New tax laws

[fulhamster]

20 hours ago, Chivas said:

You can bet your Bottom Dollar that before 2024 is out there will have been a complete reversal and all will be forgotten as in a bad dream

 

 

Hopefully sooner rather than later as I won't be bringing any of my pension over until the whole thing is finally clarified.

Brought over a year's worth in December so can sit it out

[ballpoint]

7 hours ago, recom273 said:

Not true. 
 

Our local immigration, for a time, insisted upon seeing a tax receipt before issuing subsequent non-b visa extensions at the same school.

 

They also wish to see a teachers permit / waiver and also a work permit even though the immigration service is not connected with the Labour office or teachers council. They can be an effective way of enforcing the law (they also can be an easy agency to navigate around)
 

In my understanding, immigration had no interest in the amount on the tax receipt but they did want to see one. As this is Thailand, the law wasn’t always enforced, teachers from certain schools didn’t need to include a receipt and if you were applying for an extension for a new school, even though you were known to them previously there was no need to show proof of payment. 

 

I agree with you that immigration do liaise with the Revenue Department, though in your case, you're referring to an extension of stay based on employment, where evidence of tax being paid is a valid request.  For those of us who are retired there has been no requirement to show any tax paperwork when doing an extension.  However, should the RD have some concerns about your tax status here as a retiree (or even just pick you at random for an audit), they can, and will, flag your passport so it comes up on the immigration computer.  The onus is then on you to get that flag removed before you are allowed to leave the country, and, in theory, even get an extension.  As I have posted here on other threads, this happened to me when they decided to audit my taxes.  Luckily my local immigration saw the catch 22 between not giving me an extension and not allowing me to leave the country, so did extend my permission to stay while I sorted it out.  They could have just given me a short term extension while I sorted it out, but gave the full year.  From what I've heard, other offices are not as lenient.

 

There was no problem with my taxes.  I was doing the valid, at the time, not transferring money until the year after it was earned tactic, however, trying to find out the exact tax office responsible took some time - it was a Bangkok one, not my home province, and then even when they were satisfied, the flag remained.  I had to visit the immigration office in Soi Suan Plu, where the black lists are controlled, to do so.  That part was simple though.  Once I'd found the right office I explained what had happened and the woman got on her computer and removed it there and then.

[fulhamster]

15 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Feel free to ask questions or read the tax guide, or both

 

 

Have we had clarification of "Employment" ?

What most of us need to know is whether this includes pensions from our home countries

Thanks

 

[ballpoint]

12 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

It's been some time since this was first mentioned in the long tax thread, it was so because one posters wife had applied for one of the roles. Much more than that I can't tell you anything further since nobody has raised it since.

 

I personally would never deal with my Amphur or tessaban Revenue office, I only ever go to District which is in the center of Chiang Mai and the levels of English there are good, they are very helpful and knowledgable.

 

I'm not doubting, or arguing with you, just pointing out my experience.  As per my post above, I've been through the tax system here.  The office in the centre of Chiang Mai is likely the provincial one though.  A district office would be one in, say, Fang or Chiang Dao.  As I said, I can very well see the possibility of each provincial office hiring a tax attorney, who hopefully speaks English.  I have yet to find an English speaker in my own provincial office, which, again as I said, has told me that I must deal with my home district - rather like immigration making you go to the office covering your location.  This being Thailand, of course each province probably has its own rules on this though. 

 

I'd imagine that for those living in the bigger centres, with large expat populations, English speakers will be available to deal with the influx of bewildered retirees this law amendment will maybe cause.  But things may not be so simple for those living upcountry.  Having said that, when I traced the location of the flag on my passport, described above, to Bangkok District 3, which has two offices (and of course, I went to the wrong one first, who knew nothing at all about my situation) I was also surprised to find nobody I dealt with in either - including some pretty senior people, spoke English to any level of competence.  Even offices in the middle of Bangkok won't be able to deal with English only speakers at present.  Changes will have to be made on both sides.  As I said in my earlier post, I can easily see the added costs outweighing any additional tax revenue in many offices.  Especially if all these English speaking tax attorneys are doing is telling pensioners they don't have to file a return.

[Mike Lister]

51 minutes ago, fulhamster said:

Have we had clarification of "Employment" ?

What most of us need to know is whether this includes pensions from our home countries

Thanks

 

You can ignore the word "employment" on the link to the tax guide, it displays that way as a result of something to do with forum software but we have been unable to find out the reason why. I think it picks up a link from somewhere in the document but we don't know which one.

