Big layoffs ahead in the automotive workshop sector - hold on to your hats!

[motdaeng]

1 minute ago, MrPancake said:

The entire EV industry is one big scam.

It is bound to fail due to the lack of resources anyway.

Most experts agree, yet nobody seems to give a fµck.

Go figure...

 

I saw a dog on a stick today in Hanoi.

Might give it a try at some point....

 

 

please enlighten us, who are this experts telling the EV industry is a big scam! do you have any sources ...

 

or maybe you are calling yourself to be one of this "most experts"?

 

can it be that you are a (the) scam ...

[Andrew Dwyer]

40 minutes ago, liddelljohn said:

Many commercial and public council charging stations in UK  have announced  recently massive increases in charging prices  ,so charging average EV will cost £50   also fines for staying longer than 3 hours  , many vehicles wont have a sufficient  charge in that time ,, people are furious ,,, ha ha just another cash cow,

 

  also government raising road taxes on EVs  and The  awaited really cheap Chinese models are likely to have huge import duties added .. making them expensive

The U.K. is a different case altogether, identical EV’s £45,500 in the U.K., £30,500 here in Thailand 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

The U.K. is a different case altogether, identical EV’s £45,500 in the U.K., £30,500 here in Thailand 

That could be country earnings related, which goes to show EV's are cheap to produce, perhaps.......😋

[MrPancake]

3 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

please enlighten us, who are this experts telling the EV industry is a big scam! do you have any sources ...

 

or maybe you are calling yourself to be one of this "most experts"?

 

can it be that you are a (the) scam ...

 

Thousands of sources online.

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/@smiuq/videos

Simon Michaux lecture is pretty interesting.

He is an Associate Professor of Geometallurgy at the Geological Survey of Finland, with a PhD in mining engineering. I hope it fits the bill when it comes to expert.

Now go suck a fat one.

[vinny41]

22 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

It's probable that customers are awaiting for the cheaper Chinese EV’s.

Chinese EVs are being shunned by insurance companies in the UK, with many new models being virtually uninsurable while others have prohibitively high premiums. This phenomenon is primarily due to fears of high repair costs, lack of technical information, and long lead times for replacement parts

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/03/chinese-evs-become-virtually-uninsurable-in-the-uk-says-report/#:

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, MrPancake said:

 

Thousands of sources online.

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/@smiuq/videos

Simon Michaux lecture is pretty interesting.

He is an Associate Professor of Geometallurgy at the Geological Survey of Finland, with a PhD in mining engineering. I hope it fits the bill when it comes to expert.

Now go suck a fat one.

Your link does not say anything like that.

[MrPancake]

16 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Your link does not say anything like that.

 

Not happy with my link ?

How about you use your favorite search engine to fact check by yourself like a big boy ?

Or you're too dumb for that?

 

[Gweiloman]

22 hours ago, MrPancake said:

The entire EV industry is one big scam.

It is bound to fail due to the lack of resources anyway.

Most experts agree, yet nobody seems to give a <deleted>.

Go figure...

 

I saw a dog on a stick today in Hanoi.

Might give it a try at some point....

 

Scam or not, my EV costed me as much as an equivalent ICEV. Drives better, performs better and costs less to run. Scam me any day I say lol.

[JBChiangRai]

20 hours ago, MrPancake said:

 

Not happy with my link ?

How about you use your favorite search engine to fact check by yourself like a big boy ?

Or you're too dumb for that?

 

 

We generally post facts, you should try it sometime, then you won’t look as stupid as you currently do.

 

Please do tell us why the EV industry is a scam? I can’t wait…

[MrPancake]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

We generally post facts, you should try it sometime, then you won’t look as stupid as you currently do.

 

Please do tell us why the EV industry is a scam? I can’t wait…

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

36 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

We generally post facts, you should try it sometime, then you won’t look as stupid as you currently do.

 

Please do tell us why the EV industry is a scam? I can’t wait…

 

27 minutes ago, MrPancake said:

 

 

More fluff?

 

You obviously don’t want to be taken seriously.

[MrPancake]

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

More fluff?

