New tax laws

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Tony M said:

 

Understood. I am intending/hoping to use savings (accrued pre-1/1/24), which is obviously different from DTA exempt income ?  So, no need to "declare" anything at all because, as you say, there doesn't seem to be anywhere to declare it ?

Correct

[Tony M]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Correct

 

Many  thanks, Mike. You're doing a great job for us all !

[topt]

6 hours ago, Tony M said:

The new amendment to the Revenue Code in Thailand, which will come into effect on January 1, 2024, requires tax residents of Thailand to declare all of their overseas income, regardless of where it is earned.

Isn't this fundamentally incorrect anyway unless preceded by a statement about remitted income?

My understanding is that the rule change is not about taxing tax residents on world wide income.........

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, topt said:

Isn't this fundamentally incorrect anyway unless preceded by a statement about remitted income?

My understanding is that the rule change is not about taxing tax residents on world wide income.........

Correct 

[JimGant]

8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

If by not reporting your DTA exempt income, that means you do not have enough assessable income to meet the reporting threshold and doesn't warrant filing a tax return, then don't (there is no penalty for not filing a return, when no tax is due).

 

The official reporting threshold is having 120k (220 married) of assessable income. But, for someone over 65, with a TEDA of 500k, you have no taxable income until assessable income exceeds 500k. Thus, with assessable income up to 500k, there is no tax due. And, as you said: "There is no penalty for not filing a return, when no tax is due."

 

So, now that you're no longer an employee of AN, and thus have no further 'tow the legal line' responsibility to AN -- are you now recommending that common sense says: Don't waste your time filing a Thai tax return if you have no taxable income, thus no taxes owed, thus no possible fines or penalties?

[Mike Lister]

19 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

The official reporting threshold is having 120k (220 married) of assessable income. But, for someone over 65, with a TEDA of 500k, you have no taxable income until assessable income exceeds 500k. Thus, with assessable income up to 500k, there is no tax due. And, as you said: "There is no penalty for not filing a return, when no tax is due."

 

So, now that you're no longer an employee of AN, and thus have no further 'tow the legal line' responsibility to AN -- are you now recommending that common sense says: Don't waste your time filing a Thai tax return if you have no taxable income, thus no taxes owed, thus no possible fines or penalties?

It's not about AN, that is a decision individuals must make and shouldn't be advised.

[xeniv23]

On 3/29/2024 at 10:30 AM, Liquorice said:

You do realise that in order to pay or reclaim tax in Thailand, you firstly have to be registered for tax purposes and be issued a TIN for identification purposes.

That's just it in a nutshell.  You could be doing your annual extension exercise and suddenly the IO says what is your Thai TIN?  The point being that you could be ambushed with this.  It may not even be right.  What is right seems, in my opinion, not that important when they are have got you at their desk.  The IOs at Phuket seem to have a particular talent for focusing on some small detail near the end of the process and start yelling at you because you don't know some esoteric detail that's in Thai to begin with.  Chain jerking the Falang seems a popular sport.  The tax thing just widens the scope and pressure immensely.  

[JimGant]

On 4/2/2024 at 2:37 PM, Mike Lister said:

It's not about AN, that is a decision individuals must make and shouldn't be advised.

Shouldn't be advised!?. You're kidding. Folks reading these tax threads certainly are looking for advise. The waters are still so muddy on all this new tax rumor that it's impossible to have a definitive thread on what's what -- and to "lock" a thread to make it definitive, by disallowing further argument, is ridiculous.

 

Anyway, in a situation like, do I file 'cause my assessable income exceeds 120k, and the law says so -- or do I not, 'cause I have not taxable income and there's no penalty for not filing -- is a question begging for advice. At least a "pros" and "con" discussion of this is warranted.

 

Without such, all these tax threads, spewing forth much rumor and speculation, are pure crap.

[Mike Lister]

28 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Shouldn't be advised!?. You're kidding. Folks reading these tax threads certainly are looking for advise. The waters are still so muddy on all this new tax rumor that it's impossible to have a definitive thread on what's what -- and to "lock" a thread to make it definitive, by disallowing further argument, is ridiculous.

