Juristic office

[Dewey]

Good afternoon,

 

quick post to ask about condo management (or juristic office). I've been living in the same condo for the last 12 years and I'm an owner since 6 years.

Today, other owners (Thai) reach out to me because they are sick of the condo management and they are gathering all the complains they can find.

They know I had a few problems with the management in the past and they want me to join their crusade (probably because I was the only one asking questions management didn't want to hear at the last year co-owner meeting).

 

Anyway, I'm thrilled about this and for once it's started from Thai owners so I will not be the bad "farang" who complain about everything 🙂

However, before joining them I have a few questions about condo management and hopefully someone here will have a few answers :

 

- Since the new management took over the condo, new rules appears and if we don't respect those new rules we can get a fine (from 1000 to 5000 THB)

1. Is there a general law in Thailand about rules in condos ?
2. Can they add new rules without the approval of the majority of owner ?
3. Can they fine condo resident ? On which authority ? What can happened if an owner refuse to pay a fine ?

 

- Last year they raised the annual fee for owner (which we vote yes for) because they didn't have enough cash to pay the staff and condo upkeep), they also had a debt of 200K THB.

1. They complained about not having enough money to pay the staff but they still let them do overtime on weekends, during next co-owner meeting can we ask to see the cost of management (salaries, overtime paid etc.) ?
2. Can we request to have the total spending per month for maintenance, external contractor and other type of spending ?

 

Thanks for the help.

[SAFETY FIRST]

14 minutes ago, Dewey said:

Since the new management took over the condo

Why did you replace the Juristic management company? 

 

[Dewey]

1 minute ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Why did you replace the Juristic management company? 

 

 

Tbh I don't know. The whole team changed 3 times in 6 years, I don't think the management company change, only the staff and manager.

[scubascuba3]

29 minutes ago, Dewey said:

 

 

- Since the new management took over the condo, new rules appears and if we don't respect those new rules we can get a fine (from 1000 to 5000 THB)

1. Is there a general law in Thailand about rules in condos ? - Yes, condo Act 2008, download it.
2. Can they add new rules without the approval of the majority of owner ? Depends , see house rules doc
3. Can they fine condo resident ? On which authority ? What can happened if an owner refuse to pay a fine ? depends on house rules and condo act

 

- Last year they raised the annual fee for owner (which we vote yes for) because they didn't have enough cash to pay the staff and condo upkeep), they also had a debt of 200K THB.

1. They complained about not having enough money to pay the staff but they still let them do overtime on weekends, during next co-owner meeting can we ask to see the cost of management (salaries, overtime paid etc.) ? Yes, should issue monthly cashflow
2. Can we request to have the total spending per month for maintenance, external contractor and other type of spending ? Yes, see above

 

Thanks for the help.

I've annotated your post as it's easier to answer, others might have a different view 

[SAFETY FIRST]

2 hours ago, Dewey said:

Last year they raised the annual fee for owner (which we vote yes for) because they didn't have enough cash to pay the staff and condo upkeep), they also had a debt of 200K THB.

1. They complained about not having enough money to pay the staff 

What are you being charged for yearly maintenance per square metre and what was it increased from? 

 

Where are you located? 

 

Why have they no money? 

 

[Peterw42]

14 hours ago, Dewey said:

Good afternoon,

 

quick post to ask about condo management (or juristic office). I've been living in the same condo for the last 12 years and I'm an owner since 6 years.

Today, other owners (Thai) reach out to me because they are sick of the condo management and they are gathering all the complains they can find.

They know I had a few problems with the management in the past and they want me to join their crusade (probably because I was the only one asking questions management didn't want to hear at the last year co-owner meeting).

 

Anyway, I'm thrilled about this and for once it's started from Thai owners so I will not be the bad "farang" who complain about everything 🙂

However, before joining them I have a few questions about condo management and hopefully someone here will have a few answers :

 

- Since the new management took over the condo, new rules appears and if we don't respect those new rules we can get a fine (from 1000 to 5000 THB)

1. Is there a general law in Thailand about rules in condos ?
2. Can they add new rules without the approval of the majority of owner ?
3. Can they fine condo resident ? On which authority ? What can happened if an owner refuse to pay a fine ?

