Foreigners and their overseas income: what next?

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, QuantumQuandry said:

 

I certainly don't ask for love.  But something slightly above "barely tolerated as long as you give us enough money" would be an improvement.

List the things you want.

[QuantumQuandry]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

List the things you want.

 

The short answer is...stability.  In the rules and enforcement of rules, that affect foreigners.

[transam]

1 minute ago, quake said:

 

Ok so you have now broken our agreement.

So shut your gob tosser

 

 

That's not nice, Nige.........🤔

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, QuantumQuandry said:

 

The short answer is...stability.  In the rules and enforcement of rules, that affect foreigners.

That's reasonable and I can agree, I thought for a moment you were of those who say we should get access to government paid health care and reduced pricing on National Park visits etc.

[LivinLOS]

On 4/6/2024 at 5:39 PM, topt said:

 

 

I am surprised no one else has pulled you up on this as, unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying, potentially you are completely wrong......

 

Private pensions are taxable in the UK for a non resident irrespective of filing a P85. The only way you avoid tax on a private pension paid in the UK is if you take it offshore or the combined amount is less than the personal allowance. The state pension may be zero rated but is added to the total of income so effectively counts for your total tax base.

 

Any property rental amounts are also taxable and again a P85 has nothing to do with it.

 

You could start here - https://www.gov.uk/tax-uk-income-live-abroad

 

P85 detail - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/get-your-income-tax-right-if-youre-leaving-the-uk-p85

 

Please show me I am wrong........

 

First file P85.. Second get NT tax code (based on that fact).

Then UK pensions are tax free.. UNLESS its an armed forces or senior civil servant pension. Pension income is NOT 'domestic source' income like rental returns etc, it is not arising from a fixed UK asset.

 

How can I receive my UK pension overseas without paying tax in the UK?

Non-UK residents can apply directly to HMRC to obtain an NT code.

 

What is an NT code?

The NT stands for “nil-tax” and means that an individual is exempt from paying income tax on that specific income. In the case of non-residents this is because they are liable for tax in another country and, as per existing double-tax agreements between their country of residence and the UK, they are exempt from tax in the UK.

https://valiant-wealth.com/how-will-my-uk-pension-be-taxed-if-i-live-overseas/

[LivinLOS]

On 4/5/2024 at 11:46 AM, Mike Lister said:

For UK citizens, income that arises in the UK is taxable in the UK. If that income falls within the Personal Allowance then it will be zero rated. But if the State Pension should exceed the PA, (a political bombshell for whoever decided to make that happen), it will be taxable in the UK, under existing rules. 

Only income that comes from a fixed UK asset. Eg rental returns, forestry income, etc etc are always taxed at source as they arise from a UK based physical asset. UK employment depends on multile factors (location and residency at the time of the engagement, permanent establishment of the employer, etc but again is not 'always' UK (despite what the UK tax man tries to imply and make people believe) i have paid 100s of employee payrolls per week, 1000s of men a year, all UK employees, and the income tax was not paid in UK. 

Once a P85 is filed for non residence, you simply obtain an NT tax code and pensions (not armed forces or civil servants) are then not UK taxed. 

A successful application to HMRC would result in a change to your tax code, with an ‘NT’ Tax Code, applied as a non-resident. Your pension trustee would receive confirmation from HMRC of the change and income should be paid gross, without any tax deducted.
https://www.forthcapital.com/articles/uk-pension-income-for-expats-where-do-you-pay-tax-and-what-is-an-nt-tax-code

 

[Mike Lister]

28 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Only income that comes from a fixed UK asset. Eg rental returns, forestry income, etc etc are always taxed at source as they arise from a UK based physical asset. UK employment depends on multile factors (location and residency at the time of the engagement, permanent establishment of the employer, etc but again is not 'always' UK (despite what the UK tax man tries to imply and make people believe) i have paid 100s of employee payrolls per week, 1000s of men a year, all UK employees, and the income tax was not paid in UK. 