 

Anyway, in a situation like, do I file 'cause my assessable income exceeds 120k, and the law says so -- or do I not, 'cause I have not taxable income and there's no penalty for not filing -- is a question begging for advice. At least a "pros" and "con" discussion of this is warranted.

 

Without such, all these tax threads, spewing forth much rumor and speculation, are pure crap.

 

No I'm not kidding, I don't think those decisions should be proscribed, it's down to individuals how they want to play it, abide by the law or flirt the law because there is no penalty!

 

And you say that people do want advice which is why they come here. Todate, they haven't had any from the long thread because that's been full of circular debate, long hale page rants, discussions about CRS and gawd knows what else! It's only been since January that the Simple Guide thread has been where people have been prepared to field simple questions about the basics because they knew they would get help. 

 

The long tax thread has existed since September and was always used to debate Thai tax rules, posters complained in January that it might be closed and insisted it be left open for debate, so it was.

 

I started the Simple Tax Guide in January with a specific purpose in mind, which was NEVER about debating, in fact, debate was not allowed, according to the rules that were posted in that thread at the time and several times subsequently. The purpose of that thread was to present known or assumed fact and to allocate unknows to the list at the end of the Tax Guide. 

 

Now that the Simple Guide thread has been closed, out of necessity, all the debate can continue to take place, in the long thread, which is where it always has been and where everyone wanted it to be. Going forward, that will not change.

 

An updated Tax Guide will be published shortly but will sit in a thread of its own and will be pinned and locked, any updates to it will replace whatever version exists at the time so there is only ever a single version available at one time. Why? So that readers who don't want the distraction of wading through pages of posts and lengthy debates, in order to find out the things that are known, can do so easily. If anyone wants to debate aspects of the new Tax Guide, they can do so in the long thread where all the debates on tax take place and always have taken place. 

 

Lastly, I personally offered my present role to various posters who have been associated with the tax guide and the simple tax thread and all refused. I also offered those posters different roles to contribute to the guide and they also refused. The chance to influence, steer and design the guide and the thread was offered and declined, I don't want hear it from anyone that they don't like what happened next, because they did. 

 

 

[superal]

20 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

No I'm not kidding, I don't think those decisions should be proscribed, it's down to individuals how they want to play it, abide by the law or flirt the law because there is no penalty!

 

And you say that people do want advice which is why they come here. Todate, they haven't had any from the long thread because that's been full of circular debate, long hale page rants, discussions about CRS and gawd knows what else! It's only been since January that the Simple Guide thread has been where people have been prepared to field simple questions about the basics because they knew they would get help. 

 

The long tax thread has existed since September and was always used to debate Thai tax rules, posters complained in January that it might be closed and insisted it be left open for debate, so it was.

 

I started the Simple Tax Guide in January with a specific purpose in mind, which was NEVER about debating, in fact, debate was not allowed, according to the rules that were posted in that thread at the time and several times subsequently. The purpose of that thread was to present known or assumed fact and to allocate unknows to the list at the end of the Tax Guide. 

 

Now that the Simple Guide thread has been closed, out of necessity, all the debate can continue to take place, in the long thread, which is where it always has been and where everyone wanted it to be. Going forward, that will not change.

 

An updated Tax Guide will be published shortly but will sit in a thread of its own and will be pinned and locked, any updates to it will replace whatever version exists at the time so there is only ever a single version available at one time. Why? So that readers who don't want the distraction of wading through pages of posts and lengthy debates, in order to find out the things that are known, can do so easily. If anyone wants to debate aspects of the new Tax Guide, they can do so in the long thread where all the debates on tax take place and always have taken place. 

 

Lastly, I personally offered my present role to various posters who have been associated with the tax guide and the simple tax thread and all refused. I also offered those posters different roles to contribute to the guide and they also refused. The chance to influence, steer and design the guide and the thread was offered and declined, I don't want hear it from anyone that they don't like what happened next, because they did. 

 

 

Thanks for the above info . Will you be the writer of the Tax Guide ? Will it have endorsements from the Thai Revenue Department ?

[Mike Lister]

38 minutes ago, superal said:

Thanks for the above info . Will you be the writer of the Tax Guide ? Will it have endorsements from the Thai Revenue Department ?