 

You obviously don’t want to be taken seriously.

 

Yes. That's it 😉

[liddelljohn]

On 3/27/2024 at 12:08 PM, motdaeng said:

 

please enlighten us, who are this experts telling the EV industry is a big scam! do you have any sources ...

 

or maybe you are calling yourself to be one of this "most experts"?

 

can it be that you are a (the) scam ...

My Brother   is chief power train design engineer for Delphi  who design  all types of power trains for major manufactures , last 10 years he has helped design EV  units for many major manufactures ,, he  still thinks that EVs are a scam , and will not  last and most of his fellow engineers think the same .He earns good  money but will not own an EV   in fact he drives an 2024 Audi Diesel A6 daily and has an 1968 Jag E type for fun.

[liddelljohn]

UK  average EV value in trade in after 12 months is 1/3 of retail thats a massive  66% loss  ...

[JBChiangRai]

6 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

My Brother   is chief power train design engineer for Delphi  who design  all types of power trains for major manufactures , last 10 years he has helped design EV  units for many major manufactures ,, he  still thinks that EVs are a scam , and will not  last and most of his fellow engineers think the same .He earns good  money but will not own an EV   in fact he drives an 2024 Audi Diesel A6 daily and has an 1968 Jag E type for fun.

My brother’s daughter’s husband works in a pickle factory and he says EV’s are a scam, so did the man in the pub.

[Startmeup]

That’s unusual, more delays. Demand must be…..electric
 

All the costs of building out charging stations for EVs will be passed on to the consumer through taxes and other means. Electricity costs will go through the roof. People will be begging to go back to petrol cars as the government introduces a new tax every other year to pay for the build out of charging stations and of the power grid. 

 

EVs are cost prohibitive and don’t make sense with current battery and charging technology for most people and the people who they do make sense for or want one already own one. Demand is falling, people don’t want to be forced to buy something they know doesn’t make sense, hybrids will pick up the slack. 

[JBChiangRai]

6 hours ago, Startmeup said:

That’s unusual, more delays. Demand must be…..electric
 

All the costs of building out charging stations for EVs will be passed on to the consumer through taxes and other means. Electricity costs will go through the roof. People will be begging to go back to petrol cars as the government introduces a new tax every other year to pay for the build out of charging stations and of the power grid. 

 

EVs are cost prohibitive and don’t make sense with current battery and charging technology for most people and the people who they do make sense for or want one already own one. Demand is falling, people don’t want to be forced to buy something they know doesn’t make sense, hybrids will pick up the slack. 

 

Your Ford article is wrong.

 

Mar 28 2024

Ford’s CEO Jim Farley called the Seagull “pretty damn good,” as he warned rivals. Farley said at the Wolfe Research Conference last month that if automakers fail to keep up with the Chinese, like BYD, “20% to 30% of your revenue is at risk.” In response, Ford is shifting from larger to smaller, more affordable EVs.

https://electrek.co/2024/03/28/byd-evs-enter-knockout-round-new-tech-launching/?fbclid=IwAR1_zbTBl60xSTRWz4i6XaTpsvQPHd-Tvdy6Qk3D-nEIFwoLT3PIzKORPAk_aem_AZotUpvMFEHhkEkcBuWbqMFVBI1zq1ltOQx1KORodh3-VEaBDXAlrWtSBxo2xmaKHs4

 

I added the bold emphasis.

[vinny41]

33 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Your Ford article is wrong.

 

Mar 28 2024

Ford’s CEO Jim Farley called the Seagull “pretty damn good,” as he warned rivals. Farley said at the Wolfe Research Conference last month that if automakers fail to keep up with the Chinese, like BYD, “20% to 30% of your revenue is at risk.” In response, Ford is shifting from larger to smaller, more affordable EVs.

https://electrek.co/2024/03/28/byd-evs-enter-knockout-round-new-tech-launching/?fbclid=IwAR1_zbTBl60xSTRWz4i6XaTpsvQPHd-Tvdy6Qk3D-nEIFwoLT3PIzKORPAk_aem_AZotUpvMFEHhkEkcBuWbqMFVBI1zq1ltOQx1KORodh3-VEaBDXAlrWtSBxo2xmaKHs4

 

I added the bold emphasis.