Once a P85 is filed for non residence, you simply obtain an NT tax code and pensions (not armed forces or civil servants) are then not UK taxed. 

A successful application to HMRC would result in a change to your tax code, with an ‘NT’ Tax Code, applied as a non-resident. Your pension trustee would receive confirmation from HMRC of the change and income should be paid gross, without any tax deducted.
https://www.forthcapital.com/articles/uk-pension-income-for-expats-where-do-you-pay-tax-and-what-is-an-nt-tax-code

 

Yes, OK, agreed. A minor but not pedantic point on this is that not all UK fixed assets are taxed at source, property rental income can be received gross of tax under the Overseas Landlord Scheme, mine is. All of which confirms yet again, how difficult it is to make a single statement about tax rules anywhere and that there are always exceptions.

[LivinLOS]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, OK, agreed. A minor but not pedantic point on this is that not all UK fixed assets are taxed at source, property rental income can be received gross of tax under the Overseas Landlord Scheme, mine is. All of which confirms yet again, how difficult it is to make a single statement about tax rules anywhere and that there are always exceptions.

Had not heard of that scheme, will have to have a google and read. I recall my good friend of some years back actually sold his uk letting apartments in large part because of the continual tax obligations and reporting. 

But the point about pensions is the key part, the idea that somehow pensions are always UK source income and always taxed at source in the UK isnt correct. Most British citizens resident in Thailand will be able to qualify for 100% tax relief, via the P85 and NT code structure and pay no UK taxes on UK pensions (and as usual some niche cases will have to, Armed forces etc).  

[topt]

4 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

https://valiant-wealth.com/how-will-my-uk-pension-be-taxed-if-i-live-overseas/

Thanks for the link -

Not as simple as you are alluding however -

Quote

The complication with the DT Individual form is that once completed with your details you will need to submit it to your local tax authority who will need to stamp and sign the form, confirming you are indeed tax resident and subject to tax on that income in that country.

 

3 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Had not heard of that scheme, will have to have a google and read. I recall my good friend of some years back actually sold his uk letting apartments in large part because of the continual tax obligations and reporting. 

Comprehensive article on NRLS

https://www.alanboswell.com/news/guide-to-non-resident-landlord-scheme-nrls/

NRL1

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/non-resident-landlord-application-to-have-uk-rental-income-without-deduction-of-uk-tax-individuals-nrl1

 

I have been doing this but you still pay the tax on it all be it now twice per year based on a tax return. 

 

[LivinLOS]

5 hours ago, topt said:

Thanks for the link -

Not as simple as you are alluding however 

 

Provide a Thai tax number and or Thai tax return. Not hard. 

Almost all UK retirees resident here should not be paying taxes back to the UK on their pensions. The 'I pay my taxes back there' or 'its protected by my DTA' is miss informed and should be corrected when posted. That isnt how it 'should' be. 

How Thailand treats this is open to interpretation, they may accept it, it may have tax credits, or it may require claiming it back from the UK. Thats the level of detail we do not yet have.  

[JimTripper]

'On Death & Taxes'

 

A Novel by Jacob Rothschild.

With a forward by Aleister Crowley & Special Guest Editor, Avi the Church Mouse.

Edited April 25 by JimTripper

[jaideedave]

On 4/4/2024 at 7:57 PM, Startmeup said:

Just transfer a lump of money into a Thai friends bank account and get them to give you the cash. Or are we saying all the cam girls, penpals and family donations/gifts from abroad will be declaring this money and be subject to tax too?

Give me fcukin break. This tax thing will be thrown in the bin. 

@Startmeup I like your way of thinking.My pensions total 80k monthly.I use Wise to bring it here.I'm thinking I'll send 40k to my account and 40k to my wife's account.I'll gladly pay what little tax that will attract.I also have the option of using an ATM to withdraw 40k and good luck to them catching me.There are over 100,000 ATM's in LOS.Does an alarm go off somewhere when a foreign debit card withdraws cash?

