Earth where no earth exists, on 12th floor.

[Johnlkuk]

As the title says: is it even possible to create an earth on the 12th floor of a condo block?

 

I recently purchased the condo in an older block (1992 build) and have found issues with the electrics. Apart from there being no earth, there's several circuits that are joined together and protected just by the main breaker. Photo attached

 

An electrician friend of mine was here for a few weeks and the outcome of an assessment was to change the consumer unit, and to  fit the new with individual RCBOs. 

The idea is to buy what I need back in the UK and to bring it all over next time. 

 

Without my friend here to ask right now, I am wondering again about the lack of an earth.

Is it possible to find an earth up here on the 12th floor (all plastic pipework as far as I can see), is it even super-important to have one, or is there another option (I read on this forum about combining the neutral and earth, if that's the right term).

 

[Johnlkuk]

This is the closest to an earth in the whole condo. 

 

[Crossy]

If you can find a place where the building steel is exposed that would likely make a good earth. Have a look above your suspended ceiling, they often hide a multitude of evils.

 

Getting some RCD/RCBO protection is a wise move, even if you have an earth. That should mitigate any actual safety issues.

 

If you are getting tingles off appliances with mains filters then your balcony railing is likely going to be sufficiently earthy to stop them but I wouldn't rely on that as a safety earth.

 

Using the neutral as earth (connect together before any RCD protection) making the supply TNC-S** would work, but there's always a risk that work upstream (such as a meter change) would result in an accidental L-N swap with predictable results. Unless the system is actually intended to be this way I'd explore all other avenues first. 

 

** Many supplies in the UK are like this, but the N-E connection is in the service-head and so before the meter, getting L-N swapped is very unlikely.

[Kinnock]

Not sure you need to buy equipment from UK?  I bought a consumer unit with ELCB from Homepro, and it included fitting.  The guy from Homepro removed the ancient unit with ceramic fuses and fitted the new one.

 

The condo maintenance manager checked the installation after fitting, and said it was OK.  That was about 6 months ago, and I'm still here 😄

 

I had a (cheap Chinese) air fryer short out last month due to over heating and the unit tripped, so it seems to work.  Also used a plug-in socket tester and that indicated it was OK.  

[Johnlkuk]

7 hours ago, Crossy said:

If you can find a place where the building steel is exposed that would likely make a good earth. Have a look above your suspended ceiling, they often hide a multitude of evils.

 

 

Luckily I have the hideous suspended tiled ceilings in the bathroom and kitchen. Not much I can see in the bathroom, which is nearer to the CU, but I found this in the kitchen.

That is if you mean exposed rebar, as it is concrete/block construction. 

 

[Johnlkuk]

8 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

If you are getting tingles off appliances with mains filters then your balcony railing is likely going to be sufficiently earthy to stop them but I wouldn't rely on that as a safety earth.

 

 

My mate had a "tingle" from the metal casing of the microwave when it was first plugged in. 

The plug was pulled and it was ditched straight away. 

This alerted us there was no earthing anywhere. 

 

The balcony balustrades are stone, so not even a possibility of a temporary earth there. 

Edited February 16 by Johnlkuk
Extra info

[Crossy]

That looks pretty promising.

 

Clean it up to bare metal and connect a wire to it (for now just wrap around a few times).

 

I assume you don't have an earth test meter so: -

 

Get a conventional (incandescent) lamp of about 15W. Connect one side of the lamp to your wire.

DAB the other side of the lamp onto a live terminal. If the lamp lights "brightly" then you have a "reasonable" earth

 

If no light, no earth.

 

 

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, Johnlkuk said:

My mate had a "tingle" from the metal casing of the microwave when it was first plugged in. 

The plug was pulled and it was ditched straight away. 

 

Shame, there may well have been nothing wrong with it.

 

Was it connected to an earthed outlet using the correct plug?

 

[Johnlkuk]

10 minutes ago, Crossy said:

That looks pretty promising.

 

Clean it up to bare metal and connect a wire to it (for now just wrap around a few times).

 

I assume you don't have an earth test meter so: -

 

Get a conventional (incandescent) lamp of about 15W. Connect one side of the lamp to your wire.

DAB the other side of the lamp onto a live terminal. If the lamp lights "brightly" then you have a "reasonable" earth

 

If no light, no earth.

 

 

 

 

Bear with me on this, I have limited tools and equipment, even a lamp and holder, but I will test and report back soon

 

[Crossy]

You really need a simple multimeter (even Lotus's have them) and a neon screwdriver.

 

 

[Johnlkuk]

11 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Shame, there may well have been nothing wrong with it.

 

Was it connected to an earthed outlet using the correct plug?

 

 

Yes, I did wonder if I had been a bit hasty throwing it out and it was quite a modern looking Samsung model. 

It was plugged into an old looking socket in the kitchen, which after the heavy rain a few weeks back, popped the main breaker with an almighty bang. I had heard popping prior to this but didn't pinpoint where it was coming from. 

 

It turns out all (3 I believe) circuits from the kitchen, are joined up in the CU and coming from the main breaker. 

 

I've replaced the 2 connected kitchen sockets since and connected them away from any damp. 

[Johnlkuk]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

You really need a simple multimeter (even Lotus's have them) and a neon screwdriver.

 

 

 

Yes sorry, I've got both (not that I know my way around the MM too well). But no lamp/holder etc. 

[Crossy]

Just now, Johnlkuk said:

Yes sorry, I've got both (not that I know my way around the MM too well). But no lamp/holder etc. 

 

Great, that hardest part may well be the incandescent lamp.

Look for the small ones for ovens or fridges.