Ford CEO stated 

Chinese auto giant BYD 's Seagull small electric vehicle, he said, has about $9,000 in material costs, and it will probably cost the company another $2,000 to meet crash test standards, for a total cost of around $11,000. It has a range of about 150 miles in cold weather, “not a fantastic vehicle, but pretty damn good.”

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2024/02/15/ford-ceo-says-company-will-rethink-where-it-builds-vehicles-after-last-years-autoworkers-strike/72612953007/

It seems selective quoting I wondered why they didn't include "not a fantastic vehicle"  in their quoted article

 

 

[Gweiloman]

6 hours ago, Startmeup said:

That’s unusual, more delays. Demand must be…..electric
 

All the costs of building out charging stations for EVs will be passed on to the consumer through taxes and other means. Electricity costs will go through the roof. People will be begging to go back to petrol cars as the government introduces a new tax every other year to pay for the build out of charging stations and of the power grid. 

 

EVs are cost prohibitive and don’t make sense with current battery and charging technology for most people and the people who they do make sense for or want one already own one. Demand is falling, people don’t want to be forced to buy something they know doesn’t make sense, hybrids will pick up the slack. 

I would definitely not buy a Ford or GM made EV as these are inferior products made by obsolete technology and demoralised and uninspired workers. No wonder that even the American consumer doesn’t want these cars. Coupled with the poor infrastructure, EV sales won’t do well. That’s just common sense. 
 

Meanwhile, in more advanced countries around the world, owning an EV makes a lot of sense for a lot of people. Factors such as extremely competitive pricing vs ICEVs, lower cost of running and maintenance, excellent performance and levels of comfort, ability to charge at home, good public charging infrastructure for the occasional long distance trip etc results in a very satisfactory ownership experience.

[JBChiangRai]

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Ford CEO stated 

Chinese auto giant BYD 's Seagull small electric vehicle, he said, has about $9,000 in material costs, and it will probably cost the company another $2,000 to meet crash test standards, for a total cost of around $11,000. It has a range of about 150 miles in cold weather, “not a fantastic vehicle, but pretty damn good.”

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2024/02/15/ford-ceo-says-company-will-rethink-where-it-builds-vehicles-after-last-years-autoworkers-strike/72612953007/

It seems selective quoting I wondered why they didn't include "not a fantastic vehicle"  in their quoted article

 

 

 

They probably didn't include it because it was qualified by "but pretty damned good".

 

Ford recognises the threat posed by Chinese EV's, whether they can compete remains to be seen, and IMHO they can only compete if the gov't starts some protectionist policies.

 

I like that I can buy what I want here.

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

They probably didn't include it because it was qualified by "but pretty damned good".

 

Ford recognises the threat posed by Chinese EV's, whether they can compete remains to be seen, and IMHO they can only compete if the gov't starts some protectionist policies.

 

I like that I can buy what I want here.

Some people would call it out as selected cherry picking or Spin

Remember

Alastair Campbell had Iraq dossier changed to fit US claims

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jan/10/alastair-campbell-iraq-dossier-inquiry

[JBChiangRai]

23 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Some people would call it out as selected cherry picking or Spin

Remember

Alastair Campbell had Iraq dossier changed to fit US claims

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jan/10/alastair-campbell-iraq-dossier-inquiry

 

I wouldn't disagree with you.

 

I think most American cars aren't fantastic and hardly any of them are pretty damned good.

[Startmeup]

 

Must be due to the robust demand

[motdaeng]

32 minutes ago, Startmeup said:

 

Must be due to the robust demand

 

a good read, with some interesting thoughts ...

 

https://electrek.co/2024/04/15/tesla-lays-off-more-than-10-of-its-global-workforce/

[liddelljohn]

tesla sales falling as are EVs overall but also their cars are now outdated and stale in the showrooms  and have   suspect reliabilty levels ,, some of the Chinese manufacturers have also cut production and workforces in last 3 months ...might be a temporary hiccup  due to market conditions ???