Another scenario:Billy Bob gives his gf family 200k for "sin sot" , do they run down to the RD to declare this windfall...? 555

 

[lexxy]

On 4/4/2024 at 11:54 AM, Jonathan Swift said:

In the US strict privacy laws will prevent any entity from accessing bank or financial information without the accountholder’s express permission. 

 

This doesnt seem to suggest that...https://www.ktvq.com/news/local-news/wyoming-congresswoman-helping-look-at-irs-use-of-artificial-intelligence

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, jaideedave said:

@Startmeup I like your way of thinking.My pensions total 80k monthly.I use Wise to bring it here.I'm thinking I'll send 40k to my account and 40k to my wife's account.I'll gladly pay what little tax that will attract.I also have the option of using an ATM to withdraw 40k and good luck to them catching me.There are over 100,000 ATM's in LOS.Does an alarm go off somewhere when a foreign debit card withdraws cash?

Another scenario:Billy Bob gives his gf family 200k for "sin sot" , do they run down to the RD to declare this windfall...? 555

 

Back of a fag packet: Pensions of 80k a month equals 960k per year, less 500k in TEDA leaves you 460k to account for, assuming you are from the UK and that's not a government pension. If you paid Thai tax on that 460k the tax would be 31k (that's 300k at 5% and 160k at 10%) But chances are you paid UK tax on that pension (?), if so, that tax can be offset against any Thai tax that becomes due.

[jaideedave]

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Back of a fag packet: Pensions of 80k a month equals 960k per year, less 500k in TEDA leaves you 460k to account for, assuming you are from the UK and that's not a government pension. If you paid Thai tax on that 460k the tax would be 31k (that's 300k at 5% and 160k at 10%) But chances are you paid UK tax on that pension (?), if so, that tax can be offset against any Thai tax that becomes due.

Back of a napkin: A marriage visa requires 40k/mon or 480k/year.

TEDA@ 500k. Wifey gets the other 40k.How does this look?

BTW I'm not from UK but a former colony.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, jaideedave said:

Back of a napkin: A marriage visa requires 40k/mon or 480k/year.

TEDA@ 500k. Wifey gets the other 40k.How does this look?

BTW I'm not from UK but a former colony.

The Gift Tax thing is still messy. The gift is supposed to be exclusively for the benefit of the receiver so sending the money to her and then her giving it to you....er, hmmm! But then there's conjugal property resulting from marriage....you see the problem.

 

Perhaps look at the  DTA to see if your pension is excluded, that might offer some relief, dunno.

[bdenner]

On 4/4/2024 at 12:12 PM, Colabamumbai said:

Be smart wait until immigration tells you what you need if anything. 

Agree,

I was given a shack down in Dec when renewing my retirement extension based on 65K/mth. at Udon Thani.

Insisted I prove where my Wise transfer monies came from. = NONE OF THERE EFFIN BUSINESS!!!

[MartinBangkok]

On 4/4/2024 at 4:05 PM, LivinLOS said:

 

It is impossible to accurately comment on the combination of every person, every DTA and every source of income.. 

But in general strokes DTAs most often allow you to either claim back or obtain a tax credit, from the jurisdiction you no longer reside in, so tat you may remit it to the jurisdiction you do reside in.. They do not simply allow you to 'keep paying it back home' or 'pay it where you want to'.. 

Expats that live in developed countries, move around the EU, etc etc know this, because it is enforced to file returns and clearly how to pay taxes and claim credits. Expats here have long lived in a loose developing world model that appers to be coming to an end. Even if the shoe doesnt drop this year or next, how many years do you think it will be until one of the more anti foriegner governments comes up with the bright and no doubt vote winning formula of 'why should these foriegners that live here not pay when Thais have to' (even though only 4m Thais in a 67m population pay income tax). I cannot see how 'make them pay thier fair share, they are rich' wont be an easy sell. 

