Kid's Thai nationality

[Neeranam]

6 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

 

https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Thailand185.pdf

Commercial website?

 

This is the 1965 act!

Edited April 30 by Neeranam

[MangoKorat]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Commercial website?

As I CLEARLY stated, I'm not going to waste my time.  Clear enough?  Up to you whether you want to believe it or not.  If I spent hours finding the official location, you'd still argue with it.  I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

[jts-khorat]

2 hours ago, jaxon said:

Kid was born in UK and had a Thai passport previously.  New Thai passport not possible as no Thai ID (not living in Thailand as adult). Question, does he still retain Thai citizenship or does it need some kind of confirmation?  He does not need a new Thai passport I am just wondering if he remains Thai and has a right to one/residency in the future. 

 

We were in exactly the same position as you: because of Covid, our daughters passport lapsed, and as she was older than 7, she had to get a Thai ID card first.

 

1) your child will not loose Thai citizenship without passport; actually, he -- as any Thai citizen -- is entitled to enter Thailand even on a lapsed passport

2) your child will need to be registered in the Thai house book to obtain an ID card; you need to apply for the ID card in person, with child and both parents present, as the will make fotos of the child for the card there (you can do that in the same province the house book is located)

3) with the ID card, you then can get a Thai passport for your child at any consulate, this step does not need to happen in Thailand any more

4) very important: all documents for the ID card need to be originals (ask me how I know, we left them in Germany and had only notarized copies, they were not good enough...)

 

The process is straightforward, but impossible if you did not plan to go to Thailand.

Edited April 30 by jts-khorat

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, MangoKorat said:

As I CLEARLY stated, I'm not going to waste my time.  Clear enough?  Up to you whether you want to believe it or not.  If I spent hours finding the official location, you'd still argue with it.  I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Do you know there are more recent Nationality Acts than 1965?

[Georgealbert]

Found this quote, from a legal site on Thailand Nationality Act. Not a lawyer, so not going to debate, but can not see why a legal company would promote false information.

 

“A child of a Thai and foreign parent can have both nationalities as of birth (if the other nationality law permits the same). In Thai the child would be called a luk khreung (half child ลูกครึ่ง). A reference to being of a mixed race, or mixed cultural or national heritage. At the age of 18 or 20 (Thai legal age of majority) they do not need to choose between their nationalities according to Thai law. If the other country’s law is similar then you don’t have to worry, but don’t forget dual nationality relates to two nationality laws. Thus for Thailand they can keep both nationalities.

 

Before 01 March 1992 they did need to chose in their 20th year, but no longer so. However, these new adults are still able to choose themselves if they want to do voluntarily renounce the Thai nationality (Section 14). Before 1992 there was an extra clause which meant that if you didn’t choose you would loose… your Thai nationality. This is not the case today.
 

In addition, the new military government’s Thai constitution of 2017 does give these youngsters some extra protection by stating in section 39 “revocation of Thai nationality from anyone born Thai shall be prohibited””

 

Translation of 2017 constitution attached.

 

https://habsburg-legal-services.com/thailand-nationality-act/
 

https://tatanegara.ui.ac.id/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/The-Constitution-of-The-Kingdom-of-Thailand-English_1-57.pdf

 

[MangoKorat]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Commercial website?

I am entirely confident that the content from the link I posted a few minutes ago from this website, is entirely consistent with the actual law that I read years ago.  My then wife, also read the Thai version to be sure the two versions were the same.

 

As a general rule AND as a long standing member here, you should be very aware that you should not believe everything you read on commercial websites.

 

As you will, or should be aware of.  There is one Legal Company that is regularly qouted on here and who's website contains several incorrect items on house ownership.  Another company uses a name/URL that makes itself sound like an official Thai embassy.  That website also regularly has wrong/outdated information on it.

 

On this occasion, I know that the content from the Asean Now thread is the same as that from the official source. I have nothing at all to gain from this and I didn't post it to appear clever.  I came across this information many years ago whilst my then wife and I were fighting a custody battle with her child's paternal grandparents.

[MangoKorat]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Do you know there are more recent Nationality Acts than 1965?

So post them.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

12 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

 

Actually, I'm not going to spend hours looking for the law from an official source with an official translation, simply because the last time I did just that, there were still those who said its not true.

 

You can either believe it or not - personally I couldn't give a monkey's toss.