 

- Last year they raised the annual fee for owner (which we vote yes for) because they didn't have enough cash to pay the staff and condo upkeep), they also had a debt of 200K THB.

1. They complained about not having enough money to pay the staff but they still let them do overtime on weekends, during next co-owner meeting can we ask to see the cost of management (salaries, overtime paid etc.) ?
2. Can we request to have the total spending per month for maintenance, external contractor and other type of spending ?

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Is there a general law in Thailand about rules in condos ?

As others have said, there is a condo act that covers everything to do with condo admin. However, there are usually specific bylaws for each condo block , things like no pets, noise etc.

 

Can they add new rules without the approval of the majority of owner ?

These laws are set when the condo block is established and filed at the land office, and can only be added to or amended via a vote at annual meeting etc.

 

Can they fine condo resident ? On which authority ? What can happened if an owner refuse to pay a fine ?

On authority of the condo act, where its is all layed out in great detail, including penalties for non payment.

 

Can we request to have the total spending per month for maintenance, external contractor and other type of spending ?

As stated in the condo act, a monthly statement must be available and posted for view, covering the money in out each month (usually posted on a notice board outside the office). And the fully audited accounts must be available at the AGM, (its usually one of the first items on the meeting agenda)

 

If you are looking at getting rid of the current management company, the first thing is to look at their contract. These mafia like management companies usually have a very complex contract ensuring its almost impossible to sack them, and although they are not supposed to, they control meetings, proxy votes etc and then vote not to sack themselves.

 

Thai condo act in English

 

https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/new-thailand-condominium-act-2008.html

[Cake Monster]

+1 on the accounts

It is your legal right to be able to view the Accounts on a Monthly basis, 

These Accounts are legally to be posted in a prominent position where they are able to be viewed without any kind of restrictions.

200K in debt ?

I dont know how you became aware of this , but the residents to start asking some serious questions of the Management Committee, and the Accounts would be a good place to start

[Dewey]

13 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

What are you being charged for yearly maintenance per square metre and what was it increased from? 

 

Where are you located? 

 

Why have they no money? 

 

Annual fee was changed from 32THB per sqm to 45THB, they justify the raise because it never went up since condo exists (2009)

Location is sukhumvit50. Why no money, tbh I'm not so sure, they talked about it at last year co-owner meeting but I did not understand all of it.

[Dewey]

2 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

 

Is there a general law in Thailand about rules in condos ?

As others have said, there is a condo act that covers everything to do with condo admin. However, there are usually specific bylaws for each condo block , things like no pets, noise etc.

 

Can they add new rules without the approval of the majority of owner ?

These laws are set when the condo block is established and filed at the land office, and can only be added to or amended via a vote at annual meeting etc.

 

Can they fine condo resident ? On which authority ? What can happened if an owner refuse to pay a fine ?

On authority of the condo act, where its is all layed out in great detail, including penalties for non payment.

 

Can we request to have the total spending per month for maintenance, external contractor and other type of spending ?

As stated in the condo act, a monthly statement must be available and posted for view, covering the money in out each month (usually posted on a notice board outside the office). And the fully audited accounts must be available at the AGM, (its usually one of the first items on the meeting agenda)

 

If you are looking at getting rid of the current management company, the first thing is to look at their contract. These mafia like management companies usually have a very complex contract ensuring its almost impossible to sack them, and although they are not supposed to, they control meetings, proxy votes etc and then vote not to sack themselves.

 

Thai condo act in English

 

https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/new-thailand-condominium-act-2008.html

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks a lot.

[Dewey]

17 minutes ago, Cake Monster said:

+1 on the accounts

It is your legal right to be able to view the Accounts on a Monthly basis, 

These Accounts are legally to be posted in a prominent position where they are able to be viewed without any kind of restrictions.

200K in debt ?

I dont know how you became aware of this , but the residents to start asking some serious questions of the Management Committee, and the Accounts would be a good place to start

Yeah I don't think they share the accounts. I will have a look if they do.

we became aware about this because they use this problem as a way to raise the fee last year.

 

Thanks for the reply.

[scubascuba3]

5 hours ago, Dewey said:

Annual fee was changed from 32THB per sqm to 45THB, they justify the raise because it never went up since condo exists (2009)

Location is sukhumvit50. Why no money, tbh I'm not so sure, they talked about it at last year co-owner meeting but I did not understand all of it.

