Nato has to steel itself for Russian strikes on targets across Europe

[Morch]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Even Britain has been running the military down since BAOR ended. Can't imagine any of the EU nations, except possibly France having one capable of winning against Russia without nukes, and then it's MAD.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

But they will not be fighting individually. That's just you making up stuff, rehashing Russian propaganda talking points.

Edited February 1 by Morch

[LosLobo]

13 hours ago, johng said:

So they have been attacking since 2014 as I stated ?

You''ll find this interesting:

                                            How the Ukraine War Really Started in 2014

 

 

[retarius]

I expect when they come, the strikes will come thick and fast and accompanied by thousands of drones to defend against local air defences. Welcome to WW3 brought to you any NATO.

[rabas]

46 minutes ago, retarius said:

I expect when they come, the strikes will come thick and fast and accompanied by thousands of drones to defend against local air defences. Welcome to WW3 brought to you any NATO.

 

You may like to see this before counting your Russian chickens. Also note Russia is hopelessly behind the West in computers, drones, and AI software to control them.  

 

Item   -   NATO  -   Russia. 

Total military personnel	5,817,100	1,330,900
Active soldiers	3,358,000	830,900
Reserve forces	1,720,700	250,000
Paramilitary units	738,400	250,000
Air Force	-	-
Total aircraft	20,633	4,182
Fighters / interceptors	3,398	773
Ground attack aircraft	1,108	744
Transport aircraft	1,506	444
Special aircraft ( recon.)	970	147
Tanker aircraft	615	19
Total helicopters	8,614	1,531
Combat helicopters	1,439	537
Ground combat vehicles	-	-
Main battle tanks	12,408	12,566
Armored vehicles	1,004,844	151,641
Self-propelled artillery	4,532	6,575
Tower artillery	6,554	4,336
Self-propelled rocket launchers	3,272	3,887
Naval forces	-	-
Total military ships	2,151	598
Destroyers	112	15
Frigates	135	11
Corvettes	55	86
Helicopter Carriers	13	0
Aircraft carriers	16	1
Submarines	143	70
Patrol boats	295	59
Minesweepers	151	49

source

 

Edited February 1 by rabas

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, rabas said:

 

You may like to see this before counting your Russian chickens. Also note Russia is hopelessly behind the West in computers, drones, and AI software to control them.  

 

Item   -   NATO  -   Russia. 

Total military personnel	5,817,100	1,330,900
Active soldiers	3,358,000	830,900
Reserve forces	1,720,700	250,000
Paramilitary units	738,400	250,000
Air Force	-	-
Total aircraft	20,633	4,182
Fighters / interceptors	3,398	773
Ground attack aircraft	1,108	744
Transport aircraft	1,506	444
Special aircraft ( recon.)	970	147
Tanker aircraft	615	19
Total helicopters	8,614	1,531
Combat helicopters	1,439	537
Ground combat vehicles	-	-
Main battle tanks	12,408	12,566
Armored vehicles	1,004,844	151,641
Self-propelled artillery	4,532	6,575
Tower artillery	6,554	4,336
Self-propelled rocket launchers	3,272	3,887
Naval forces	-	-
Total military ships	2,151	598
Destroyers	112	15
Frigates	135	11
Corvettes	55	86
Helicopter Carriers	13	0
Aircraft carriers	16	1
Submarines	143	70
Patrol boats	295	59
Minesweepers	151	49

source

 

It's all a bit pointless making lists, as any NATO vs Russia conflict is almost certainly going MAD.

Frankly, I don't think Putin is that insane and IMO it's all sabre rattling by some NATO cold warriors trying to make themselves seem important.

[ozimoron]

55 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's all a bit pointless making lists, as any NATO vs Russia conflict is almost certainly going MAD.

Frankly, I don't think Putin is that insane and IMO it's all sabre rattling by some NATO cold warriors trying to make themselves seem important.

 

No. to imagine there will never be a conflict because they are both nuclear powers or that if they have a conflict then it necessarily will result in a nuclear war is a false assumption.

[beautifulthailand99]

On 1/30/2024 at 3:45 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

Oh, the sabre rattling is getting louder by the day.

 

I'm absolutely sure that in their minds Russia is getting ready to commit mass suicide by launching an attack on Europe. I'm also absolutely sure that they are demented.