Nope can you imagine imagine trying to get those endorsements!

 

Anyways, the pont is now moot, I've grown tired of the trolls, abuse and the attacks, I've cancelled the new guide along with answering further questions, which only seem to provide ammo for troll attacks. You're on your own from here on

 

[Unknown1]

Hello, Mike! Sorry for a little off-topic but another thread is closed. Here you write that under old law it was very clear how to separate initial capital and income. But what exactly is clear there?
My situation is very similar. I had initial capital on US brokerage account on Jan 1 2023 and made more income in 2023. Let's say I had 100k initially, made 50k income and transferred 30k into Thailand from this account. Should I pay anything or not for 2023?

I've had several conversations about that and each one only makes me more confused. For example the last lawyer said something about pay tax on that amount with 0.5% rate?! And a lot of complete nonsense from others. I feel like they have no idea what to answer really.

[UKresonant]

On 4/2/2024 at 5:13 AM, Tony M said:

Mike, re your  point 1 response. I have seen this, from a Thai law firm :
 

The new amendment to the Revenue Code in Thailand, which will come into effect on January 1, 2024, requires tax residents of Thailand to declare all of their overseas income, regardless of where it is earned. However, this does not necessarily mean that foreigners will have to pay more taxes in Thailand.

 

Under double taxation treaties (DTTs), Thailand has agreements with many countries to avoid double taxation on income. This means that if a foreigner is already paying taxes on their overseas income in another country, they may be exempt from paying taxes on that income in Thailand.

 

To take advantage of a DTT, foreigners will need to declare their overseas income to the Thai Revenue Department and provide documentation to prove that they have already paid taxes on that income in the other country.

Difference between declaring and paying taxes

Declaring taxes means reporting your income to the tax authorities. Paying taxes means actually remitting money to the government.

 

Under the new amendment to the Revenue Code, all tax residents of Thailand will be required to declare their overseas income, regardless of whether or not they are exempt from paying taxes on that income. However, foreigners who are exempt from paying taxes on their overseas income will not actually have to pay any taxes to the Thai government.

 

Doesn't that mean that a tax return must be submitted anyway ?

 

Waiting on clarification, different tax firms are phrasing it slightly differently

 

Pensions only taxed in Home country, some say ignore some say declare.

 

For the DTA tax credit action 

 

Pension 1  £15k  £700 tax deducted at source in UK uses tax allowance

Pension 2  £  2k  £400 tax deducted at source in UK (Exempt under DTA)

Pension 3  £  2k   £400 tax deducted at source in UK

Pension 3  £  3K   £600 tax deducted at source in UK

 

One said Pension 2 is not included in declaration, another said it was???.

 

So Pension say 1  3 & 4 tax paid £1600 on £20k gross, remit the net of £15k gross to Thailand whilst resident and you would get £1200 credit relief. the way it was described. 

So the £13800 net remitted arrives in Thailand, the £1200 does not arrive as UK HMRC has that. 

What goes where on the filing and non-existent Tax credit form is still a Mystery!

Is the tax computation simultanious with the tax credit. or will they want us begging for Tax back from the UK.

 

(DTA 23 3) says UK tax paid should credit against Thai tax, but does that work or is it for Thai's working in the UK)

 

There was one Tax Expert on YT joking that their DTA text had to be dusted off! 

 

I'm not sure the Experts know for sure, in relation to DTA aspects, few if any worked examples.

 

Were quite clear on the most of the Tax requirements, thanks to Mike L's Guide, but the practical application of the DTA / credit relief  aspects and supporting documentation is still a bit wooly.

 

The written word is there, but the practical process going forward is still a bit foggy. 

 

[freeworld]

21 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Nope can you imagine imagine trying to get those endorsements!

 

Anyways, the pont is now moot, I've grown tired of the trolls, abuse and the attacks, I've cancelled the new guide along with answering further questions, which only seem to provide ammo for troll attacks. You're on your own from here on

 

Everyones financial sources and tax is different, as it is in most countries.

 

The only advice a potential tax payer should get is they are responsible for their own tax affairs and should read the tax codes, read the DTA or get the advice of a tax accountant or RD revenue officer.