 

From our own website:

 

Section 14
A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father and has acquired the
nationality of his father according to the law on nationality of his father, or a person who
acquires Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph 2 is required, if he desires to retain
his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality
within one year after his attaining the age of twenty years, according to such form and in
the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.
If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is
reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his father or a
foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases where Thailand is being
engaged in armed conflict, or is in state of war, he may order the dispensation of any
renunciation of Thai nationality.

 

 

https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Thailand185.pdf

 

There is no provision in this clause for the loss of Thai nationality if such declaration isn't made.

 

My understanding is that this allows someone who acquires Thai nationality at birth, or by naturalization as a minor, to renounce Thai nationality in order to keep the citizenship of the parent when the parent's country of citizenship does not allow dual nationality. Otherwise the person with dual nationality may be forced to lose the nationality of the non-Thai parent. A bit strange that the clause only applies if the parent is the father, but this is an old law.

[jts-khorat]

1 hour ago, UKresonant said:

For the UK born kid we just went to the Embassy and obtained a Thai birth cert as mother is Thai.

 

Then Thai passport.

 

ID card was much later.

 

The issue is age: you can make a Thai passport for a child without Thai ID card if it is less than 7 years old; after that, it needs the Thai ID card.

 

For that it needs to be registered in a house book, but it does not need to live there, or have lived there previously ever (another poster mentioned that, it is the correct information).

 

As others questioned, if there would be future issues if the child has two nationalities / passports. My son from first marriage is now 24, he simply has kept both passports and has just renewed his German one. You actually have to write on the application if you have a second nationality, no issue at all.

 

Neither he nor my daughter have ever encountered any difficulty with the two passports, or any renewal of both either in Thailand or in Germany, and from all the people I know, there has never been an issue reported.

 

We are German, so this might differ with other nationalities/passports.

 

A dual Thai passport is therefore no problem for girls at all. However, for my son, Thai military service became an issue, and if you have a Thai passport, you will participate in the lottery.

[MangoKorat]

4 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

“A child of a Thai and foreign parent can have both nationalities as of birth (if the other nationality law permits the same). In Thai the child would be called a luk khreung (half child ลูกครึ่ง). A reference to being of a mixed race, or mixed cultural or national heritage. At the age of 18 or 20 (Thai legal age of majority) they do not need to choose between their nationalities according to Thai law. If the other country’s law is similar then you don’t have to worry, but don’t forget dual nationality relates to two nationality laws. Thus for Thailand they can keep both nationalities.

If the official version of that states the same, then the previous act may well have been updated.  However, for me, I would have to see the official version.  I've seen many occasions where so called Thai legal companies have given wrong information.

 

They also sometimes use information from proposals that were never actually enacted by Royal Decree.

 

Just remember that Thailand is not Farangland and there is very little comeback on lawyers who give wrong information.

 

That said, if the information is correct, I'll be happy to accept it.  All I am trying to do is provide correct information.

[GroveHillWanderer]

10 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

So post them.

@Georgealbertalready posted an extract from a translation of the 2017 Constitution that says, "revocation of Thai nationality from anyone born Thai shall be prohibited."

 

You said you read the law "years ago" and posted a link that appears to be from 2016. So does your info post-date the 2017 constitution?

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

I owe an apology to MangoKorat. I've found an English version of the amendments to the Nationality Act that were implemented in 1992:

 

https://www.ecoi.net/en/file/local/1167851/1504_1218184631_nationality-act-no-2-b-e-2535.pdf

 

It does indeed require a declaration at age 20.

 

But I think the law is either ignored or has been made ineffective by subsequent constitutions that guarantee Thai citizenship to those who acquire it at birth.

Edited April 30 by Etaoin Shrdlu

[MangoKorat]

7 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

There is no provision in this clause for the loss of Thai nationality if such declaration isn't made.

 

My understanding is that this allows someone who acquires Thai nationality at birth, or by naturalization as a minor, to renounce Thai nationality in order to keep the citizenship of the parent when the parent's country of citizenship does not allow dual nationality. Otherwise the person with dual nationality may be forced to lose the nationality of the non-Thai parent. A bit strange that the clause only applies if the parent is the father, but this is an old law.

No, it does not 'allow' - it requires them to renouce their citizenship. That renunciation is then considered by the minister and provided there is no need of them for military service, the citizenship will be ended.

 

It is nothing to do with their father's country not allowing dual nationality.  It refers to childern born of a foreign father who hold their father's citizenship because of the laws of that country.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

1 minute ago, MangoKorat said:

No, it does not 'allow' - it requires them to renouce their citizenship. That renunciation is then considered by the minister and provided there is no need of them for military service, the citizenship will be ended.