It's ludicrous in the extreme and merely a ploy to continue persuading western electorates to choose guns over butter and functioning pensions and health care system. Putin may be bad but he's certainly not mad.

[beautifulthailand99]

Since Russia is on the brink of getting its agent into place as President of the mightiest nation on earth I wouldn't write it off just yet.

[johng]

On 2/1/2024 at 6:19 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

What tapes?

 

Don't know   ask the @ozimoron

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, johng said:

 

Don't know   ask the @ozimoron

 

It's ok, play cute.

[sirineou]

On 1/30/2024 at 9:40 PM, KhunLA said:

Aside from the fact, it's never going to happen ... IMHO

... no idiot (Putin is not) is going to attempt to fight 2 fronts/enemies at the same time.

 

No reason, no positive, nothing to gain from it.  It's just ridiculous to even suggest it.

Regardless of the western narrative, Putin might be many things, but one thing he is not, is stupid. You don't attain and maintain his position in Russian politics by being stupid. 

Why would Putin attack Europe? One needs to ask themselves. What does he have to gain, and lose? 

Some people are so devoid of critical thinking , that the obvious eludes them. 

The reasons that caused him to invade have been mitigated, That adjectives accomplished. 

He shut down the southern corridor. Any invasion , or threat of invasion would now have t be done through the The Suwałki Gap between Kaliningrad and  Belarus   which I think is 65 Km wide. 

What additional reasons exist that would cause him to risk losing his gains?

People would say, "But why would the west invade Russia" 

One does not have to use the sword of Damocles, one only has to hung it over one's head to extract concessions. 

[retarius]

20 hours ago, rabas said:

 

You may like to see this before counting your Russian chickens. Also note Russia is hopelessly behind the West in computers, drones, and AI software to control them.  

 

Item   -   NATO  -   Russia. 

Total military personnel	5,817,100	1,330,900
Active soldiers	3,358,000	830,900
Reserve forces	1,720,700	250,000
Paramilitary units	738,400	250,000
Air Force	-	-
Total aircraft	20,633	4,182
Fighters / interceptors	3,398	773
Ground attack aircraft	1,108	744
Transport aircraft	1,506	444
Special aircraft ( recon.)	970	147
Tanker aircraft	615	19
Total helicopters	8,614	1,531
Combat helicopters	1,439	537
Ground combat vehicles	-	-
Main battle tanks	12,408	12,566
Armored vehicles	1,004,844	151,641
Self-propelled artillery	4,532	6,575
Tower artillery	6,554	4,336
Self-propelled rocket launchers	3,272	3,887
Naval forces	-	-
Total military ships	2,151	598
Destroyers	112	15
Frigates	135	11
Corvettes	55	86
Helicopter Carriers	13	0
Aircraft carriers	16	1
Submarines	143	70
Patrol boats	295	59
Minesweepers	151	49

source

 

The only count that matters is nuclear warheads. 

[beautifulthailand99]

4 hours ago, johng said:

 

Don't know   ask the @ozimoron

Could be the rumoured Trump golden showers kopromat said to have been taken on the Obama bed in Moscow. Which if true explains some of the hold that Putin has over him.

[Morch]

13 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's all a bit pointless making lists, as any NATO vs Russia conflict is almost certainly going MAD.

Frankly, I don't think Putin is that insane and IMO it's all sabre rattling by some NATO cold warriors trying to make themselves seem important.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Just a few posts up topic, you brought up no single NATO nation can go toe to toe with Russia. It was pointed out that this is exactly what NATO is about - countries will not be fighting solo. A list was provided to demonstrate that.

 

Suddenly, lists are 'a bit pointless'.

Funny, that.

 

[Morch]

6 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

It's ludicrous in the extreme and merely a ploy to continue persuading western electorates to choose guns over butter and functioning pensions and health care system. Putin may be bad but he's certainly not mad.

 

Wasn't it Putin who chose guns over butter and functioning pensions, healthcare system?

[Morch]

4 hours ago, retarius said:

The only count that matters is nuclear warheads. 

 

@retarius

 

When it suits.

Other times it can be boasting about Russia this or Russia that.

As for nuclear warheads, what's the Russia vs. Ukraine count? By the above 'rationale' the war should have been long over by now, with Ukraine either a wasteland or part of Greater Russia.

