"Civil Rights Leaders Condemn Book Bans and Attacks on DEI, Rallying at Supreme Court"

[impulse]

11 minutes ago, JCauto said:

I am still searching for "fungible talent and DEI" but can't seem to find a single article that supports this as being a feature of the DEI initiatives

 

If you're going to select and promote your employees based on demographics, and not based on merit, isn't that treating them as a fungible commodity?   One engineer is as good as the next, so let's pick the black guy, because we're short on blacks according to our DEI goals...

 

My mechanical engineering class had about 250 graduates with half a dozen blacks and the same number of women.  There is no mathematical way for a company to get to "equity" without hiring the bottom 50% of women and blacks in preference to the top of the whites and Asians.  That's just numbers, and not a judgment of the quality of the graduates.

 

[Yellowtail]

37 minutes ago, JCauto said:

 

I am still searching for "fungible talent and DEI" but can't seem to find a single article that supports this as being a feature of the DEI initiatives. It would instead seem that the idea was to diversify the talent within the organizations and keep that diversification afterwards, otherwise why would they bother with it? So I'm sure you're going to provide us with that reference, after all, you wouldn't be disingenuous and pretending to be debating but actually be acting in bad faith?

 

I mean, if you were doing that, you'd do things like put a reference into your post but not enable it to be linked to so people wouldn't read it. However, of course, you could just say "I forgot", and then "why didn't you just copy it and paste it into a new Browser Tab?" So I did.

 

Guess which words do not appear within that article? If you guessed "Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, DEI" then you're a winner! None of those words or the acronym made it in. The reason? They weren't relevant, it was an article discussing data analytics and platforms at Boeing so that they could improve their efficiency and avoid duplication and disconnects. So you put a fake link into your response because it was by the same company pretending that it was McKinsey saying something about Boeing that presumably pointed to their issues with DEI, but in fact it had nothing whatsoever to do with DEI. Then you added an anecdote from your work and implied that this "fungible talent" idea is somehow both connected to DEI and McKinsey.

 

It's basically a fake response with no meaning that avoids actually addressing the crux of the matter (that one of the world's leading business consultants has studied this specific issue of DEI and that it equates to far better financial performance by the companies that practice it) and instead constructs a fake response that purports to show the same people saying something different when in fact they did no such thing.

It's not a feature, it's a result. 

 

It's like lowering the educational requirement for graduation is not feature of lowering admissions standards, it's a result. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

19 minutes ago, impulse said:

promote your employees based on demographics, and not based on merit, isn't that treating them as a fungible commodity?   One engineer is as good as the next, so let's pick the black guy, because we're short on blacks according to our DEI goals...

 

My mechanical engineering class had about 250 graduates with half a dozen blacks and the same number of women.  There is no mathematical way for a company to get to "equity" without hiring the bo

When my sister took the EIT (engineer in training) test, she said it was the only time she ever saw a line at the men's room and open stalls in the women's. 

 

The problem is the focus on college admissions, rather than K-12 where it should be. Kid goes to sh*t schools, then goes to uni wanting to be an engineer or whatnot, no or low SAT requirement, they can't cut it and end up either dropping ou.t or with an ethnic studies or education or some other POC degree and $200K of debt. 

 

Now the coursework has to be watered down to accommodate substandard students, and society suffers. 

 

 

[JCauto]

35 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

If you're going to select and promote your employees based on demographics, and not based on merit, isn't that treating them as a fungible commodity?   One engineer is as good as the next, so let's pick the black guy, because we're short on blacks according to our DEI goals...

 

My mechanical engineering class had about 250 graduates with half a dozen blacks and the same number of women.  There is no mathematical way for a company to get to "equity" without hiring the bottom 50% of women and blacks in preference to the top of the whites and Asians.  That's just numbers, and not a judgment of the quality of the graduates.