[Mike Lister]

29 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Everyones financial sources and tax is different, as it is in most countries.

 

The only advice a potential tax payer should get is they are responsible for their own tax affairs and should read the tax codes, read the DTA or get the advice of a tax accountant or RD revenue officer.

There is a massive difference between giving advice and providing information, the tax guide is in the business of providing information not advice. 

 

As we have seen repeatedly, large numbers of AN members have frequently not understood the first thing about tax period, let alone Thai tax which has been a black hole. Many did not know the tax layers are stepped or that significant TEDA existed. Many did not know what a DTA was or how it impacted them personally. Many did not know what assessible income means. The aim of the tax guide has only ever been to explain those things, as it says at the beginning, it is a, "STARTING POINT for readers to manage their own tax affairs, and it will also provide links to many of the answers for those with simple tax affairs, especially the average pensioner", no more and no less. Many of the pensioners we've been helping offline, couldn't even begin to understand the contents of a DTA or the Revenue rules, even if they are in English, they wouldn't know where to start.

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

There is a massive difference between giving advice and providing information, the tax guide is in the business of providing information not advice. 

 

As we have seen repeatedly, large numbers of AN members have frequently not understood the first thing about tax period, let alone Thai tax which has been a black hole. Many did not know the tax layers are stepped or that significant TEDA existed. Many did not know what a DTA was or how it impacted them personally. Many did not know what assessible impact means. The aim of the tax guide has only ever been to explain those things, as it says at the beginning, it is a, "STARTING POINT for readers to manage their own tax affairs, and it will also provide links to many of the answers for those with simple tax affairs, especially the average pensioner", no more and no less.

I'm surprised people are still confused & asking questions of strangers for their taxes.  Info has been out for a while now, and if you can't figure it out, just use a tax advisor.  3 months in, and people still haven't sorted if they will have a tax liability.   Nothing like planning.

 

The one link kind of explained everything one needs to know.  Why does anyone need to ask questions after reading their DTA, and the excellent translated Thai tax code that was provided.  Both are fairly straight forward, and easy to understand.

 

Guessing these same folks didn't do their own taxes in home country, so just do the same here, use a tax consultant.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

I'm surprised people are still confused & asking questions of strangers for their taxes.  Info has been out for a while now, and if you can't figure it out, just use a tax advisor.  3 months in, and people still haven't sorted if they will have a tax liability.   Nothing like planning.

 

The one link kind of explained everything one needs to know.  Why does anyone need to ask questions after reading their DTA, and the excellent translated Thai tax code that was provided.  Both are fairly straight forward, and easy to understand.

 

Guessing these same folks didn't do their own taxes in home country, so just do the same here, use a tax consultant.

We've had requests for help from people who have NEVER had to deal with tax anywhere, mostly because it's all been taken care of for them by the government or their employer. We've also seen many people who simply don't understand where to start with reading the Revenue Guide and the DTA, it's just beyond them. 

[Mike Lister]

I said I wasn't going to but I've been persuaded to the contrary and will publish the new tax guide this morning. Nobody is forced to read it, nobody is forced to follow it but it's there for people who need it as a reference or a starting point and so far, several hundred people have.

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I said I wasn't going to but I've been pursued to the contrary and will publish the new tax guide this morning. Nobody is forced to read it, nobody is forced to follow it but it's there for people who need it as a reference or a starting point and so far, several hundred people have.

Appreciate all the work you've done, and info provided.  Very informative.   Personally, since a Yank, and Soc Sec not taxed, and only thing transferred into my Thai bank, I'm going to just wait & see, and not really file anything.

 

I extend visa Oct/Nov, so will ask then, if Imm will be requiring a new form to be completed/shown, for 2025 extension, concerning TH tax filing.  Guessing Imm won't know the answer, but I'll ask anyway.

 

Not going to try to fix what isn't broke, especially since I have no tax liability in TH.  Let them tell me, as long not reading about any penalty for not filing.

 

THANKS

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

I'm surprised people are still confused & asking questions of strangers for their taxes. 