[JBChiangRai]

5 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

tesla sales falling as are EVs overall but also their cars are now outdated and stale in the showrooms  and have   suspect reliabilty levels ,, some of the Chinese manufacturers have also cut production and workforces in last 3 months ...might be a temporary hiccup  due to market conditions ???

 

It could be more permanent, it all depends on what America, the EU and UK do.

 

We have a situation in Thailand where the government says "You can buy what you want, we want you to buy EV, we don't care where it's made". I deliberately left off the subsidies bit because the subsidised price here is the same as the unsubsidised price in Australia, for BYD anyway. The automakers are using the subsidies to increase profits here which they need to invest in assembly plants to get the subsidies.

 

The other countries I mentioned say "We want you to buy EV's and you can buy any EV you want so long as it costs the same as locally made cars, that means we'll tax the $hit out of Chinese EV's" In this scenario, EV's cost about 50% more.

 

I bought a BYD Seal, it costs about the same as a Toyota Camry or a Honda Accord and is in the same segment.  If it cost 50% more, I would not have bought it.

 

We are at a fork in the road.  Tax the $.hit out of Chinese EV's and demand will slump, allow free trade and the world will buy Chinese EV's and the legacy automakers who are not in a niche position cannot compete because nobody wants to pay 50% more for an EV.

 

Niche players like BMW, Mercedes & Porsche will still sell EV's simply because they are niche players. 

 

If we look at the rationale behind protectionist policies carefully, it crumbles.  They say China is subsidising all their EV's sold overseas, but is it really?  If that were true then the cars sold overseas would be cheaper than the domestic Chinese market, but that's not true.  They sell overseas for almost 50% more than they do in China before taxes and tariffs.

 

China can sell their cars cheaply, at a profit for 3 reasons.  Firstly, China has the resources, all the rare earths needed, secondly, they have a cheap & motivated workforce prepared to work hard & long hours, and lastly, they are far more efficient, in the case of BYD almost everything that goes into the car is made by BYD (seats, plastics, semiconductors, lights, motors etc).

 

If we contrast that with RoW (rest of world) automakers), they have to buy their rare earths and batteries from China, their workforces are expensive, lazy and unmotivated, and lastly, they buy in headlights, tail lights, air conditioning systems, seats, door trims, window glass, wheels, tyres, electronics, motors, inverters, all the plastics etc.  They just press the steel bodywork, paint it and assemble all the third party products needed to assemble the car.

 

Thailand will continue to go EV because it's a no-brainer if an EV costs the same as an ICE car.  One test drive is enough to convince the hardest of sceptics that they drive far superior to an ICE car.  Gradually people are understanding that we do have the charging infrastructure here and they don't need charging stations within 150km of their homes.

 

If I lived in the EU, UK or USA I would not be happy having to pay 50% more for a locally made EV because countries & automakers didn't sort out their supply chains for rare earths/batteries years ago when it was clear what is coming, or because their workforces are lazy, unmotivated & overpaid, or because automakers have taken the easy route of buying in everything and assembling it and hundreds of OEM suppliers are profiting out of every sale.

[Startmeup]

On 4/16/2024 at 1:38 AM, liddelljohn said:

tesla sales falling as are EVs overall but also their cars are now outdated and stale in the showrooms  and have   suspect reliabilty levels ,, some of the Chinese manufacturers have also cut production and workforces in last 3 months ...might be a temporary hiccup  due to market conditions ???

 

Tesla making some cut back in China now also 

 

[josephbloggs]

44 minutes ago, Startmeup said:

 

Tesla making some cut back in China now also 

 

Not surprising really, they are now up against serious competition from manufactures offering much better products. Whenever I get round to buying my next car it will definitely be an EV but I wouldn't consider a Tesla for a minute - they are just not as good as their rivals.

[vinny41]

On 4/16/2024 at 1:31 AM, JBChiangRai said:

 

It could be more permanent, it all depends on what America, the EU and UK do.