 

If the only basis were demographics, sure. But that's not the case, as you're no doubt well aware. Your point about there being an overwhelmingly male supply of engineers though is valid and relevant here - as a civil engineer, our demographics were similarly skewed towards men and the primarily male-dominated workspaces further ensured that there were few women working in the field. I don't know if that's changing or not, suspect that if it is, it's changing slowly. There's still too few people in general getting into STEM and not enough women for sure. The male dominance in the workspace makes it also more challenging for women, another reason it's not attracting very many. 

 

As an engineer whose field involved a lot more interaction with the general populace and other sectors, I understood the value of diversity and the need for being aware of cultural, gender and other factors when designing projects and ensuring we were getting the information and opinions of everyone who was going to be affected by the project. That's just sound engineering. Perhaps in mechanical you're separated more from the users so have less need of that? Both fields are very diverse and have many different work scenarios.

 

Working within teams to undertake major projects requires a range of skills, outlooks and abilities. Watch any pro sports team and you understand implicitly that while there are the stars who make or break the team's chances, they don't win without the lower-skilled guys doing the grunt work. Teams of all A+ Alpha Dogs are both impossible to find unless you're throwing money out of helicopters and don't play well together regardless. Engineering at least of the sort I was doing requires the different viewpoints and knowledge of women, community development experts, agronomists, rural business people, district government agencies etc. A team of all-white engineers would be ineffective.

[JCauto]

18 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

When my sister took the EIT (engineer in training) test, she said it was the only time she ever saw a line at the men's room and open stalls in the women's. 

 

The problem is the focus on college admissions, rather than K-12 where it should be. Kid goes to sh*t schools, then goes to uni wanting to be an engineer or whatnot, no or low SAT requirement, they can't cut it and end up either dropping ou.t or with an ethnic studies or education or some other POC degree and $200K of debt. 

 

Now the coursework has to be watered down to accommodate substandard students, and society suffers. 

I'm with you about the male dominance (discussed above) and the focus on college admissions. 

 

However, I don't think your claim that you can get into engineering at a decent school with a low or no SAT requirement passes muster at least to my knowledge. Engineering schools have only gotten more insanely competitive since I graduated (long ago). The DEI measures at schools are no doubt providing some dispensations for the various POC and women I would think, but I doubt it comprises very much of the overall percentage of the class.

 

Are they worse engineers because they didn't do as well on their SATs or in high school? I know I was not great in high school but was still able to get in (lower requirements then) and scrape by just because I wasn't inspired by classroom learning (especially early in the morning). So I didn't attend, but I learned the material and became quite a competent and successful engineer because I loved the work. One reason I was successful is that I was more social than my engineering peers so was able to get better jobs and gain more responsibility quicker. The bookish nerdy guys have to take the long route. All this to say that not all good engineers are the same, you need different and diverse ones especially when you work in teams.

 

The failure to inspire kids in maths and science and point them to why they should be interested in it via the possible careers it opens is to me a major failure of the educational system. I had an uncle who was an engineer working in the aerospace industry who took me around and showed me what he did and that literally changed my life. 

[BangkokReady]

14 hours ago, Social Media said:

denounce the surge in book bans

 

There have been zero book bans, let a lone a surge in them.

[Yagoda]

If Randi Weingartens lips are moving. moronic nonesense and lies are spewing out

[candide]

12 hours ago, Gsxrnz said:

I don't think preventing pornography being presented to 8 year olds can be considered a "book ban". 

Complete B.S!

[Yellowtail]

 

 

1 hour ago, JCauto said:

I'm with you about the male dominance (discussed above) and the focus on college admissions. 

"In fall 2021, female students made up 58 percent of total undergraduate enrollment (8.9 million students), and male students made up 42 percent (6.5 million students)."

 

So much for male dominance. Women generally do not want to work in engineering, and other STEM disciplines. When only 15% of US engineers are women, and only 20% of US engineering graduates are women, mandating 50% of a company's engineers be women is a recipe for disaster. 

