House in wives / girlfriends name

[MangoKorat]

3 hours ago, mogandave said:

So apparently we agree, in that a foreigner (or anyone) selling a property at an attractive price should have no difficulty unloading it in a year, yes?

Not necessarily.  An 'attractive price' may not mean that the owner recovers their costs.

 

Secondhand property has always taken time to sell due to Thai's aversion to it.  Of course if you ask much less than the value, you are more likely to get a sale but it can be difficult to sell a property at any price in Thailand.

 

Another factor can be that whilst a house has value to its owner, others may not be interested at all.  Many foreigners build houses on land belonging to their partner's or their family and that house is often a much higher specification than is the norm in the area. That expense may well be OK at the time but impossible to recover in forced sale situation.

 

I know of quite a few foreigners, married to Thai's who have built houses costing 3 or 4 million and are happy to have done so. These house are quite often in a village location and may well be far away from local amenities etc. Quite a few of them wouldn't have a hope in hell of recovering that expense within any time period, let alone 12 months.

 

Every area has its ceiling value per sq m and high spec houses may well exceed that in terms of cost.  My house for example, is in a high value location (for the area). I have carried out several improvements to it for my own comfort and have other improvements planned.  However, shortly after I bought it the new M6 motorway was announced sparking a flurry of land sales and new building.  What was a quiet, semi rural location may well soon be swallowed up by the nearby city.  The new motorway may well increase values in the minds of Thai people but for me its a negative.

 

I have a potential new opportunity in a different area. I am still deciding whether to sell my current house and move on or carry out those further improvements.  At the moment, I would probably get around a 800,000 to a million baht more than I paid for the property, including improvements.  If I carry out the further improvements I doubt I would get my money back if I decided to sell.  The spec I have planned will most likely take it over the ceiling price. If I had a crystal ball and could guarantee that no further new developments will take place nearby, I'd be happy to stay because I love the location.

 

The current spec of my house is way over the norm for the area. What I see as essential items for my own comfort are almost certainly not seen in the same way by any potential Thai buyers. This is the case with a lot of houses 'owned' by foreigners in Thailand.

 

There is a commomly used phrase when it comes to the main factors that determine the value and saleability of any property - across the world.  Location, location, location. A house with similar specs to mine is common place in say Pattaya where a lot of foreigners live but its not in my area. All these things affect the value and overall saleability.

 

So no, I don't think that simply offering a property at an 'attractive price' will guarantee a sale within a year. There are several factors to be considered - not least of which may be whether or not you are prepared to accept a loss.

 

Its not a simple matter - value is determined by location, spec and demand.  The fact that a foreigner has spent 5 million building a house to their spec does not mean that the house is actually worth that.

 

Edited March 26 by MangoKorat

[mogandave]

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Not necessarily.  An 'attractive price' may not mean that the owner recovers their costs.

The owner’s costs have nothing to do with the value.

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Secondhand property has always taken time to sell due to Thai's aversion to it.  Of course if you ask much less than the value, you are more likely to get a sale but it can be difficult to sell a property at any price in Thailand.

Market value is what something will sell for. 

 

It is difficult to sell an overpriced property anywhere.

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Another factor can be that whilst a house has value to its owner, others may not be interested at all.  Many foreigners build houses on land belonging to their partner's or their family and that house is often a much higher specification than is the norm in the area. That expense may well be OK at the time but impossible to recover in forced sale situation.

Again, market value is based on what people will pay for something, not what the owner thinks it is worth.

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I know of quite a few foreigners, married to Thai's who have built houses costing 3 or 4 million and are happy to have done so. These house are quite often in a village location and may well be far away from local amenities etc. Quite a few of them wouldn't have a hope in hell of recovering that expense within any time period, let alone 12 months.

Again, this has nothing to do with the owner being a foreigner. 

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Every area has its ceiling value per sq m and high spec houses may well exceed that in terms of cost.  My house for example, is in a high value location (for the area). I have carried out several improvements to it for my own comfort and have other improvements planned.  However, shortly after I bought it the new M6 motorway was announced sparking a flurry of land sales and new building.  What was a quiet, semi rural location may well soon be swallowed up by the nearby city.  The new motorway may well increase values in the minds of Thai people but for me its a negative.