[Johnlkuk]

3 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Great, that hardest part may well be the incandescent lamp.

Look for the small ones for ovens or fridges.

 

OK, thanks again, and bear with me as I'll keep it safe and pick up a lamp holder and some other bits beforehand. 

I will report back. 

[transam]

14 minutes ago, Johnlkuk said:

 

 

Bear with me on this, I have limited tools and equipment, even a lamp and holder, but I will test and report back soon

 

Mr.DIY, multimeter is less than 200bht, be sure to use the ACV current scare, marked upto 750v..

 

 

[Johnlkuk]

8 hours ago, Kinnock said:

Not sure you need to buy equipment from UK?

 

When he was here, my mate said he had some spare plastic CUs back home that he wouldn't be using as they only fit metal now. 

Pretty sure he suggested a main RCD switch, then individual RCBOs for each circuit. 

When I've looked here it seems the main switch is RCBO and the other smaller ones, not. 

If there was any other issue with the electrics here in my condo, the concern would be the whole lot would trip leaving me with nothing, rather than individual circuits, which could be investigated further. 

Even if the set up he suggested could be bought here, he won't be here to help, and I have limited time to do much on this trip. 

[Crossy]

You wouldn't have a main RCD and also individual ones too.

 

A UK main switch would be an isolator, that would not suit here (there is no DNO fuse here) you need a double-pole MCB.

 

The requirement here is a minimum of a front-end RCBO, but individual ones are of course better.

[carlyai]

 

 

[Johnlkuk]

26 minutes ago, Crossy said:

You wouldn't have a main RCD and also individual ones too.

 

A UK main switch would be an isolator, that would not suit here (there is no DNO fuse here) you need a double-pole MCB.

 

The requirement here is a minimum of a front-end RCBO, but individual ones are of course better.

 

I stand corrected, thank you. 

I wholeheartedly trust what my friend tells me, I just maybe got it slightly wrong 🙄

[Johnlkuk]

 

9 hours ago, Kinnock said:

 

 

Sorry, I'm not quoting again but I can't seem to delete this. 

 

Anyway, some progress. 

No need to go out shopping as my tv cabinet had a bulb and holder etc hiding away at the back of a shelf. Not sure on wattage as its unclear, but success with earthing:

 

1st picture using L and N from socket:

 

 

2nd and 3rd pictures using L from socket and rebar for E/N:

 

 

[Johnlkuk]

Quite dim but I've no sandpaper and it was just a loose connection, but maybe with a better connection, and some daisy-chaining to other exposed metal? 

[Crossy]

Directly on rusty metal, with RCD/RCBO protection I reckon that will be ok.

 

If here are other points you can connect to, then go with them as well.

 

How bright is it directly L-N?

 

[Johnlkuk]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

How bright is it directly L-N?

 

 

Sorry, I don't understand the question. 

The 1st pic is using L and N from the socket. 2nd and 3rd pics are using the rebar. 

 

I looked again but can't see the wattage of the bulb, it looks like it says 220v/230v but no sign of wattage. 

 

[Crossy]

Ah, OK missed that.

So probably about 50% brightness on a bit of rusty re-bar.

 

Clean up properly, see if you can find some other points not too close to the one you have. It's not ideal but a hose (Jubilee) clip will give you a good clamped connection.

 

Link them together with 4mm2 cable and test again.

 

Once you are happy paint all your connections with acrylic paint to prevent corrosion.

 

Whatever happens you are far better than having no earth at all.

 

Get those RCBOs installed!

 

[Johnlkuk]

Thanks Crossy, I really appreciate your help in this. 

[OneMoreFarang]

20 hours ago, Johnlkuk said:

The idea is to buy what I need back in the UK and to bring it all over next time. 

As far as I see you can get all the basic electrical MCBs and RCBOs, etc. here.

But if you want to buy the good things, then buy RCBOs Type A in the UK.

I tried to get them in Thailand, but it seems in Thailand nobody knows they even exists.

I think in the UK they are now mandatory for new installations over there.

 

 

 

[Johnlkuk]

16 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

As far as I see you can get all the basic electrical MCBs and RCBOs, etc. here.

But if you want to buy the good things, then buy RCBOs Type A in the UK.

I tried to get them in Thailand, but it seems in Thailand nobody knows they even exists.

I think in the UK they are now mandatory for new installations over there.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the extra input. 

I've linked my friend to this thread now so he can take note of the technical side of things. He will be the one to source what I need there. 

 

One other thing that was mentioned by Crossy would make sense to him too:  

"A UK main switch would be an isolator, that would not suit here (there is no DNO fuse here) you need a double-pole Mcb" 

 

I guess he would have to make sure he got one that fitted in the CU he supplies.

 

[Crossy]

10 hours ago, Johnlkuk said:

I guess he would have to make sure he got one that fitted in the CU he supplies.

 

Suitable MCBs are readily available here if he should "forget"

[bluejets]

Safest way for you as a dilutie (non-qualified, learned by word of mouth) would be to simply fit RCD combos to all the circuits and forget about the earthing.

 

Chances are you will end up connecting YOUR earth returns to metal which has absolutely no reference or a high impedance to ground and fry some other poor bugger during an earth fault.

 

If there is a good proven earth cable found by standard proven methods(not building reo by the way) no MEN connection would be necessary nor would it be recommended as the main supply and other sub-boards are within the same structure/building.

Edited February 17 by bluejets

[digbeth]

the tv aerial should be grounded right? what issue could arise from tapping ground from the co-axial cable that's likely unused these days, but in condo building these would have been ran through splitters and amplifier to your room, would the ground still be good