 

I'm not. With wrong information being put out by some Thai law firms, and other organizations, what's to be believed? Example from an unnamed law firm:

 

Quote

The new amendment to the Revenue Code in Thailand, which will come into effect on January 1, 2024, requires tax residents of Thailand to declare all of their overseas income, regardless of where it is earned.

 

That's complete baloney. Thai RD is not interested in income that is not assessable, and thus not taxable. This would include all non remitted income; income from pre 2024; and income exempt per DTA. Plus, there's no place on a tax return to provide non assessable income -- so if you don't owe taxes, are they asking you to walk into a RD office with an Excel spreadsheet....

 

Quote

 To take advantage of a DTT, foreigners will need to declare their overseas income to the Thai Revenue Department and provide documentation to prove that they have already paid taxes on that income in the other country.

 

Ludicrous. Again, Thai RD is not interested in my US govt pension, exclusively taxable by the US. And they're not interested in my VA pension, which is not even taxable by home country -- so how could I provide documentation that taxes were paid on that income? They may be confusing some reports that, income taxed in home country is completely exempt from Thai taxes, if you show the home country tax return. This has nothing to do with a DTA, however; just a nice possibility to ease all this tax mess.

 

Anyway, too much disinformation making things confusing for the tax situation.

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

I'm not. With wrong information being put out by some Thai law firms, and other organizations, what's to be believed? Example from an unnamed law firm:

 

 

That's complete baloney. Thai RD is not interested in income that is not assessable, and thus not taxable. This would include all non remitted income; income from pre 2024; and income exempt per DTA. Plus, there's no place on a tax return to provide non assessable income -- so if you don't owe taxes, are they asking you to walk into a RD office with an Excel spreadsheet....

 

 

Ludicrous. Again, Thai RD is not interested in my US govt pension, exclusively taxable by the US. And they're not interested in my VA pension, which is not even taxable by home country -- so how could I provide documentation that taxes were paid on that income? They may be confusing some reports that, income taxed in home country is completely exempt from Thai taxes, if you show the home country tax return. This has nothing to do with a DTA, however; just a nice possibility to ease all this tax mess.

 

Anyway, too much disinformation making things confusing for the tax situation.

Just typical scare tactic marketing to get you into the office.   At our ages we should be able to see through that BS.

 

Read for yourself what the authorities put out, not info from salespersons.  Goes with everything, when wanting info, go to the official source.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, KhunLA said:

Just typical scare tactic marketing to get you into the office.   At our ages we should be able to see through that BS.

 

Read for yourself what the authorities put out, not info from salespersons.  Goes with everything, when wanting info, go to the official source.

Even that doesn't work that well at times. People in different parts of the country go to their local tax offices for information and the answers to the same questions are all different, based on where you are. 

[JimGant]

20 hours ago, Unknown1 said:

My situation is very similar. I had initial capital on US brokerage account on Jan 1 2023 and made more income in 2023. Let's say I had 100k initially, made 50k income and transferred 30k into Thailand from this account. Should I pay anything or not for 2023?

Until something is stated on how to treat co-mingled monies, my two-cents says, use FIFO. Thus, your oldest money, the principle, is where your 30k remitted money comes from. You're not going to get audited (certainly RD scarce resources will be reserved for the fat cats). But if you did, you certainly have a plausible explanation -- since until declared otherwise, FIFO is perfectly acceptable.

[JimGant]

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Read for yourself what the authorities put out, not info from salespersons.

 

At the beginning of all this, the authorities (which office, undefined) said: If you can show a home country tax return, plus a DTA with Thailand, you owe no taxes to Thailand. Not much further news on that, so maybe they had their toes and fingers crossed when they put that out.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Until something is stated on how to treat co-mingled monies, my two-cents says, use FIFO. Thus, your oldest money, the principle, is where your 30k remitted money comes from. You're not going to get audited (certainly RD scarce resources will be reserved for the fat cats). But if you did, you certainly have a plausible explanation -- since until declared otherwise, FIFO is perfectly acceptable.

You know this but others may not: LIFO and FIFO are intended for inventory management accounting rather than financial reporting, I don't know how extensively the practice will be accepted here, if at all.