[Mike Lister]

36 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

 

I'm not doubting, or arguing with you, just pointing out my experience.  As per my post above, I've been through the tax system here.  The office in the centre of Chiang Mai is likely the provincial one though.  A district office would be one in, say, Fang or Chiang Dao.  As I said, I can very well see the possibility of each provincial office hiring a tax attorney, who hopefully speaks English.  I have yet to find an English speaker in my own provincial office, which, again as I said, has told me that I must deal with my home district - rather like immigration making you go to the office covering your location.  This being Thailand, of course each province probably has its own rules on this though. 

 

I'd imagine that for those living in the bigger centres, with large expat populations, English speakers will be available to deal with the influx of bewildered retirees this law amendment will maybe cause.  But things may not be so simple for those living upcountry.  Having said that, when I traced the location of the flag on my passport, described above, to Bangkok District 3, which has two offices (and of course, I went to the wrong one first, who knew nothing at all about my situation) I was also surprised to find nobody I dealt with in either - including some pretty senior people, spoke English to any level of competence.  Even offices in the middle of Bangkok won't be able to deal with English only speakers at present.  Changes will have to be made on both sides.  As I said in my earlier post, I can easily see the added costs outweighing any additional tax revenue in many offices.  Especially if all these English speaking tax attorneys are doing is telling pensioners they don't have to file a return.

The offices I use in Chiang Mai are the District offices 1 & 2 which are quite large and contain around 50 staff I guess. The Regional office is elsewhere in the city. I'm sorry I can't speak top the structure or capabilities at the more rural offices.

[scorecard]

15 hours ago, scorecard said:

The basic deductions for an over 65 year old are 190k for over age 65 years plus 60k personal allowance. There is also a zero tax rated band of 150k. If the difference between those two allowances and the 500k you mention is derived from ANY source that is not covered by a DTA and/or is taxed at a lower rate in the home country than it is in Thailand, the income is assessable to Thai tax. Not registering for a TIN and not filing taxes to declare that income, assuming the person was Thai tax resident, means that person is guilty of tax evasion for which there are harsh penalties.

 

I make an example:

- Receive Oz OAP every 4 weeks by bank transfer, about 460,000Baht.

Less allowances in the Thai tax system:

- Age allowance 190,000Baht because over 65,

- Personal allowance 60,000Baht

- Threshhold of 150,000Baht.

TOTAL 400,000Baht

Deduct 400,000BAht from 460,000Baht = 60,000

I receive no other taxable income.

Therefore no tax payable (my understanding).

 

I've had a Thai personal tax number for over 25 years, now retired. 

 

I live in Thailand permanently (Thai PR for 26 years) so where do I stand re tax resident / non-resident? 

I've tried to find a Rev. Dept. website (in English) which quotes these various allowances but no luck.

 

I'm wondering if there's an allowance for supporting grand childen (e.g. school fees), any comments appreciated. Asking for myself and 2 farang friends.  

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, scorecard said:

I've tried to find a Rev. Dept. website (in English) which quotes these various allowances but no luck.

 

I'm wondering if there's an allowance for supporting grand childen (e.g. school fees), any comments appreciated. Asking for myself and 2 farang friends.  

I don't believe it extends to grandchildren. Children can be counted as a deduction, up to age 26, as long as in full time education. 

 

Here's the link to the PWC 2023/2024 tax guide, you'll find all the deductions/exemptions in there.

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2023-24.pdf

[scorecard]

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't believe it extends to grandchildren. Children can be counted as a deduction, up to age 26, as long as in full time education. 

 

Here's the link to the PWC 2023/2024 tax guide, you'll find all the deductions/exemptions in there.

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2023-24.pdf

Thanks, appreciated, and I'm guessing other members will very likely also be interested in this. 

[Everyman]

8 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I agree, and have a friend in Chiang Mai in that position.

I am not getting my knickers in a twist until there is evidence of:

 

1/ Banks deducting tax on international transfers.

or

2/ Immigration refusing visa extension applications that do not have a tax number.

 

This exact thing. If neither of these two scenarios happen then it’s all piss and hot air. 

 

People are suddenly so concerned about the exact letter of the law in Thailand. And yet..,

 

Its illegal to ride in a car without a seatbelt, to smoke in bars, to ride a motorcycle on the sidewalk, prostitution is illegal, bribery is illegal, selling beer at 3PM is illegal, vaping is illegal, street vendors are illegal, etc. Nobody cares about the letter of the law when it comes to that. Nobody is worried a cop in going to give them a 20,000 baht find for smoking in a bar in Nana. Yet a single announcement about a rule change and everyone has got a spring in their ass.

 

Its Thailand. It’s not about the law, it’s about enforcement. And there is no evidence of any enforcement at all, so who cares. 