It might blow over, it might not happen this year, but you better believe over the years it will.. Plan accordiengly. 

LivinLOS, are you in a state of denial or have you been asleep the last 10 months.

 

This is exactly what has happened already!

[LivinLOS]

2 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

LivinLOS, are you in a state of denial or have you been asleep the last 10 months.

 

This is exactly what has happened already!

No we dont. 

Until next year when the first of these tax returns will be due, we have no idea how intently the Thai Revenue will attempt to pursue non Thais over 2024 remittances.

We have no idea if.. 

• they will demand proof that inbound remittances were prior saved before Jan 1.
• how they will treat provable offshore savings from Jan 1 2024 over the following years / drawdowns. 
• what the levels of proof that this may be, the denial of comingled future assets, the chain of custody of funds implications.
• they will demand proof that inbound remittances have been tax paid elsewhere.
• they will accept that tax paid elsewhere (incorrectly) is allowed as a credit here.
• they demand that tax incorrectly paid elsewhere is reclaimed under DTA and remitted here.
• even the most basic of 'need to file' is debatable if a liability is uncertain, and almost all non Thais incomes would be in the uncertain category. 

The potential for this to all fall into the 'too hard to administer' basket, when only 4m out of 67m Thais even pay income tax, especially at first, is IMO quite large. Over time, as the systems become more developed, I am sure filing will be more common and I am sure some expats will even opt to pay here as it can save them taxes in other places. 

But pretending that this has happened already or that we know how the varous local revenues will seek to enforce this is simply false. Until next years filing deadlines, no one really knows what they will do in practice. Be prepared, have answers and a plan but dont be too panic'ed by it would be my position. 

 

[Mike Lister]

22 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

No we dont. 

Until next year when the first of these tax returns will be due, we have no idea how intently the Thai Revenue will attempt to pursue non Thais over 2024 remittances.

We have no idea if.. 

• they will demand proof that inbound remittances were prior saved before Jan 1.
• how they will treat provable offshore savings from Jan 1 2024 over the following years / drawdowns. 
• what the levels of proof that this may be, the denial of comingled future assets, the chain of custody of funds implications.
• they will demand proof that inbound remittances have been tax paid elsewhere.
• they will accept that tax paid elsewhere (incorrectly) is allowed as a credit here.
• they demand that tax incorrectly paid elsewhere is reclaimed under DTA and remitted here.
• even the most basic of 'need to file' is debatable if a liability is uncertain, and almost all non Thais incomes would be in the uncertain category. 

The potential for this to all fall into the 'too hard to administer' basket, when only 4m out of 67m Thais even pay income tax, especially at first, is IMO quite large. Over time, as the systems become more developed, I am sure filing will be more common and I am sure some expats will even opt to pay here as it can save them taxes in other places. 

But pretending that this has happened already or that we know how the varous local revenues will seek to enforce this is simply false. Until next years filing deadlines, no one really knows what they will do in practice. Be prepared, have answers and a plan but dont be too panic'ed by it would be my position. 

 

I'm sorry but what you wrote is not correct!

 

The rule change (or reinterpretation of the rules) has been made last year and is in effect from 1 January 2024 and everyone is obliged to adhere to it, Thais and foreigners. Everyone is obliged to follow those rules, there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever about that.

 

What is in question is two things:

 

1) the precise rules and processes that TRD will adopt for all types of income from all countries, that is what many of us are attempting to discover presently.

 

2) The degree to which the TRD will follow up and audit individuals for conformance to the new rules. This may not become fully apparent for a couple of years. The risk is  that some people will adopt a wait and see attitude and when no major announcement is forthcoming they may be lulled into a false sense of security and believe the new rules have been scrapped when really they have been operationalised since 1 January 2024. 

 

How you handle this rule change is you choice but it is not true and is very misleading to say that just because all the details are not known currently, it hasn't happened and will not happen. If this rule change is ever walked back, everyone will hear that news, quite unmistakably.