[JimGant]

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

LIFO and FIFO are intended for inventory management accounting rather than financial reporting, I don't know how extensively the practice will be accepted here, if at all.

Yeah, they may eventually demand LIFO, or some kind of average. But until they decide, if they ever do, I say you're free to pick and choose, to your advantage. What advice do you have?

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Yeah, they may eventually demand LIFO, or some kind of average. But until they decide, if they ever do, I say you're free to pick and choose, to your advantage. What advice do you have?

I don't, really.

 

The recommendation I have made in the new Simple Tax Guide is as follows:

 

COMINGLED FUNDS

 

57) Funds from various sources that are all contained in the same bank account are referred to as commingled funds. Trying to account for them separately can be difficult, unless you keep complete records that show the individual sources of those funds. Much of this comes down to individual discipline and the ability to retain and file receipts and statements. Some tax authorities have policies regarding commingled funds, policies such as LIFO, (last in, first out) which is primarily an inventory management technique but can be used with commingled fund accounts. We are not aware of the TRD policy regarding commingled funds or even if one exists. If you hold funds in this way, the two options open to you currently are, keep detailed records that describe all the feeds into a commingled account, or separate the sources into their own accounts.

[KhunLA]

39 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

At the beginning of all this, the authorities (which office, undefined) said: If you can show a home country tax return, plus a DTA with Thailand, you owe no taxes to Thailand. Not much further news on that, so maybe they had their toes and fingers crossed when they put that out.

Actually the impression I get, not much has changed, except they closed the one loophole, for Thais mainly, of folks transferring money in from overseas, and avoiding the tax on it, as it wasn't reported to the Thai RD.   That just exposed the lax enforcement of tax code on expats.

 

Main difference is, now foreigner may realize, they may possibly have had to be filing tax returns in the past on income produced overseas, if here 180+ days.   Think most didn't know or even think about income taxes when moving to TH.   I know I didn't and if had known my income wasn't exempt, and a 20-25% (when unmarried) would be required, I probably wouldn't have come to TH.

 

Thankfully it is exempt (Soc Sec), so no need to consider moving, although with the deductions allowed, I'd only get hit with 10%, if I couldn't burry the rest with some loophole.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

Actually the impression I get, not much has changed, except they closed the one loophole, for Thais mainly, of folks transferring money in from overseas, and avoiding the tax on it, as it was reported to the Thai RD.   That just exposed the lax enforcement of tax code on expats.

 

Main difference is, now foreigner may realize, they may possibly have had to be filing tax returns in the past on income produced overseas, if here 180+ days.   Think most didn't know or even think about income taxes when moving to TH.   I know I didn't and if had known my income wasn't exempt, and a 20-25% (when unmarried) would be required, I probably wouldn't have come to TH.

 

Thankfully it is exempt (Soc Sec), so no need to consider moving, although with the deductions allowed, I'd only get hit with 10%, if I couldn't burry the rest with some loophole.

This is exactly the case. The word has finally got around and people have gone from ignorance to surprise to what if, to anger and now well into hypothesis.  Folks need to go back to basics and remember what happened rather than listen to all the video hype from sales guys trying to piggyback on the change.

[Unknown1]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Until something is stated on how to treat co-mingled monies, my two-cents says, use FIFO. Thus, your oldest money, the principle, is where your 30k remitted money comes from. You're not going to get audited (certainly RD scarce resources will be reserved for the fat cats). But if you did, you certainly have a plausible explanation -- since until declared otherwise, FIFO is perfectly acceptable.

Yes, my opinion is kinda same. But chance to get audited is not so low. Total transferred amount is few hundred thousand usd and I was asking RD about that, so they probably remember me.

 

I'm curious about possible penalties if RD has different opinion (fifo vs lifo). Because the correct method isn't written anywhere, isn't it? Even when I asked their lawyer, she couldn't answer and said something like "I should know myself (?!) where is the capital and the income".

 

To be honest I think that any confrontation with them is lose-lose situation with high risks. I'm thinking about pay now and try to clarify it later (deadline is 9th April, so no time now). Can I request a refund later if I believe that tax was paid by mistake? They probably won't return it unless proper documentation is provided. This looks like a "safe" decision.