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Thanks, appreciated, and I'm guessing other members will very likely also be interested in this. 

Nooo, they can't have it, it's just for you. 🙂

[garygooner]

11 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

Quite possibly. Maybe unlikely but who knows. For me, I'm on Non-O retired but never spend more than 180 days in Thailand. Wonder how that might affect me.

The Doom & Gloom merchants might say:  a) you don't have a tax form so you can't extend your visa again.

b)  you don't have a tax form so you can't have a bank account anymore.

These will 'probably' not happen however. 

[superal]

20 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

From a Revenue perspective, this rule change is quite minor. Traditionally, the Revenue do not make formal public announcements about such things, instead, the change is announced through formal channels and the news picked up by interested parties such as the major tax consultancies like PW, Sherrings and Mazars. Those consultancies have attended briefing sessions held by the Revenue and have fielded questions and received answers, all of which have been published. Here is one such Q&A:

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

 

You have to remember that only a small percentage of the population is interested in this, it isn't like in the West where a change of this nature impacts almost everyone.

Thanks for the link . However I must pick you up when you say " small percentage are interested in this . 

Fact , between 3 & 4 million expats live in Thailand I.e. 5-6 % of the population . I accept that this number will not just be from the western world . Maybe more important is the fact that many expats living in Thailand have only their State pensions . It means a frugal life style and any chunk of tax paid to the Thai  inland revenue may have a significant effect . Also bearing in mind that any tax is payable in a lump sum and not deducted on a weekly / monthly basis . It may also involve the hiring of an accredited Thai accountant which is another fee . 

It is for the above reasons that I am surprised that this event is not more prominent .

[Mike Lister]

29 minutes ago, superal said:

Thanks for the link . However I must pick you up when you say " small percentage are interested in this . 

Fact , between 3 & 4 million expats live in Thailand I.e. 5-6 % of the population . I accept that this number will not just be from the western world . Maybe more important is the fact that many expats living in Thailand have only their State pensions . It means a frugal life style and any chunk of tax paid to the Thai  inland revenue may have a significant effect . Also bearing in mind that any tax is payable in a lump sum and not deducted on a weekly / monthly basis . It may also involve the hiring of an accredited Thai accountant which is another fee . 

It is for the above reasons that I am surprised that this event is not more prominent .

Western expats are about 300k of that 4 mill., the rest are from neighboring countries. That is about 0.5% of the population.

[topt]

44 minutes ago, superal said:

It is for the above reasons that I am surprised that this event is not more prominent .

For you to say that it must mean that you do not follow or participate much in AN in either this section or the news section since September. There is a huge news thread which I think runs to over 7k posts started back in September when the rule change was announced. 

In fact here it is -

https://aseannow.com/topic/1306896-thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

 

Many other threads also.

 

52 minutes ago, superal said:

Maybe more important is the fact that many expats living in Thailand have only their State pensions .

Got any credible figures on that.......or is that another "fact" that you have plucked out of nowhere? 

Perhaps you also haven't realised that if one have been remitting income (pension money) in the year earned (probably every month) then nothing for them has theoretically changed.......So if one thinks they need to submit a tax return now then it has always been the case........

[superal]

2 hours ago, topt said:

For you to say that it must mean that you do not follow or participate much in AN in either this section or the news section since September. There is a huge news thread which I think runs to over 7k posts started back in September when the rule change was announced. 

In fact here it is -

https://aseannow.com/topic/1306896-thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

 

Many other threads also.

 

Got any credible figures on that.......or is that another "fact" that you have plucked out of nowhere? 

Perhaps you also haven't realised that if one have been remitting income (pension money) in the year earned (probably every month) then nothing for them has theoretically changed.......So if one thinks they need to submit a tax return now then it has always been the case........

Wrong , it started this year , also I was not in Thailand last September . If you have had enough of the topic don't read it . Go and be pedantic elsewhere .

[Danderman123]

On 3/29/2024 at 11:29 AM, jvs said:

Like i said,wait and see.

We live in the land of flip flops.

I don't think we will see a flip flop on this issue.

 

More probable would be the RD realizing what a mess this is, and quietly doing nothing about it.

 

The alternative is to enforce the law by randomly selecting some Farangs to make an example out of them. If someone here posted a horror story about the RD requiring them to provide a tax return, or go to the monkeyhouse, then lots of people here would file a tax return.

[Tony M]

Can I ask for clarification on a couple of points :

 

I understand (I read on one of the threads) that savings overseas, prior to 1/1/24, will not be taxable when transferred into Thailand.  If that is so, and the savings are considerable, will it be necessary to file a tax return as it would not seem to be assessable income ?

