Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[stat]

12 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Unnecessarily argumentative, again, there's nothing even remotely incorrect about what I wrote!

 

My comment doesn't suggest anything is guaranteed, only that the taxpayer must state /decide what the nature is of the funds being remitted. 

 

"there is no default position or automatic assumption that a remittance is one thing or the other", but the first step in the process is the taxpayer must decide what it is and so say.

Nothing argumentative about pointing out that your statement is wrong:

 

"A remittance is considered to be whatever the taxpayer says it is,"

 

Where is your prove that a taxpayer can simply declare this or that it not a remittance? We can then all declare we never made a remittance and everything is jolly good. You still stand by your argument? I can very well remember where in several posts you claimed that an ATM withdrawal is a remittance.

 

 

Edited July 4 by stat

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, stat said:

Nothing argumentative about pointing out that your statement is wrong:

 

"A remittance is considered to be whatever the taxpayer says it is,"

 

Where is your prove that a taxpayer can simply declare this or that it not a remittance? We can then all declare we never made a remittance and everything is jolly good. You still stand by your argument? I can very well remember where in several posts you claimed that an ATM withdrawal is a remittance.

 

 

I've no interest in playing your word games nor in turning this thread into another 8,000 post thread that accomplished nothing. You understand full well what was said and why, if you want to debate your legal definitions of what the Thai TRD intends, do so in a court of law and not with me.

[Presnock]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

I've no interest in playing your word games nor in turning this thread into another 8,000 post thread that accomplished nothing. You understand full well what was said and why, if you want to debate your legal definitions of what the Thai TRD intends, do so in a court of law and not with me.

I agree with Mike,  the Thai rd working with banks here will determine if one's remittances are assessable or not under Thai rules so if one sends money into Thailand, or if they do anything with ATM's or CC's, then those too will be determined by the RD to be assessable or not.  One may have documentation that something is not assessable (i.e. US govt Pension or LTR if that still stands) .  WOuld be nice for the RD to publish the final paper - but my feeling is they are still discussing the "HOW" of this before even beginning on the worldwide scheme.  Good luck to all

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I agree with Mike,  the Thai rd working with banks here will determine if one's remittances are assessable or not under Thai rules so if one sends money into Thailand, or if they do anything with ATM's or CC's, then those too will be determined by the RD to be assessable or not.  One may have documentation that something is not assessable (i.e. US govt Pension or LTR if that still stands) .  WOuld be nice for the RD to publish the final paper - but my feeling is they are still discussing the "HOW" of this before even beginning on the worldwide scheme.  Good luck to all

Perhaps I'm not being explicitly clear and simple enough in this when I say that the onus is on the tax filer/payer to self declare and self assess what he/she considers to be assessable income. That is funds that have been transferred from overseas, to Thailand (feel free to supplant the word remitted as long as it doesn't cause anxiety or confusion). Whether or not the TRD accepts what the taxpayer says is another matter, which I think is the point where your post begins.

 

But....didn't we have this and similar discussions at least fifty times since November 2023 and wasn't it agreed 49 times since! I mean, I'm all for a little nostalgia from time to time but this is looking like C.O.D.

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Perhaps I'm not being explicitly clear and simple enough in this when I say that the onus is on the tax filer/payer to self declare and self assess what he/she considers to be assessable income. That is funds that have been transferred from overseas, to Thailand (feel free to supplant the word remitted as long as it doesn't cause anxiety or confusion). Whether or not the TRD accepts what the taxpayer says is another matter, which I think is the point where your post begins.

 

But....didn't we have this and similar discussions at least fifty times since November 2023 and wasn't it agreed 49 times since! I mean, I'm all for a little nostalgia from time to time but this is looking like C.O.D.

I thhink it was more times than that...but as an old fart, the memory is not as sharp as you youngsters anymore...take care have a good one!

[Paris333]

New tax rules for foreign-sourced income

 

Key Provisions of Order No. P. 161/2566,

 

1.Foreign Income Reporting Starting January 1, 2024, all residents in Thailand must report income from abroad when it is brought into the country. This includes income from work, investments, and assets located outside Thailand. However, any income earned before this date can be transferred to Thailand tax-free if done by December 31, 2024.
2.Residency Condition Under Section 41, Paragraph 3, anyone staying in Thailand for one or more periods totaling at least 180 days in any tax year is considered a resident and must comply with these tax regulations.
3.Repeal of Conflicting Regulations Any previous regulations that contradict the new order are officially repealed. This move aims to eliminate inconsistencies and ensure a unified approach to foreign income taxation.
4.Exemption for Pre-2024 Income The amendment explicitly states that income earned before January 1, 2024, is exempt from these new provisions if transferred to Thailand by the end of 2024. This provides a grace period for taxpayers to adjust to the new rules.
5.Alignment with Prior Guidelines The new orders align with existing guidelines to ensure a smooth transition for both taxpayers and revenue officers. This helps in maintaining consistency and clarity in the application of tax laws.