 

I have a potential new opportunity in a different area. I am still deciding whether to sell my current house and move on or carry out those further improvements.  At the moment, I would probably get around a 800,000 to a million baht more than I paid for the property, including improvements.  If I carry out the further improvements I doubt I would get my money back if I decided to sell.  The spec I have planned will most likely take it over the ceiling price. If I had a crystal ball and could guarantee that no further new developments will take place nearby, I'd be happy to stay because I love the location.

 

The current spec of my house is way over the norm for the area. What I see as essential items for my own comfort are almost certainly not seen in the same way by any potential Thai buyers. This is the case with a lot of houses 'owned' by foreigners in Thailand.

 

There is a commomly used phrase when it comes to the main factors that determine the value and saleability of any property - across the world.  Location, location, location. A house with similar specs to mine is common place in say Pattaya where a lot of foreigners live but its not in my area. All these things affect the value and overall saleability.

 

So no, I don't think that simply offering a property at an 'attractive price' will guarantee a sale within a year. There are several factors to be considered - not least of which may be whether or not you are prepared to accept a loss.

 

Its not a simple matter - value is determined by location, spec and demand.  The fact that a foreigner has spent 5 million building a house to their spec does not mean that the house is actually woth that.

 

So how is it you disagree with me? 

 

A home that will not sell in a year, will likely not sell in two. 

[MangoKorat]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

So how is it you disagree with me? 

 

A home that will not sell in a year, will likely not sell in two. 

I have tried to be helpful, not engage in an argument.

 

If you feel you understand the Thai property market better than I do - hat's off to you.

[MangoKorat]

The Thai property market is very difficult to understand, it does not follow the trends many of us are used to in the West.

 

One example is the one that I have experienced - my homes in both the UK and Thailand are in rural areas.  If a new motorway was announced near my UK home, property values would plummet.

 

When the M6 was announced near my home in Khao Yai, land prices doubled, virtually overnight.

 

What we are talking about here is the potential for a foreigner to sell their home within the 12 month period allowed after inheritance.  The foreigner may well have paid more for the land than a Thai would be prepared to and is likely to have built a house of higher spec than is normal for the area.

 

It would not be so unusual for a foreigner in that postion to place a higher value on their property than its actually worth.  The likelihood is that they may well struggle to sell their property in those circumstances.

 

However, peculiarities in the Thai property market overall mean that it is not at all unusual for a reasonably priced property to take more than 12 months to sell.  That does not mean the property is necessarily over-priced - its just Thailand.

 

In the 9 years that I've lived near Khao Yai, I've seen several properties take well over 12 months to sell. The price of at least one of those was actually increased due to local property values increasing.

 

Property values in Thailand often confound the maxim that the value of a property is what it will sell for. You just cannot apply that in the country.

[brianthainess]

Well I expect I will die before my wife, but she has told her kids, that if she dies first to let me live here, and have a new lady if I want. Whether that pans out or not I'm not really bothered I'd just rent somewhere else, but I believe they would honor her wishes. They have their own house and I'm 73 next month. 

[mogandave]

17 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

I have tried to be helpful, not engage in an argument.

 

If you feel you understand the Thai property market better than I do - hat's off to you.

So when you make (apparently) false claims  you’re just trying to be helpful, but when I ask you for clarification, I’m being argumentative, got it. 

 

Properties priced significantly higher than market value do not sell anywhere. 

[khunPer]

On 3/24/2024 at 2:59 AM, lopburi3 said:

You have no rights to a girlfriends property.

Yes, you have, if the girlfriend makes a last will.

[Tazmo]

In my situation, the House and land that me and my Thai partner live in, is as usual in her name.

 

However we visited the local Land Registry Office and applied for me to continue living there if she passes before me.

 

We had to submit several relevant documents.

 

In conclusion, I have a document that states, if my wife passes before me, I can live there indefinitely. I can also rent the property. But I cannot sell it.

 

 This is all very recent. My Partner will get the document translated into English and I would be happy to post it here.

 

[cowellandrew]

My house is in my sister inlaws name cant really remember how that happened it was 35 years ago,

[MangoKorat]

15 hours ago, mogandave said:

So when you make (apparently) false claims  you’re just trying to be helpful, but when I ask you for clarification, I’m being argumentative, got it. 

 

Properties priced significantly higher than market value do not sell anywhere. 