 

1 hour ago, JCauto said:

However, I don't think your claim that you can get into engineering at a decent school with a low or no SAT requirement passes muster at least to my knowledge. Engineering schools have only gotten more insanely competitive since I graduated (long ago). The DEI measures at schools are no doubt providing some dispensations for the various POC and women I would think, but I doubt it comprises very much of the overall percentage of the class.

Women and non-Asian minorities can generally get into elite schools with lower grades and SAT scores than white men. 

 

Many schools (including MIT) dropped the SAT requirement during covid, and while MIT recently reinstated the requirement, many have not. 

 

Look at the coursework and the university you attended, and you will likely see that it has been watered down.

1 hour ago, JCauto said:

Are they worse engineers because they didn't do as well on their SATs or in high school? I know I was not great in high school but was still able to get in (lower requirements then) and scrape by just because I wasn't inspired by classroom learning (especially early in the morning). So I didn't attend, but I learned the material and became quite a competent and successful engineer because I loved the work. One reason I was successful is that I was more social than my engineering peers so was able to get better jobs and gain more responsibility quicker. The bookish nerdy guys have to take the long route. All this to say that not all good engineers are the same, you need different and diverse ones especially when you work in teams.++

As indicated earlier, many were in the top of their high school class, get into an elite university wanting to go into STEM, and once admitted, can't keep up and either drop out, or change majors. Those that do finish, often do in the bottom of their class. Had they gone to a second or third tier school, they likely would have been fine. 

 

1 hour ago, JCauto said:

 

The failure to inspire kids in maths and science and point them to why they should be interested in it via the possible careers it opens is to me a major failure of the educational system. I had an uncle who was an engineer working in the aerospace industry who took me around and showed me what he did and that literally changed my life. 

Many high school teachers in the US can barely do arithmetic. I think teachers should have to be tested every year to be recertified. 

 

Innercity school performance is pathetic. 

 

My father was an engineer with North American Aviation (now Boeing) and took me to a few plants. Did not really inspire me, I ended up a drug addict. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

16 minutes ago, candide said:

Complete B.S!

Do you think illustrated books instructing boys on how to blow each other should be in schools? 

[Hanaguma]

First thing I thought when I saw the line up of these so-called "civil rights leaders" was, 'I smell Soros money'. 

 

As to why women don't become engineers, perhaps because they don't want to be engineers? Same as not too many women are roofers or electricians or bricklayers. Also the same reason a lot of men aren't elementary school teachers or work in the HR department. 

 

If you look at the federal workforce in the US, African Americans (especially African American women) are OVER-represented compared to their percentage of the overall population. Guess we need a bit of Affirmative Action there too. Those are good jobs with benefits and security.

[retarius]

Looks like this mob are going to get violent very soon. I hope the police cracked them over the head with nightsticks and shot a few of them. Seriously 10 or 12 people and this is a protest?

[wwest5829]

On 5/6/2024 at 3:28 PM, impulse said:

 

It's been over 50 years since skin color made the difference in educational quality.  White kids, Hispanic kids and Asian kids have the same challenges in crappy inner city school systems.  (The families that value education move to better districts).  So why should black kids get DEI preferential treatment when their educational options were the same as inner city white kids, or Hispanic kids?

 

My grandparents came to the USA from Belarus and Russia with no money and speaking no English.  2 generations later, we're 60% millionaires at retirement.  The next generation is already 50% millionaires and nowhere near retirement yet.  3 of the 10 will be gazillionaires by retirement.   Because they valued education and chose to move to good districts.  With the advent of the interweb, the good districts are easy to find, and generally have better jobs to move to...

 

Good for you. My forebears came in the 1600s. Farmers, shipyard owners, refugees from religious persecution. I retired after 41 years of teaching as an Emeritus Professor of history of History in a poor state in the USA. Retired along with millions of of working middle class Americans in a lower cost country.