Israel is at War - General discussion (pt3)

[Nick Carter icp]

23 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Nick and you don't make good points; you just search for excuses for Israel's inexcusable devastation of Gaza. The excuse you are now trying to use to justify this merciless killing is, "Well, your forefathers did it, so we can do it now, too." And what I'm saying is that when my forefathers did something similar, it was wrong, and it's still wrong now. 

 

   That isn't correct on my part .

I believe that the war in Gaza is justified because of the Oct 7 attack .

You telling Israelis to get off the land of Israel, is a different matter .

The war in Gaza and Israelis living in Israel proper are two different issues 

[Jingthing]

32 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

If an Israeli told me to do anything right now, I couldn't post on this forum what my exact reply would be, but the gist of it would be what I've been saying all along. My forefathers committed genocide. It was wrong then, but that was over 500 years ago.  You, (the Israeli), are committing genocide now. It is wrong now. Stop it! 

You really hate Israelis, huh?

[Jingthing]

57 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Who's surprised at this? 

Israel’s far-right wants to move Palestinians out of Gaza. Its ideas are gaining attention.
Israel’s far-right wants to move Palestinians out of Gaza. Its ideas are gaining attention | CNN

Nothing surprising. 

Israeli is a democracy and they will discuss a range of options. 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of New Zealanders telling Israelis that they shouldn't be taking other peoples land , when Israeli forefathers lived on the land of Israel, but non Maori New Zealanders fore fathers didn't live on the land of New Zealand 

Israel demonizers will never acknowledge that Jews are indigenous to Israel  

For them its always the false narrative of rich "white" Jew oppressors vs  poor dark skinned innocent victims.

 

[Wobblybob]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

I am not hypocritical. I have said over and over again that what my forefathers did 400+ years ago was genocide and wrong. Now I am telling you that what Israel is doing now is genocide and wrong.

 

What you are doing is like telling someone who admits his father was a thief that it is now okay for you (Israel) to steal. It's just a crazy argument, trying to deflect the charge of genocide from Israel by bringing up the success of past genocides. 

Has your 1948 moment gone off the debate mode now, what Israel is doing now is a response to the butchers that invaded Israel on 7/10 and committed the heinous crimes that we are all so familiar now. Most of the Gazans were joyous at hearing the news of the brutally murdered Israelis, and the brutally murdered and disfigured bodies of young Israeli women were paraded for the feral throng to spit on. We are sick of your inflammatory words like "genocide" believe what these vile terrorists tell you by all means, rational thinkers know better. There must never be another 7/10! 

 

[WDSmart]

16 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   That isn't correct on my part .

I believe that the war in Gaza is justified because of the Oct 7 attack .

You telling Israelis to get off the land of Israel, is a different matter .

The war in Gaza and Israelis living in Israel proper are two different issues 

Ah, we do definitely have different point of view on this:
- I believe that the current military action in Gaza was provoked by the Hamas terrorist attack on Oct 7, but this is just a continuation of a much larger and longer conflict. I also believe the current military actions in Gaza have been much too severe and have gone on much longer than necessary.
- I am not telling Israelis to get off the land of Israel. I'm telling them to get off the land of the Palestinians. The UN clearly defined the division of these two lands in their 1947 map, which keeps getting deleted when I post it here.
- The current military actions in Gaza and the continuing war that is the result of Israelis taking and living on Palestinian land are all the same issue.

[WDSmart]

24 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You really hate Israelis, huh?

I don't hate Israelis, but I do hate their right-wing faction (which I am not allowed to name here). But then, I guess, I could say I hate all right-wing factions everywhere. 

[Nick Carter icp]

10 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I am not hypocritical. I have said over and over again that what my forefathers did 400+ years ago was genocide and wrong. Now I am telling you that what Israel is doing now is genocide and wrong.

 

What you are doing is like telling someone who admits his father was a thief that it is now okay for you (Israel) to steal. It's just a crazy argument, trying to deflect the charge of genocide from Israel by bringing up the success of past genocides. 

 

  I was referring to your stance that Israelis shouldn't  currently  be living on Israel proper.

(Nothing to do with the current Gaza war)

Israel was formed in 1948 , the USA was formed in 1776 .New Zealand was formed 1840 . Australia was formed in 1901

In which year did it stop being OK to go and live on other peoples land ?