[beautifulthailand99]

15 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Wasn't it Putin who chose guns over butter and functioning pensions, healthcare system?

He did much to the chagrin of his assembled oligarchs. I have great sympathy for Ukraine all of this would have been better it had never happened and we all try to get along peacefully. But here we are. I don't buy the belief that Putin is the new Hitler and he presents an existential threat to the west. Its abundantly clear now to even the dimmest he would never attack NATO and he is happy to keep his beef as to what he sees as his fraternal brothers which is Ukraine. And it's clear that we won't put boots on the ground nor have sufficient military kit to enable the Ukrainians to finish the job. So to continue to put more petrol on the fire is to prolong the suffering to achieve the same outcome on the end. Another by product of this is Russia has now permanently pivoted and as the largest country in the world with the most natural resources to China and the global south who care not a jot for our moralising. I have mentioned before that the Pentagon's think tank the Rand Corporation snuck out a report early last year outlining various scenarios as to end this war not all putting Ukrainian agency as the primary concern. Its now time to dust this off and begin a process to end the war as unpalatable that is to many. 

 

https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PEA2510-1.html

Edited February 2 by beautifulthailand99

[beautifulthailand99]

This is a very interesting article causing considerable controversy amongst the Ukrainian maximalists for its unvarnished portrayal of life inside the country. Understandably a lot of folks are just tired of war and want it to end. https://t.co/0R9hPNnPjt

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

He did much to the chagrin of his assembled oligarchs. I have great sympathy for Ukraine all of this would have been better it had never happened and we all try to get along peacefully. But here we are. I don't buy the belief that Putin is the new Hitler and he presents an existential threat to the west. Its abundantly clear now to even the dimmest he would never attack NATO and he is happy to keep his beef as to what he sees as his fraternal brothers which is Ukraine. And it's clear that we won't put boots on the ground nor have sufficient military kit to enable the Ukrainians to finish the job. So to continue to put more petrol on the fire is to prolong the suffering to achieve the same outcome on the end. Another by product of this is Russia has now permanently pivoted and as the largest country in the world with the most natural resources to China and the global south who care not a jot for our moralising. I have mentioned before that the Pentagon's think tank the Rand Corporation snuck out a report early last year outlining various scenarios as to end this war not all putting Ukrainian agency as the primary concern. Its now time to dust this off and begin a process to end the war as unpalatable that is to many. 

 

Never said anything about Putin being anything like Hitler. Most of them Nazi references are lame, anyway, regardless of what they relate to. That said - Putin and Russia are a threat to Europe. If you don't want to accept that, you'll have to make do with a whole lot of governments, representing a whole lot of people feeling very differently about it.

 

I don't know what is 'obvious' to you, but I do no it is not 'obvious' to anyone - that would be you co-opting some general faux agreement. And Putin does not need to directly attack NATO head on. A crisis here, a crisis there. Walking that fine line, checking boundaries, exploiting rifts and so on.

 

Russia might turn out to be China vassal, in the long run. That's still a ways away. I'm sure you had some cunning plan to divert it to a more pro-Western attitude. Maybe this would have involved 'sacrificing' Ukraine or some other piece of appeasement. But in reality, Putin was not going to be anyone's best friend and partner.

 

Think tanks are a dime a dozen, reports are cheaper.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

This is a very interesting article causing considerable controversy amongst the Ukrainian maximalists for its unvarnished portrayal of life inside the country. Understandably a lot of folks are just tired of war and want it to end. https://t.co/0R9hPNnPjt

 

It's an column by Masha Gessen....

 

 

[beautifulthailand99]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

It's an column by Masha Gessen....

 

 

And.... she has been there and spoke at first hand with a variety of sources. A lot of the criticism is from folks outside the country taken umbrage that a Russian speaking journalist should deal in anything other than propaganda. A lot of journalists have forgotten their role is to speak truth to power not be a pr agency for the state department. RIP John Pilger.

[beautifulthailand99]

19 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Never said anything about Putin being anything like Hitler. Most of them Nazi references are lame, anyway, regardless of what they relate to. That said - Putin and Russia are a threat to Europe. If you don't want to accept that, you'll have to make do with a whole lot of governments, representing a whole lot of people feeling very differently about it.