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm sorry but what you wrote is not correct!

 

The rule change (or reinterpretation of the rules) has been made last year and is in effect from 1 January 2024 and everyone is obliged to adhere to it, Thais and foreigners. Everyone is obliged to follow those rules, there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever about that.

 

What is in question is two things:

 

1) the precise rules and processes that TRD will adopt for all types of income from all countries, that is what many of us are attempting to discover presently.

 

2) The degree to which the TRD will follow up and audit individuals for conformance to the new rules. This may not become fully apparent for a couple of years. The risk is  that some people will adopt a wait and see attitude and when no major announcement is forthcoming they may be lulled into a false sense of security and believe the new rules have been scrapped when really they have been operationalised since 1 January 2024. 

 

How you handle this rule change is you choice but it is not true and is very misleading to say that just because all the details are not known currently, it hasn't happened and will not happen. If this rule change is ever walked back, everyone will hear that news, quite unmistakably.

Isnt that saying exactly what I said ?? 

The rules are now technically in force, however we have no actual idea how those rules will really be enforced or implemented given the complex nature of overseas income streams, DTAs, past taxation liabilities, etc.  In reality we do not know if any actual enforcement of the process at all will be attempted next year.

What specifically did I claim that you feel is not correct ? 

[Soupdragon]

24 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Isnt that saying exactly what I said ?? 

The rules are now technically in force, however we have no actual idea how those rules will really be enforced or implemented given the complex nature of overseas income streams, DTAs, past taxation liabilities, etc.  In reality we do not know if any actual enforcement of the process at all will be attempted next year.

What specifically did I claim that you feel is not correct ? 

I read that an announcement which will clarify these points is coming in July. Personally I think you are right, the administration of the enforcement of collection will prove to be too complex to implement, at least in the short term.

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Isnt that saying exactly what I said ?? 

The rules are now technically in force, however we have no actual idea how those rules will really be enforced or implemented given the complex nature of overseas income streams, DTAs, past taxation liabilities, etc.  In reality we do not know if any actual enforcement of the process at all will be attempted next year.

What specifically did I claim that you feel is not correct ? 

If we do agree that's fine, it's just that I took the following to mean that you didn't believe it would happen.

 

"But pretending that this has happened already or that we know how the varous local revenues will seek to enforce this is simply false. Until next years filing deadlines, no one really knows what they will do in practice".

 

I maintain that the law change has already happened and that enforcement will either come as a result of more audits or a link to Immigration for visa renewal purposes, I see both those things as probable but the latter more so.

 

What they will do in practise, I think, is process tax returns from people who submit them and audit the ones that look suspicious, just as they do now. Over time they will increase the number of audits and will begin to look at Thai bank reporting of international bank transfers and start to examine if those people filed returns and declared the funds. Perhaps they will write, perhaps they will call or perhaps a new visa rule will negate much of that because foreigners will have no choice but to file or leave

[jaideedave]

20 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The Gift Tax thing is still messy. The gift is supposed to be exclusively for the benefit of the receiver so sending the money to her and then her giving it to you....er, hmmm! But then there's conjugal property resulting from marriage....you see the problem.

 

Perhaps look at the  DTA to see if your pension is excluded, that might offer some relief, dunno.

I have a gut feeling my plan just may work.Like someone posted earlier, only 4 million out of 71 mil even pay any taxes here. Maybe my wife will have to join this elite group with the 40k/mon I remit to her. Time will tell.

I also feel this may become an administrative nightmare for the RD considering all the different nationalities,languages and DTA,s involved.

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, jaideedave said:

I have a gut feeling my plan just may work.Like someone posted earlier, only 4 million out of 71 mil even pay any taxes here. Maybe my wife will have to join this elite group with the 40k/mon I remit to her. Time will tell.

I also feel this may become an administrative nightmare for the RD considering all the different nationalities,languages and DTA,s involved.