(Not that Israelis are living on other peoples land though)

[WDSmart]

17 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Has your 1948 moment gone off the debate mode now, what Israel is doing now is a response to the butchers that invaded Israel on 7/10 and committed the heinous crimes that we are all so familiar now. Most of the Gazans were joyous at hearing the news of the brutally murdered Israelis, and the brutally murdered and disfigured bodies of young Israeli women were paraded for the feral throng to spit on. We are sick of your inflammatory words like "genocide" believe what these vile terrorists tell you by all means, rational thinkers know better. There must never be another 7/10! 

 

I agree there must never be another Oct 7, but I also believe there should never be a continuing (now almost 6-month-long) devastation of an area using indiscriminate bombing and now invasion causing ten's of thousands of civilian casualties. 

[ezzra]

If Israel withdrew tomorrow, all that will be left there is Hamas and other terrorist groups to run the place

as no one wants or can or replace Hamas and this is the problem, as nothing will changed and the whole situation

will be where it was back in 7.10, and until someone or somebody can replace Hamas, things will stay as they are,

death and distraction, famine and misery..

[WDSmart]

5 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  I was referring to your stance that Israelis shouldn't  currently  be living on Israel proper.

(Nothing to do with the current Gaza war)

Israel was formed in 1948 , the USA was formed in 1776 .New Zealand was formed 1840 . Australia was formed in 1901

In which year did it stop being OK to go and live on other peoples land ?

(Not that Israelis are living on other peoples land though)

It was ALWAYS wrong to forcibly seize and live on other people's land.
Israelis have done that for the past 75 years and NOW continue to do that. 

[WDSmart]

4 minutes ago, ezzra said:

If Israel withdrew tomorrow, all that will be left there is Hamas and other terrorist groups to run the place

as no one wants or can or replace Hamas and this is the problem, as nothing will changed and the whole situation

will be where it was back in 7.10, and until someone or somebody can replace Hamas, things will stay as they are,

death and distraction, famine and misery..

I agree but I have to add that things will remain the same until someone ALSO removes the right-wing, nationalistic leaders of Isreal (I can't use their names). They have the same motives, goals, and use the same tactics as Hamas. 

[Wobblybob]

5 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I agree there must never be another Oct 7, but I also believe there should never be a continuing (now almost 6-month-long) devastation of an area using indiscriminate bombing and now invasion causing ten's of thousands of civilian casualties. 

Then why aren't you calling for the Palestian terrorists to surrender and all the hostages released, it is the obvious and only way to end this war!

[Neeranam]

10 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Meaningless statement without being more specific.

Share the land means give each one some land and NOT continually steal the other one's!

[WDSmart]

4 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Then why aren't you calling for the Palestian terrorists to surrender and all the hostages released, it is the obvious and only way to end this war!

I have REPEATEDLY called for a CEASEFIRE, which would include the release/exchange of hostages/prisoners. I'm sure there would be other conditions, and a "surrender" could mean many things. If "surrender" just means a ceasefire, I think could be worked out. But if "surrender" means all Hamas would be taken into custody by the IDF, that would be more difficult. And, would that only mean the leaders or every fighter? 

Also the war will not end until the two sides (hopefully after getting rid of their current leadership) sit down and work out an agreement as to how this land will be divided up (two-state solution).

[Nick Carter icp]

7 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

It was ALWAYS wrong to forcibly seize and live on other people's land.
Israelis have done that for the past 75 years and NOW continue to do that. 

 

  OK, so you support Israelis living on their land which was legally bestowed upon them in 1948 and you oppose the Palestinians trying to forcible seize Israelis land ?

  Hamas attempted to seize Israeli  land (on Oct 7)  adjacent to Gaza and live on that land , and their aims was to seize all Israel's land and claim it as their own .

   Do you support Israel in this situation ?

After all , it is ALWAYS wrong to forcible seize other peoples land to live on 

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I have REPEATEDLY called for a CEASEFIRE, which would include the release/exchange of hostages/prisoners. I'm sure there would be other conditions, and a "surrender" could mean many things. If "surrender" just means a ceasefire, I think could be worked out. But if "surrender" means all Hamas would be taken into custody by the IDF, that would be more difficult. And, would that only mean the leaders or every fighter? 

Also the war will not end until the two sides (hopefully after getting rid of their current leadership) sit down and work out an agreement as to how this land will be divided up (two-state solution).