 

If it is not necessary to file a tax return  under the above circumstances, and Immigration decides that they wish to see evidence of tax paid before granting an extension of stay, how will we evidence to Immigration that we didn't need to file a tax return as we had been transferring savings ?

[Mike Lister]

16 minutes ago, Tony M said:

Can I ask for clarification on a couple of points :

 

I understand (I read on one of the threads) that savings overseas, prior to 1/1/24, will not be taxable when transferred into Thailand.  If that is so, and the savings are considerable, will it be necessary to file a tax return as it would not seem to be assessable income ?

 

If it is not necessary to file a tax return  under the above circumstances, and Immigration decides that they wish to see evidence of tax paid before granting an extension of stay, how will we evidence to Immigration that we didn't need to file a tax return as we had been transferring savings ?

1. No, not necessary

 

2. Immigration don't require this, don't try and second guess what might happen, cross that bridge when you come to it.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

I don't think we will see a flip flop on this issue.

 

More probable would be the RD realizing what a mess this is, and quietly doing nothing about it.

 

The alternative is to enforce the law by randomly selecting some Farangs to make an example out of them. If someone here posted a horror story about the RD requiring them to provide a tax return, or go to the monkeyhouse, then lots of people here would file a tax return.

 

Also true the initial reporting, e.g. on AseanNow and other news reports, was less than clear / less than complete / less than structured, therefore confusion from day one. 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

Also true the initial reporting, e.g. on AseanNow and other news reports, was less than clear / less than complete / less than structured, therefore confusion from day one. 

There is a long thread about tax that was started way back when but it kept going round in circles and became far too long and convoluted to be understandable. It took a while to get control of the subject but I think that was finally achieved, although not to everyone's satisfaction! I think the debate has been structured since the start of the year and that people are now finally beginning to understand the issues.

[Tony M]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

1. No, not necessary

 

2. Immigration don't require this, don't try and second guess what might happen, cross that bridge when you come to it.

 

Thank you for the clarification. And, yes, it's a bridge to be crossed sometime.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Tony M said:

If it is not necessary to file a tax return  under the above circumstances, and Immigration decides that they wish to see evidence of tax paid before granting an extension of stay, how will we evidence to Immigration that we didn't need to file a tax return as we had been transferring savings ?

 

Just have good records of all your financial balances on 31 Dec 2023. This is the amount of non assessable income you can bring into Thailand going forward, to be joined with any subsequent non assessable income, like govt pensions exempted by DTA. The fungibility of money is your friend.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

There is a long thread about tax that was started way back when but it kept going round in circles and became far too long and convoluted to be understandable. It took a while to get control of the subject but I think that was finally achieved, although not to everyone's satisfaction! I think the debate has been structured since the start of the year and that people are now finally beginning to understand the issues.

Agree, and thanks for the devoted work.

[recom273]

21 hours ago, ballpoint said:

 

I agree with you that immigration do liaise with the Revenue Department ..  

 

For those of us who are retired there has been no requirement to show any tax paperwork when doing an extension. ...

 

They don't liase, immigration just enforce. 

 

We don't know what will be required in the future and how this will be enforced, just replying to the poster who thinks (sorry cant think of the actual usage) that immigration won't be enforcing RD's policy. It's interesting to know that the RD can flag a passport via the immigration system.

 

ETS: Also, I would point out that our local immigration was a law until themselves, they created different procedures to other provinces and the tax receipt was only enforced this for a couple of years before losing interest. 

[superal]

On 3/30/2024 at 7:17 PM, Mike Lister said:

There is a long thread about tax that was started way back when but it kept going round in circles and became far too long and convoluted to be understandable. It took a while to get control of the subject but I think that was finally achieved, although not to everyone's satisfaction! I think the debate has been structured since the start of the year and that people are now finally beginning to understand the issues.

Thanks for your input Mike . Myself and UK friends were unaware of this new Thai tax law and so I posted it for some enlightenment . So as a summary , the new tax laws are written but yet to be shown in the Royal Gazette . As far as I know , there has been no announcement from the British Embassy . ( but I do not want to rock the boat ) . That leaves us in a state of limbo where we just have to sit back and wait . Unless you know different ?

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, superal said:

Thanks for your input Mike . Myself and UK friends were unaware of this new Thai tax law and so I posted it for some enlightenment . So as a summary , the new tax laws are written but yet to be shown in the Royal Gazette . As far as I know , there has been no announcement from the British Embassy . ( but I do not want to rock the boat ) . That leaves us in a state of limbo where we just have to sit back and wait . Unless you know different ?