Annual fee increase should have been voted on at the AGM, probably justified but they should justify spending

[Ray60]

On 3/21/2024 at 4:41 PM, Dewey said:

Good afternoon,

 

quick post to ask about condo management (or juristic office). I've been living in the same condo for the last 12 years and I'm an owner since 6 years.

Today, other owners (Thai) reach out to me because they are sick of the condo management and they are gathering all the complains they can find.

They know I had a few problems with the management in the past and they want me to join their crusade (probably because I was the only one asking questions management didn't want to hear at the last year co-owner meeting).

 

Anyway, I'm thrilled about this and for once it's started from Thai owners so I will not be the bad "farang" who complain about everything 🙂

However, before joining them I have a few questions about condo management and hopefully someone here will have a few answers :

 

- Since the new management took over the condo, new rules appears and if we don't respect those new rules we can get a fine (from 1000 to 5000 THB)

1. Is there a general law in Thailand about rules in condos ?
2. Can they add new rules without the approval of the majority of owner ?
3. Can they fine condo resident ? On which authority ? What can happened if an owner refuse to pay a fine ?

 

- Last year they raised the annual fee for owner (which we vote yes for) because they didn't have enough cash to pay the staff and condo upkeep), they also had a debt of 200K THB.

1. They complained about not having enough money to pay the staff but they still let them do overtime on weekends, during next co-owner meeting can we ask to see the cost of management (salaries, overtime paid etc.) ?
2. Can we request to have the total spending per month for maintenance, external contractor and other type of spending ?

 

Thanks for the help.

charging fines is for sure illegal and not covered in the Condo Act.

[newnative]

4 hours ago, Ray60 said:

charging fines is for sure illegal and not covered in the Condo Act.

     Condo associations can charge fines.  At one condo I lived at the condo association charged fines for a number of violations, including hanging laundry above the railing on your balcony.  The OP needs to check his condo's bylaws.  

[tomazbodner]

On 3/21/2024 at 4:41 PM, Dewey said:

Good afternoon,

 

quick post to ask about condo management (or juristic office). I've been living in the same condo for the last 12 years and I'm an owner since 6 years.

Today, other owners (Thai) reach out to me because they are sick of the condo management and they are gathering all the complains they can find.

They know I had a few problems with the management in the past and they want me to join their crusade (probably because I was the only one asking questions management didn't want to hear at the last year co-owner meeting).

 

Anyway, I'm thrilled about this and for once it's started from Thai owners so I will not be the bad "farang" who complain about everything 🙂

However, before joining them I have a few questions about condo management and hopefully someone here will have a few answers :

 

- Since the new management took over the condo, new rules appears and if we don't respect those new rules we can get a fine (from 1000 to 5000 THB)

1. Is there a general law in Thailand about rules in condos ?
2. Can they add new rules without the approval of the majority of owner ?
3. Can they fine condo resident ? On which authority ? What can happened if an owner refuse to pay a fine ?

 

- Last year they raised the annual fee for owner (which we vote yes for) because they didn't have enough cash to pay the staff and condo upkeep), they also had a debt of 200K THB.

1. They complained about not having enough money to pay the staff but they still let them do overtime on weekends, during next co-owner meeting can we ask to see the cost of management (salaries, overtime paid etc.) ?
2. Can we request to have the total spending per month for maintenance, external contractor and other type of spending ?

 

Thanks for the help.

I don't know all the answers but these I do:

2) Can they add new rules without the approval of majority of owners? Yes. If the committee, which is voted for, approves it.

3) Can they fine condo resident? Yes they can, if rules of the condo as set by the committee and published to residents are violated. What happens if owner refuses to pay? They add it to outstanding fees like water and maintenance, charge late payment interest, and if exceeding certain amount of time, cut the water and access to common areas.

 

Can you request total spending, etc.? Yes. In fact they should provide that update to all residents at least quarterly, in our case it's published every month and includes all the costs, including all salaries, all the upkeep of the building, contractor fees for repairs (including which unit was being repaired and for what), etc.