Why do you think they should exchange prisoners for the hostages? All ethical positions are that they should be released immediately with no conditions set don't you agree? Its only Hamas the terrorists who have that stance. The fact that Israel is will to make concessions is irrelevant.

[transam]

4 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I have REPEATEDLY called for a CEASEFIRE, which would include the release/exchange of hostages/prisoners. I'm sure there would be other conditions, and a "surrender" could mean many things. If "surrender" just means a ceasefire, I think could be worked out. But if "surrender" means all Hamas would be taken into custody by the IDF, that would be more difficult. And, would that only mean the leaders or every fighter? 

Also the war will not end until the two sides (hopefully after getting rid of their current leadership) sit down and work out an agreement as to how this land will be divided up (two-state solution).

They won't take any notice of you........🤭

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  OK, so you support Israelis living on their land which was legally bestowed upon them in 1948 and you oppose the Palestinians trying to forcible seize Israelis land ?

  Hamas attempted to seize Israeli  land (on Oct 7)  adjacent to Gaza and live on that land , and their aims was to seize all Israel's land and claim it as their own .

   Do you support Israel in this situation ?

After all , it is ALWAYS wrong to forcible seize other peoples land to live on 

Yes! (on most of your points above...

- I do support "Israelis living on their land which was legally bestowed upon them in 1948..." and do oppose "...the Palestinians trying to forcible seize Israelis land."

- The land that Hamas invaded on Oct 7 was their land in the 1948 UN map. Israel had "forcible[ly] sized" it since then.
- I support Israel in responding to the Oct 7 slaughter. I do not support Israel having seized and now living on that land.
- Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that "it is ALWAYS wrong to forcible seize other peoples land to live on."

 

[Wobblybob]

3 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I have REPEATEDLY called for a CEASEFIRE, which would include the release/exchange of hostages/prisoners. I'm sure there would be other conditions, and a "surrender" could mean many things. If "surrender" just means a ceasefire, I think could be worked out. But if "surrender" means all Hamas would be taken into custody by the IDF, that would be more difficult. And, would that only mean the leaders or every fighter? 

Also the war will not end until the two sides (hopefully after getting rid of their current leadership) sit down and work out an agreement as to how this land will be divided up (two-state solution).

Calling for a ceasefire without the terrorists being apprehended would give a green light for these evil terrorists to repeat 7/10, and Israel should not and I suspect will not fall into that trap, Hamas are really in no position to decide how this war ends. It would benefit the Gazans themselves to rid their state of these monsters, but judging by all accounts they don't want that to happen and is this a price worth paying, 'I hate Israel so much I will blow myself up to prove it, yeah, that'll show em.'

[WDSmart]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Why do you think they should exchange prisoners for the hostages? All ethical positions are that they should be released immediately with no conditions set don't you agree? Its only Hamas the terrorists who have that stance. The fact that Israel is will to make concessions is irrelevant.

I included the exchange of prisoners in my suggestion because that condition was included in the first couple of proposals from both Israel and Hamas that have been turned down. "Prisoners," from what I understand, include both Palestinians who have been arrested and held without a trial or conviction by Israel and soldiers (POWs) on each side. 

Yes, I think hostages should never have been taken and should be released with no conditions, but I know that is not what Hamas will do. They will use them as bargaining chips in negotiation. Israelis will use their military might and whatever prisoners they have as bargaining chips. I wouldn't say I like any of this, but this is the process that will have to be done.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, WDSmart said:

I included the exchange of prisoners in my suggestion because that condition was included in the first couple of proposals from both Israel and Hamas that have been turned down. "Prisoners," from what I understand, include both Palestinians who have been arrested and held without a trial or conviction by Israel and soldiers (POWs) on each side. 

Yes, I think hostages should never have been taken and should be released with no conditions, but I know that is not what Hamas will do. They will use them as bargaining chips in negotiation. Israelis will use their military might and whatever prisoners they have as bargaining chips. I wouldn't say I like any of this, but this is the process that will have to be done.

Yes, I think hostages should never have been taken and should be released with no conditions, but I know that is not what Hamas will do.

 

Exactly and why there is still a war going on because of Hamas. They have broken hostage deals already and are constantly making delusional demands. 

[Bkk Brian]

UNWRA must be feeling very proud of one of its ex teachers career progression.

 

 

 

Hamas terror chief Haniyeh was an Unwra teacher, reveals former UN official

Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh worked as a teacher for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (Unwra), former official at the agency Ahmad Oueidat revealed in an interview with the London-based Al-Hiwar TV channel last week.