There is no new law, only an operational change and a new interpretation of existing law, ergo, there is no need to gazette the change, any announcements have already been made via Q and A sessions with the tax consultancies.

[Tony M]

On 3/30/2024 at 6:00 PM, Mike Lister said:

1. No, not necessary

 

2. Immigration don't require this, don't try and second guess what might happen, cross that bridge when you come to it.

 

Mike, re your  point 1 response. I have seen this, from a Thai law firm :
 

The new amendment to the Revenue Code in Thailand, which will come into effect on January 1, 2024, requires tax residents of Thailand to declare all of their overseas income, regardless of where it is earned. However, this does not necessarily mean that foreigners will have to pay more taxes in Thailand.

 

Under double taxation treaties (DTTs), Thailand has agreements with many countries to avoid double taxation on income. This means that if a foreigner is already paying taxes on their overseas income in another country, they may be exempt from paying taxes on that income in Thailand.

 

To take advantage of a DTT, foreigners will need to declare their overseas income to the Thai Revenue Department and provide documentation to prove that they have already paid taxes on that income in the other country.

Difference between declaring and paying taxes

Declaring taxes means reporting your income to the tax authorities. Paying taxes means actually remitting money to the government.

 

Under the new amendment to the Revenue Code, all tax residents of Thailand will be required to declare their overseas income, regardless of whether or not they are exempt from paying taxes on that income. However, foreigners who are exempt from paying taxes on their overseas income will not actually have to pay any taxes to the Thai government.

 

Doesn't that mean that a tax return must be submitted anyway ?

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Tony M said:

 

Mike, re your  point 1 response. I have seen this, from a Thai law firm :
 

The new amendment to the Revenue Code in Thailand, which will come into effect on January 1, 2024, requires tax residents of Thailand to declare all of their overseas income, regardless of where it is earned. However, this does not necessarily mean that foreigners will have to pay more taxes in Thailand.

 

Under double taxation treaties (DTTs), Thailand has agreements with many countries to avoid double taxation on income. This means that if a foreigner is already paying taxes on their overseas income in another country, they may be exempt from paying taxes on that income in Thailand.

 

To take advantage of a DTT, foreigners will need to declare their overseas income to the Thai Revenue Department and provide documentation to prove that they have already paid taxes on that income in the other country.

Difference between declaring and paying taxes

Declaring taxes means reporting your income to the tax authorities. Paying taxes means actually remitting money to the government.

 

Under the new amendment to the Revenue Code, all tax residents of Thailand will be required to declare their overseas income, regardless of whether or not they are exempt from paying taxes on that income. However, foreigners who are exempt from paying taxes on their overseas income will not actually have to pay any taxes to the Thai government.

 

Doesn't that mean that a tax return must be submitted anyway ?

 

If you are 100% certain that your income is exempt by virtue of a tax treaty (DTA), there is no need to include that income on a Thai tax return, simply because there does not appear to be anywhere to put such information at present (this may change as the forms are redesigned). If it helps you, I do exactly this with some income I receive from US SSc each year, instead I only report income from other countries which is not exempt. In the past, when I have sat with Revenue staff to enter my income details into their online system, they have ignored any reference to my DTA exempt income, albeit I have declared the income to them.

 

If by not reporting your DTA exempt income, that means you do not have enough assessable income to meet the reporting threshold and doesn't warrant filing a tax return, then don't (there is no penalty for not filing a return, when no tax is due). If later, the Thai Revenue asks you why you didn't file and queries your DTA exempt income, be prepared to prove your earlier belief regarding the DTA exemption. 

 

 

 

 

[Tony M]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

 

If you are 100% certain that your income is exempt by virtue of a tax treaty (DTA), there is no need to include that income on a Thai tax return, simply because there does not appear to be anywhere to put such information at present (this may change as the forms are redesigned). If it helps you, I do exactly this with some income I receive from US SSc each year, instead I only report income from other countries which is not exempt. In the past, when I have sat with Revenue staff to enter my income details into their online system, they have ignored any reference to my DTA exempt income, albeit I have declared the income to them.

 

If by not reporting your DTA exempt income, that means you do not have enough assessable income to meet the reporting threshold and doesn't warrant filing a tax return, then don't (there is no penalty for not filing a return, when no tax is due). If later, the Thai Revenue asks you why you didn't file and queries your DTA exempt income, be prepared to prove your earlier belief regarding the DTA exemption. 

 

 

 

 

 

Understood. I am intending/hoping to use savings (accrued pre-1/1/24), which is obviously different from DTA exempt income ?  So, no need to "declare" anything at all because, as you say, there doesn't seem to be anywhere to declare it ?