 

Our condo is managed by Plus property. It was put to vote a year back or so when building was 5 years old and majority voted to keep them... but we did change security company twice, and each next one is worse than the last...

[Ray60]

13 hours ago, newnative said:

     Condo associations can charge fines.  At one condo I lived at the condo association charged fines for a number of violations, including hanging laundry above the railing on your balcony.  The OP needs to check his condo's bylaws.  

there is no legal basis for charging fines, unless its for costs caused by the tenant or co-owner or interest on late payments, but that's it. The Juristic Person or the Committee cannot just make up some random fines for breaking any rules. It will not hold in front of a court. 

[newnative]

2 hours ago, Ray60 said:

there is no legal basis for charging fines, unless its for costs caused by the tenant or co-owner or interest on late payments, but that's it. The Juristic Person or the Committee cannot just make up some random fines for breaking any rules. It will not hold in front of a court. 

        If there were no fines, there would be no use in writing condo rules--they would just be ignored.  In the example I gave with laundry on the balconies, it made for a much better look for the condo.   Once people were fined for violating the rule, word got around and it was rare to see laundry hanging over the balcony railings, etc.   I was happy there was such a rule, and others, and they were being enforced.  What I found:

Yes, condominium (condo) associations in Thailand can include fines for rule violations in their bylaws, but these fines must be reasonable and align with the Condominium Act and other relevant laws. The specific rules and penalties are typically established by the condo's management or juristic person and must be approved by the unit owners. 

[Ray60]

21 hours ago, newnative said:

        If there were no fines, there would be no use in writing condo rules--they would just be ignored.  In the example I gave with laundry on the balconies, it made for a much better look for the condo.   Once people were fined for violating the rule, word got around and it was rare to see laundry hanging over the balcony railings, etc.   I was happy there was such a rule, and others, and they were being enforced.  What I found:

Yes, condominium (condo) associations in Thailand can include fines for rule violations in their bylaws, but these fines must be reasonable and align with the Condominium Act and other relevant laws. The specific rules and penalties are typically established by the condo's management or juristic person and must be approved by the unit owners. 

right, but it requires an AGM resolution approved by min. 50% of the co-owners in the building and it has to be mentioned in the house rules and regulations, which is very difficult to achieve. Usually the co-owner attendance of AGM's incl. Proxy's is below 50%. 

[newnative]

10 minutes ago, Ray60 said:

right, but it requires an AGM resolution approved by min. 50% of the co-owners in the building and it has to be mentioned in the house rules and regulations, which is very difficult to achieve. Usually the co-owner attendance of AGM's incl. Proxy's is below 50%. 

    How fines are established is not the point.  I was responding to your statement that, I quote, "there is no legal basis for charging fines".   

[Ray60]

23 hours ago, newnative said:

    How fines are established is not the point.  I was responding to your statement that, I quote, "there is no legal basis for charging fines".   

according to my lawyer there is no legal basis to charge fines, some Juristic Person Manager's act like dictators and overstep their boundaries and try to make up some ridiculous rules, but even if they get approved at the AGM they will never hold in court. They are mostly used as a threat but can never be enforced.

[newnative]

3 hours ago, Ray60 said:

according to my lawyer there is no legal basis to charge fines, some Juristic Person Manager's act like dictators and overstep their boundaries and try to make up some ridiculous rules, but even if they get approved at the AGM they will never hold in court. They are mostly used as a threat but can never be enforced.

• Condominium Act:

  The Condominium Act of 1979 (B.E. 2522) and subsequent amendments provide the legal basis for condominium management in Thailand. 

   
• Bylaws:

  Each condominium develops its own set of bylaws, which include rules and regulations for residents. 

   
• Fines:

  The bylaws can specify fines for violations of these rules. These fines are often a way to enforce compliance with the regulations, such as those related to noise, use of common areas, or pets. 

   
• Enforcement:

  Condo associations have the power to enforce these rules and regulations, and fines are one of the mechanisms they can use. 

   
• Transparency and Participation:

  Residents have rights to information about the condo's operations, including the bylaws and any changes to them. They also have the right to participate in meetings and voice their concerns. 

   
• Legal Consequences:

  Failure to comply with the Condominium Act or the condo's regulations can lead to legal consequences, which may include fines, penalties, or other actions as outlined in the bylaws.