In footage translated by Memri (The Middle East Media Research Institute), Oueidat says: “First and foremost, we can mention Ismail Haniyeh, who was an Unwra teacher, and so was Dr. Talal Naji, Secretary-General of the PFLP-GC [People’s Front for the Liberation of Palestine, which pioneered hijackings in the 1660s and 1970s].”

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/hamas-terror-chief-haniyeh-was-an-unwra-teacher-reveals-former-un-official-nvlqbb16

 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

16 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

 

- The land that Hamas invaded on Oct 7 was their land in the 1948 UN map. Israel had "forcible[ly] sized" it since then.
 

 

   It wasn't , the land Palestinians   seized on Oct 7 th was Israel proper land .

The land which Hamas seized on Oct 7 th which was between Gaza and the West Bank is Israel proper , even in the U.N 1948 map it shows it as Israel proper land .

   It is Israeli land which Palestineians  forcible seized from Israel 

   

[Nick Carter icp]

20 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Calling for a ceasefire without the terrorists being apprehended would give a green light for these evil terrorists to repeat 7/10, and Israel should not and I suspect will not fall into that trap, Hamas are really in no position to decide how this war ends. It would benefit the Gazans themselves to rid their state of these monsters, but judging by all accounts they don't want that to happen and is this a price worth paying, 'I hate Israel so much I will blow myself up to prove it, yeah, that'll show em.'

 

   It is also worth pointing out that the orchestrator of this Hamas attack was a Palestinian who was jailed in Israel for six murders , he got a 22 year jail sentence for those 6 murders .

   He was freed by Israel in a previous prisoner/hostage exchange in 2011 and he went on to lead the Oct 7 th attack on Israel

[ezzra]

47 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I agree but I have to add that things will remain the same until someone ALSO removes the right-wing, nationalistic leaders of Isreal (I can't use their names). They have the same motives, goals, and use the same tactics as Hamas. 

They're not calling for eradication and elimination of the Palestinian nation, only the terrorists, sent by other nations,

any government that will rule Israel will do pretty much the same to protect and safe guard Israel from a

destruction as Israel is now fighting on several fronts, some bordering it and some far away , and there're

and no matter no what government will rule Israel, there's always be those who don't want Jews/Israel in this world...

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

I agree but I have to add that things will remain the same until someone ALSO removes the right-wing, nationalistic leaders of Isreal (I can't use their names). They have the same motives, goals, and use the same tactics as Hamas. 

 

  That isnt true .

Hamas are holding a one year old Israeli baby as a hostage and making demands to return the baby to its parents .

   Israel are not holding any baby hostages or making demands for that babies return .

That is just one different tactic between Israel and Hamas 

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

I agree but I have to add that things will remain the same until someone ALSO removes the right-wing, nationalistic leaders of Isreal (I can't use their names). They have the same motives, goals, and use the same tactics as Hamas. 

 

   Stop being such a drama Queen , you can use the persons proper name or their affiliated  political party , you just need to stop calling them Zionists and/or Terrorists 🙂

[WDSmart]

50 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   It wasn't , the land Palestinians   seized on Oct 7 th was Israel proper land .

The land which Hamas seized on Oct 7 th which was between Gaza and the West Bank is Israel proper , even in the U.N 1948 map it shows it as Israel proper land .

   It is Israeli land which Palestineians  forcible seized from Israel 

   

I'm tired of trying to post maps of Israel just to have them removed. I've done this many times in the past. If you really want to see how much land Israel has taken from the Palestinians, just search for "map Israel 1948" and then "map Israel 2023" and you'll see for yourself.

[WDSmart]

38 minutes ago, ezzra said:

They're not calling for eradication and elimination of the Palestinian nation, only the terrorists, sent by other nations,

any government that will rule Israel will do pretty much the same to protect and safe guard Israel from a

destruction as Israel is now fighting on several fronts, some bordering it and some far away , and there're

and no matter no what government will rule Israel, there's always be those who don't want Jews/Israel in this world...

"They," the radical, right-wing faction of which Netanyahu's government is a member, do want the eradication and elimination of the Palestine nation so Israel can totally occupy what it thinks is its literally God-given right to own.

There will always be those who want Israel to share (or divide up) this land with the Palestinians who were living there before the state of Israel was created.