We hear some months ago that the TRD is recruiting one new lawyer to work at each of the TRD regional offices, they clearly see the problem too!

[jayboy]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I maintain that the law change has already happened and that enforcement will either come as a result of more audits or a link to Immigration for visa renewal purposes, I see both those things as probable but the latter more so.

 

 

I wonder whether many , in anticipation of future audits by RD, propose proceeding as I do, namely by having two UK bank accounts - the first (for remitting) covering all investments, cash deposits etc made before 31.12.2023 and the second covering all current income (not for remitting).

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I wonder whether many , in anticipation of future audits by RD, propose proceeding as I do, namely by having two UK bank accounts - the first (for remitting) covering all investments, cash deposits etc made before 31.12.2023 and the second covering all current income (not for remitting).

I keep two Thai bank accounts for that reason, one for receiving income, the other for investing, Imm money and savings. Separating funds in the UK or overseas level would also make good sense. 

[LivinLOS]

Just now, jayboy said:

 

I wonder whether many , in anticipation of future audits by RD, propose proceeding as I do, namely by having two UK bank accounts - the first (for remitting) covering all investments, cash deposits etc made before 31.12.2023 and the second covering all current income (not for remitting).

My current plan which I feel is fairly strong. Everyones plan will be different for thier needs. 

I have an Irish income that HAS to be taxed at source (directors salary) so that one I have is pre taxed and covered under a DTA. That I can spend and easily justify and is play money. I wont declare it as I am sure it is legally correct and I have the tax return and DTA archived. 

Other funds for household costs I send to the wife and she already manages our household bills and cashflow. Thats gift if asked and again correct she is spending it on her and her house. 

Any investments are covered by my Jan 1 savings, with statements archived 'just in case' for a couple 100k GBP. Theres another 6 rai I have my eye on and that would manage that without going over. 

Long term LTR visa but thats later. 
 

[jayboy]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

I keep two Thai bank accounts for that reason, one for receiving income, the other for investing, Imm money and savings. Separating funds in the UK or overseas level would also make good sense. 

 

Agreed, and there is the considerable advantage of the record taking aspect being taken care of.In other words in the unlikely event of a RD dispute/query, bank records could be easily shown.

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

My current plan which I feel is fairly strong. Everyones plan will be different for thier needs. 

I have an Irish income that HAS to be taxed at source (directors salary) so that one I have is pre taxed and covered under a DTA. That I can spend and easily justify and is play money. I wont declare it as I am sure it is legally correct and I have the tax return and DTA archived. 

Other funds for household costs I send to the wife and she already manages our household bills and cashflow. Thats gift if asked and again correct she is spending it on her and her house. 

Any investments are covered by my Jan 1 savings, with statements archived 'just in case' for a couple 100k GBP. Theres another 6 rai I have my eye on and that would manage that without going over. 

Long term LTR visa but thats later. 
 

[Technically] This is the part where your plan may not be strong as a Gift is usually considered something for which you get no direct benefit from & obviously if you're giving her money to pay your shared household bills then you would be getting a direct benefit from it, if you were just supporting your wife whilst not living there then you'd probably be OK.

[Practically] unless you're sending her a significant amount of money each month then I don't think you'd have any problems.

If your wife doesn't have any other income then you could send her at least 210K (more with additional allowances) as this would be below her personal taxation threshold. 

 

Gifting her up to 20 Million for her to purchase 6 Rai of land should be OK so you could keep your savings prior to 1/1/2024 in reserve & use income received after that instead.

 

 

FWIW my plan is:-

   - Remit 210K to the GF (her 60K allowance + 1st 150K tax free)

   - Remit 235K for me (same 210K as her + an extra 25K for purchasing Health Insurance)

   - Gift her 100K on her Birthday & Xmas (at worse this will be taxed at 5%)

   - Use money already in Thailand to cover the rest of the bills. 

This will keep me going until 2026 when I plan on going for the LTR WP Visa. 

 

Edited April 26 by Mike Teavee