehensive draft Will, where you can fill in the blanks or omit sections not relevant to your situation.

She also noted there should be two Thai witness that sign the Will, along with copies of their Tabien Baan and ID card.

 

If anyone would like a copy of this draft Will, please send me a PM.

Edited January 26 by Liquorice

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

I had no interest in his estate and therefore did not need to file a petition. The Court and bank acknowledged me as the executor of the Will.

 

In this case, the beneficiary of the Will was not an automatic heir, having no relation to the deceased, other than an unmarried partner.

I agree a Court order is required for transfer of land, but as you are aware a foreigner cannot own land, so in the context where we discuss the foreigners' estate, that would include personal possessions, bank accounts and vehicles, but certainly not land.

 

I'd agree in principle with that overview, each situation is different, however having been involved with the affairs of 3 foreigners who passed away, not a single case went to probate. This may be down to the fact written Wills were in place and no parties contested the Wills.

All well and good. But foreigners are allowed to inherit land that is willed to them by a spouse, albeit they must dispose of it within one year.

[Liquorice]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

All well and good. But foreigners are allowed to inherit land that is willed to them by a spouse, albeit they must dispose of it within one year.

Aware of that. The law provides an interim period for the foreigner to elect a Thai to be named on the Chanote, usually a family member, but I would further advise in these situations the foreigner should confide in a solicitor regarding a usufruct, superficies or right of habitation to protect his right to live in the house on the land.

[jayceenik]

On 1/19/2024 at 8:53 PM, Moonlover said:

Surely a simple will naming your wife as the sole beneficiary and executor should cover this situation. Make sure the account number is clearly stated in the document.

 

There may well be other documents that the bank will require, almost certainly a copy of your death certificate.

Indeed. A few years back after I thought I'd like to have a long time relationship with a girl I met in Pattaya I went to a local lawyer and made a proper Testament-Last Will and made her sole beneficiary of all I had in TH. It included everything: the 800k+ bank account, my motorcycle and everything i had in my apt. Cost me 10k

We eventually got married in her village and I have a happy life with her. That Will is thus now redundant but TW says to keep it as it could make getting the bank money for her quicker.

 

[Liverpool Lou]

11 hours ago, Liquorice said:

The bank even informed their advice to the spouse of a deceased Thai, is if you know their pin, withdraw any funds before you officially notify us of the death.

Wonder why?  Perhaps the bank knows that what they are recommending does not comply with the law!  Why not ask your bank to put that in writing to you on bank letterhead, then watch the manager squirm.   If he does give you an official confirmation/instruction, then post it, redacted, here!