 

It is nothing to do with their father's country not allowing dual nationality.  It refers to childern born of a foreign father who hold their father's citizenship because of the laws of that country.

 Yes. See my post above.

[MangoKorat]

2 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

@Georgealbertalready posted an extract from a translation of the 2017 Constitution that says, "revocation of Thai nationality from anyone born Thai shall be prohibited."

 

You said you read the law "years ago" and posted a link that appears to be from 2016. So does your info post-date the 2017 constitution?

I posted a link from this website that contained a translation of a law that was initially enacted in 1965. I have no idea if that has been updated.

 

As I have said, if someone is prepared to post an actual revision of that law and the Thai version and that is different, I'll happily accept that.

 

I've seen far to many examples of wrong information over the years to believe anything other than that from an official source.

[MangoKorat]

2 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 Yes. See my post above.

Thanks for that.  It could be though, that a superceded law exists. I'm just waiting for those who say there is to post it.

[Neeranam]

10 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I am entirely confident that the content from the link I posted a few minutes ago from this website, is entirely consistent with the actual law that I read years ago.  My then wife, also read the Thai version to be sure the two versions were the same.

 

As a general rule AND as a long standing member here, you should be very aware that you should not believe everything you read on commercial websites.

 

As you will, or should be aware of.  There is one Legal Company that is regularly qouted on here and who's website contains several incorrect items on house ownership.  Another company uses a name/URL that makes itself sound like an official Thai embassy.  That website also regularly has wrong/outdated information on it.

 

On this occasion, I know that the content from the Asean Now thread is the same as that from the official source. I have nothing at all to gain from this and I didn't post it to appear clever.  I came across this information many years ago whilst my then wife and I were fighting a custody battle with her child's paternal grandparents.

That website is donation only, and is the definitive resource of Thai Citizenship. 

There is some confusion from many. Yes, Thailand does not legally recognize dual citizenship in writing.

However, there are many Thais with dual and multiple citizenships who are in very influential positions in the government and there are some grey areas in the law, but the status quo will not be changed. The 1992 Act changed many things.

I signed a form at the UK embassy saying I intended to renounce my British citizenship when gaining Thai citizenship. Intentions can be changed. 

There's also a lot of people that think getting Thai citizenship/being a dual national is easy/illegal based on old information, ie before the 1992 Nationality act and the changes is subsequent acts. 

For example, few know about the Nationality Act  which was revised in 2019 to allow for easier acquisition of Thai citizenship for foreign men married to Thai women. Prior to this amendment, the process for foreign spouses, particularly husbands, to obtain Thai citizenship was often more complex and time-consuming compared to foreign women married to Thai men.

The 2019 amendment aimed to address this gender disparity by streamlining the citizenship application process for foreign husbands of Thai women. It relaxed certain requirements and made it easier for foreign spouses to become naturalized citizens of Thailand. This change was significant in promoting gender equality and facilitating family unity for couples with mixed-nationality marriages in Thailand.

 

[MangoKorat]

7 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

I owe an apology to MangoKorat. I've found an English version of the amendments to the Nationality Act that were implemented in 1992:

 

https://www.ecoi.net/en/file/local/1167851/1504_1218184631_nationality-act-no-2-b-e-2535.pdf

 

It does indeed require a declaration at age 20.

Oh, so you found a 1992 version that stated much the same?

 

Odd then that there are those here that are claiming that the 1992 version does away with the renunciation of citizenship requirement.

 

Thanks for that information (genuinely).

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

7 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Thanks for that.  It could be though, that a superceded law exists. I'm just waiting for those who say there is to post it.

 

Here it is as amended in 2008:

 

https://www.refworld.org/themes/custom/unhcr_rw/pdf-js/viewer.html?file=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.refworld.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Flegacy-pdf%2Fen%2F2008-2%2F4a54695f2.pdf

 

It drops the part about renouncing Thai nationality if no declaration is made. I think this supports my earlier post in which I think it applies to children whose parent's country prohibits dual nationality by providing a way to renounce Thai nationality.

Edited April 30 by Etaoin Shrdlu

[MangoKorat]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

However, there are many Thais with dual and multiple citizenships who are in very influential positions in the government and there are some grey areas in the law, but the status quo will not be changed. The 1992 Act changed many things.

I have stated from my first post that I am very aware that there are thousands that hold both passports.  I also pointed out exactly why I was warning the OP of this law.

 

However, I still await a copy of the 1992 act where the renunciation requirement was removed. Once I do, I repeat, I'll be happy to accept that my information is out of date.