 

We have a situation in Thailand where the government says "You can buy what you want, we want you to buy EV, we don't care where it's made". I deliberately left off the subsidies bit because the subsidised price here is the same as the unsubsidised price in Australia, for BYD anyway. The automakers are using the subsidies to increase profits here which they need to invest in assembly plants to get the subsidies.

 

The other countries I mentioned say "We want you to buy EV's and you can buy any EV you want so long as it costs the same as locally made cars, that means we'll tax the $hit out of Chinese EV's" In this scenario, EV's cost about 50% more.

 

I bought a BYD Seal, it costs about the same as a Toyota Camry or a Honda Accord and is in the same segment.  If it cost 50% more, I would not have bought it.

 

We are at a fork in the road.  Tax the $.hit out of Chinese EV's and demand will slump, allow free trade and the world will buy Chinese EV's and the legacy automakers who are not in a niche position cannot compete because nobody wants to pay 50% more for an EV.

 

Niche players like BMW, Mercedes & Porsche will still sell EV's simply because they are niche players. 

 

If we look at the rationale behind protectionist policies carefully, it crumbles.  They say China is subsidising all their EV's sold overseas, but is it really?  If that were true then the cars sold overseas would be cheaper than the domestic Chinese market, but that's not true.  They sell overseas for almost 50% more than they do in China before taxes and tariffs.

 

China can sell their cars cheaply, at a profit for 3 reasons.  Firstly, China has the resources, all the rare earths needed, secondly, they have a cheap & motivated workforce prepared to work hard & long hours, and lastly, they are far more efficient, in the case of BYD almost everything that goes into the car is made by BYD (seats, plastics, semiconductors, lights, motors etc).

 

If we contrast that with RoW (rest of world) automakers), they have to buy their rare earths and batteries from China, their workforces are expensive, lazy and unmotivated, and lastly, they buy in headlights, tail lights, air conditioning systems, seats, door trims, window glass, wheels, tyres, electronics, motors, inverters, all the plastics etc.  They just press the steel bodywork, paint it and assemble all the third party products needed to assemble the car.

 

Thailand will continue to go EV because it's a no-brainer if an EV costs the same as an ICE car.  One test drive is enough to convince the hardest of sceptics that they drive far superior to an ICE car.  Gradually people are understanding that we do have the charging infrastructure here and they don't need charging stations within 150km of their homes.

 

If I lived in the EU, UK or USA I would not be happy having to pay 50% more for a locally made EV because countries & automakers didn't sort out their supply chains for rare earths/batteries years ago when it was clear what is coming, or because their workforces are lazy, unmotivated & overpaid, or because automakers have taken the easy route of buying in everything and assembling it and hundreds of OEM suppliers are profiting out of every sale.

I think you will find that the preferred  policy of the Thai Government is 

"You can buy what you want,  so long as you can afforded it and  the purchase doesn't over burden your existing household debt

we don't mind if you buy EV or ICE vehicles  we would prefer your choice of vehicle to be made in Thailand

Srettha said Thailand would remain a hub of ICE vehicle production during the transitional period. Thai government agencies would continue to collaborate with Japanese ICE automakers on support measures, he told Kishida.

https://www.nationthailand.com/thailand/policies/40032908

Hence subsidy on Hybrid extended for 2 more years

[Presnock]

The switch to EV in the US reportedly has already hit the brakes as Americans are used to climbing into their vehicle and driving for hours without having to stop except for maybe a "pit stop" and the EV's just cannot do those long trips YET.  Also the cost of vehicles is becoming difficult for many as wages have not come up to the losses due to inflation and housing is much more expensive than ever before with taxes being increased to pay for all the illegals pouring in.  Once people realize the pollution costs of the materials needed for the EV's they will shudder to think they bought into this by the big $$$$ companies.  Just like Big Pharma - over 500 new billionaires duirng the COVID pandemic and people are still paying for that.  Now we are learning that foods can prevent and cure illnesses instead of drugs and medicines and have no harmful effects on the human body.  Again we were led stray by the Big $$$ companies.  China meanwhile is trying to cover the world with their EV's...should be interesting anyway in my opinion.