 

I don't know what is 'obvious' to you, but I do no it is not 'obvious' to anyone - that would be you co-opting some general faux agreement. And Putin does not need to directly attack NATO head on. A crisis here, a crisis there. Walking that fine line, checking boundaries, exploiting rifts and so on.

 

Russia might turn out to be China vassal, in the long run. That's still a ways away. I'm sure you had some cunning plan to divert it to a more pro-Western attitude. Maybe this would have involved 'sacrificing' Ukraine or some other piece of appeasement. But in reality, Putin was not going to be anyone's best friend and partner.

 

Think tanks are a dime a dozen, reports are cheaper.

Well if you won't read the report you will never know. They make a point of saying that US interests are different from Ukraine and that the relief of sanctions can be tools to delivering an uneasy end to hostilities. Currently it is thought that 700k men have fled the country many to join their refugee partners and children who will probably never return that and further mobilisation will cripple what's left of the economy. An election would be helpful as well as a ceasefire and then let's take it from there. Trump is reported he may be minded to continue the war but Europe would have to match the funding dollar for dollar. I'm afraid we're bust and just a bond market strike away from perdition. You picked a good place to sit this out smoke and taxation notwithstanding as did the 100s of thousands of Russians have too.

Edited February 2 by beautifulthailand99

[beautifulthailand99]

It's 2027 Trump is President and Europe's about to be destroyed once again. Buy gold and supplies and learn Russian.  https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-trump-ukraine-war-russia-nato-vladimir-putin/

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

It's 2027 Trump is President and Europe's about to be destroyed once again. Buy gold and supplies and learn Russian.  https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-trump-ukraine-war-russia-nato-vladimir-putin/

You sound positively delighted if that were to happen.

[beautifulthailand99]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

You sound positively delighted if that were to happen.

Your spin not mine. If you can't be bothered to read it and it's a long one it basically suggests that each European country should get its own nukes for its own security. Mankind will destroy itself eventually or at least the alphas will and then retire to their own bunkers in New Zealand.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

And.... she has been there and spoke at first hand with a variety of sources. A lot of the criticism is from folks outside the country taken umbrage that a Russian speaking journalist should deal in anything other than propaganda. A lot of journalists have forgotten their role is to speak truth to power not be a pr agency for the state department. RIP John Pilger.

 

She/he/they/whatever is not so much a reporter as a journalist, or political activist. Not impressed, sorry. Same goes for Pilger, by the way. Same thing. Can cover some things decently, but on others gets into weirdo land.

[Bkk Brian]

48 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Your spin not mine. If you can't be bothered to read it and it's a long one it basically suggests that each European country should get its own nukes for its own security. Mankind will destroy itself eventually or at least the alphas will and then retire to their own bunkers in New Zealand.

Well I have to say that looking back on your recent posts my spin as you call it, or as I call it my take on you, is that it stands

[Morch]

2 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Well if you won't read the report you will never know. They make a point of saying that US interests are different from Ukraine and that the relief of sanctions can be tools to delivering an uneasy end to hostilities. Currently it is thought that 700k men have fled the country many to join their refugee partners and children who will probably never return that and further mobilisation will cripple what's left of the economy. An election would be helpful as well as a ceasefire and then let's take it from there. Trump is reported he may be minded to continue the war but Europe would have to match the funding dollar for dollar. I'm afraid we're bust and just a bond market strike away from perdition. You picked a good place to sit this out smoke and taxation notwithstanding as did the 100s of thousands of Russians have too.

 

You're assuming, of course. But be that as it may, it's not much of debate point to claim the understanding of a single post requires the reading of a chunky report. Rand is conservative thing tank, and their reports would reflect that. I'm sure there's no shortage of other points of view.

 

I don't know who's the 'we' you're talking about. More co-opting?

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/2/2024 at 4:49 PM, johng said:

 

Don't know   ask the @ozimoron

If you don't know, why did you say "Who will release tapes" ?

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/2/2024 at 11:27 PM, beautifulthailand99 said:

It's 2027 Trump is President and Europe's about to be destroyed once again. Buy gold and supplies and learn Russian.  https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-trump-ukraine-war-russia-nato-vladimir-putin/

You were doing so well and then you went and spoiled it with TDS.