[Neeranam]

24 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

So post them.

 Here's one. 2008

 

https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Doc-21_Thailand187.pdf

[MangoKorat]

1 minute ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

Here it is as amended in 2008:

 

https://www.refworld.org/themes/custom/unhcr_rw/pdf-js/viewer.html?file=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.refworld.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Flegacy-pdf%2Fen%2F2008-2%2F4a54695f2.pdf

 

It drops the part about renouncing Thai nationality if no declaration is made. I think this supports my earlier post in which I think it applies to children whose parent's other country prohibits dual nationality by providing a way to renounce Thai nationality.

Thanks for that but again, its not from a Thai government source.

 

There are mistakes all over the place. The UK government's website on travel to Thailand for example, contains several mistakes/out of date items.

[Georgealbert]

23 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

If the official version of that states the same, then the previous act may well have been updated.  However, for me, I would have to see the official version.  I've seen many occasions where so called Thai legal companies have given wrong information.

 

They also sometimes use information from proposals that were never actually enacted by Royal Decree.

 

Just remember that Thailand is not Farangland and there is very little comeback on lawyers who give wrong information.

 

That said, if the information is correct, I'll be happy to accept it.  All I am trying to do is provide correct information.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are expecting. The official documents are in Thai language, There will be no official English language version.

 

If you follow my earlier link you can read translated versions of all the sections of the latest Nationality Act,. The 1992 act has been amended. You need to read Nationality Act (No. 4) B.E. 2551).

 

The guidance was given by a legal company, I can see no reason why they would provide flse information, on this subject.

 

I am not a lawyer, so I am out of this debate, as I have I believe posted credible links

 

https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Doc-21_Thailand187.pdf

Edited April 30 by Georgealbert

[MangoKorat]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

 Here's one. 2008

 

https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Doc-21_Thailand187.pdf

What's the difference - it looks identical to me:

 

From your link:

 

Section 13
Section 14 of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 as amended by the Nationality Act (No.3), B.E.
2535 shall be repealed and replaced by the following:
“Section 14
A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father or mother and has
acquired the nationality of the father or mother according to the law on nationality
of the father or mother, or a person who acquired Thai nationality under Section 12
paragraph two or Section 12/1 (2) and (3) is required, if he desires to retain his
other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai
nationality within one year after his attaining the age of 20 years, according to such
forms and in the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.
If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is
reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his
father, mother, or a foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases
where Thailand is engaged in armed conflict or is in state of war, he may order the
dispensation of any renunciation of Thai nationality.”

[MangoKorat]

3 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

Sorry, I have no idea what you are expecting. The official documents are in Thai language, There will be no official English language version.

Actually, there are often English translations, especially when new laws relate to immigration matters.

[Georgealbert]

3 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Actually, there are often English translations, especially when new laws relate to immigration matters.

So easy answer, post those documents you speak of, then you can prove us, the lawyers, legal sites all wrong.

 

Bye, have a good evening, as I will.

Edited April 30 by Georgealbert

[MangoKorat]

OK, unless someone posts an official version that shows that the information I provided earlier has been updated and dual citizenship for children of mixed heritage is now allowed. I will not be posting further.

 

I have read the official version and the copy I posted on here - to the best of my knowledge they are identical.  I don't need to see an official version of that law because I've already seen it.  If anyone chooses not to believe it.......that's fine.

 

I am yet to see an official version that shows any relevant updates of the law.

 

I have spent far too long already arguing this point. Over and out.

[MangoKorat]

2 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

So easy answer, post those documents you speak of, then you can prove us, the lawyers, legal sites all wrong.

Regular members here know very well that they should not accept documents from so called lawyers and legal sites in Thailand.  I can think of at least one 'legal' company that advertises on Asean Now that doesn't actually employ any Thai lawyers.

[Neeranam]

This is from an official source

 

there have been 4 Nationality acts since 1965.

 

https://www.bora.dopa.go.th/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/nationality.pdf

 

[Hanuman2547]

2 hours ago, jaxon said:

 

My understanding is that you have to be resident in Thailand to apply for the ID card.  

My youngest had a Thai passport but no Thai ID.  When he went back to Thailand at age 20 for a visit he applied for his very first Thai ID.  You do need to take the Tabien Bahn where his name is listed.  It was amazingly quite easy to do.  It took about two hours from start to finish.  You can get new Thai ID cards when they expire from the embassy/consulate in your country if living outside of Thailand.