I give up, you clearly haven't understood a word I've said.

[MangoKorat]

9 hours ago, Tazmo said:

In my situation, the House and land that me and my Thai partner live in, is as usual in her name.

 

However we visited the local Land Registry Office and applied for me to continue living there if she passes before me.

 

We had to submit several relevant documents.

 

In conclusion, I have a document that states, if my wife passes before me, I can live there indefinitely. I can also rent the property. But I cannot sell it.

 

 This is all very recent. My Partner will get the document translated into English and I would be happy to post it here.

 

Interesting - not something I've heard of before - although it sounds very much like a Usufruct. In most cases, a Usufruct would convey the same rights.

 

Whatever it is, if you haven't already, I'd recommend you get it checked over by a good Thai lawyer before you put your trust in it.  The Thai courts have been known to overule other types of contract, even though they are registered at the Land Office.

 

The bottom line is, if a contract doesn't comply with Thai law it can be challenged and is likely to be deemed invalid if it is.  The Land Office may well tell you it complies but they are not either lawyers or judges.

[MangoKorat]

One thing that has just occurred to me relates to the position in these cases regarding wills and transfer/inheritance taxes.

 

To the best of my knowledge, if a wife leaves a property to her husband in a will, there is no transfer tax payable, partly because the property is not in fact transferred and partly because there is no transfer tax on inherited property in most cases. If that husband is a foreigner, he is not able to become the registered owner of the property and must arrange for it to be sold within 12 months.  That sale would be liable for transfer tax.

 

If that foreigner relies on a Usufruct agreement to protect their tenure, that agreement would almost certainly either severely reduce the value of the property or make it unsaleable.

 

Therefore, if all the foreigner wants is to be able to stay in the property after the death of their Thai wife and not have to sell it - it may be better to protect that position by way of a Usufruct Agreement and for the wife to leave the property to a relative.  As far as I know there is no transfer tax or inheritance tax payable on a property that is inherited by certain members of the deceased's family. The Usufruct remains in place no matter who the property is transferred to - the relative would have to respect that.

 

However, if the foreigner, tries to transfer it to one of his wife's relatives after her death, not only would there be transfer taxes to pay, the relative may be due to some form of capital gains/gift tax. OK, so maybe they're getting a valuable property given to them but they may not too happy with having to (or indeed be able to) pay tax on it and will probably look to the foreigner to do that.

 

If you want to cut and run with cash following your wife's death then just agree to end your Usufruct and sell the property.  If the money doesn't bother you and you just want to be able to continue living in your home - sort out the will/tax issues.

 

I'm not sure on any of the above and there may be some complex tax issues. Taxes are not the same in Thailand as they are in the West and I am aware that inheritance/gift taxes are rare but it may be sensible for anyone in this position to check this out before the couple decide on the content of any will.  There will almost certainly be differences in the liability for transfer tax depending on which route is taken.

Edited March 27 by MangoKorat

[donx]

21 hours ago, cowellandrew said:

My house is in my sister inlaws name cant really remember how that happened it was 35 years ago,

That happened because 35 years ago, a Thai woman married to a foreign man was prohibited from owning property if acquired after marriage. The law changed sometime around 1999. I know this because I knew a man married to a Thai back in 1995 and he said his brother-in-law owned "his" house because he and his wife couldn't own it. 

[mogandave]

19 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

I give up, you clearly haven't understood a word I've said.

That’s what I thought.

[john donson]

that is or will be a big surprise for all the dudes claiming they have houses and land

 

while they actually have nothing

 

wait till the family comes to live in their new property after the thai misses dies

 

or divorces you, whatever comes first

[Will B Good]

Should my wife pass before me I'll be far too busy partying (celebrating her life I mean) to care what happens to the land and house.

Edited March 29 by Will B Good

[Liverpool Lou]

On 3/24/2024 at 6:42 AM, Peterw42 said:

At the end of the day, you could always sell the house to a company you set up.

Not legally, he couldn't, if the sole purpose of the company was to circumvent Thai land ownership laws,

[Hanuman2547]

When my Thai wife passed away, our house in Bangkok and others elsewhere were then transferred to our oldest luk krung son who had just turned 20 and has Thai citizenship.  It was fairly easy to do.  

[TigerCat]

Tazmo - please do post that.