Expatriates with Taxed Income For expatriates receiving income already taxed in another country, such as pensions, these amounts will not be subject to additional Thai taxes. This is particularly relevant for retirees living in Thailand who receive pensions from their home countries.

Source:

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/new-tax-rules-for-foreign-sourced-income-464735

[lordgrinz]

1 hour ago, Paris333 said:

4.Exemption for Pre-2024 Income The amendment explicitly states that income earned before January 1, 2024, is exempt from these new provisions if transferred to Thailand by the end of 2024. This provides a grace period for taxpayers to adjust to the new rules.

 

So what happens if savings are transferred after the end of 2024?!

[Klonko]

26 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

So what happens if savings are transferred after the end of 2024?!

True savings, e.g. balances of non interest bearing accounts before tax residency in Thailand or from inheritances (potentially subject to Thai inheritance tax) are not tax assessable income if remitted to Thailand. Other remittances of commingled foreign sources such as from financial investments with interest, dividends and capital gains or from property sales with realised gains may, and in my opinion will, qualify as at least partially tax assessable income, depending on the possibly never known accounting method applied consistently across TRD offices.

Edited July 4 by Klonko

[motdaeng]

 

that's new to me. how reliable is this source? 

 

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/new-tax-rules-for-foreign-sourced-income-464735

[andre47]

23 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

that's new to me. how reliable is this source? 

 

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/new-tax-rules-for-foreign-sourced-income-464735

All income earned before 1 January 2024 is subject to the old rules.

[redwood1]

31 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

that's new to me. how reliable is this source? 

 

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/new-tax-rules-for-foreign-sourced-income-464735

 

Think about this....

 

If you retired in Thailand...And this was true....This would mean you would have to transfer all the money you have into a Thai bank by the end of 2024 to avoid a tax...

 

Thats right folks all the money you would need for the rest of your life for your retirement in Thailand...

You would have to entrust a Thai bank with your entire savings to avoid a tax......lol

 

Does this sound like insanity to anyone else?....It sounds like 100% grade A   BS to me...

 

Like who could even think up this garbage?......

Edited July 5 by redwood1

[Mike Lister]

41 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

that's new to me. how reliable is this source? 

 

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/new-tax-rules-for-foreign-sourced-income-464735

 

Not reliable at all, nonsense in fact.

 

"According to the Revenue Departmental Order No. Por. 162/2566 re: Income Taxation under section 41, paragraph two, of the Revenue Code, dated 20 November 2023 ("Order No. 162"), offshore-sourced income received by Thai tax resident individuals before 2024 can be brought into Thailand in any subsequent year without being subject to Thai personal income tax. Order No. 162 is the supplemental amendment to the Revenue Departmental Order No. Por. 161/2566 ("Order No. 161"), providing additional guidance on the same matter".

 

https://insightplus.bakermckenzie.com/bm/tax/thailand-offshore-sourced-income-received-before-1-january-2024-can-be-brought-into-thailand-in-2024-or-later-without-being-subject-to-thai-personal-income-tax

[lordgrinz]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Not reliable at all, nonsense in fact.

 

"According to the Revenue Departmental Order No. Por. 162/2566 re: Income Taxation under section 41, paragraph two, of the Revenue Code, dated 20 November 2023 ("Order No. 162"), offshore-sourced income received by Thai tax resident individuals before 2024 can be brought into Thailand in any subsequent year without being subject to Thai personal income tax. Order No. 162 is the supplemental amendment to the Revenue Departmental Order No. Por. 161/2566 ("Order No. 161"), providing additional guidance on the same matter".

 

https://insightplus.bakermckenzie.com/bm/tax/thailand-offshore-sourced-income-received-before-1-january-2024-can-be-brought-into-thailand-in-2024-or-later-without-being-subject-to-thai-personal-income-tax

 

So two law firms (Victor Wong – Financial Analyst and Tax Expert, and Baker McKenzie) stating exactly the opposite? SMH.

[freeworld]

1 hour ago, motdaeng said:

 

that's new to me. how reliable is this source? 

 

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/new-tax-rules-for-foreign-sourced-income-464735

Haha questioning the Pattaya Mail article as a reliable source for tax rulings or for important tax info.

Edited July 5 by freeworld

[Mike Lister]

20 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

So two law firms (Victor Wong – Financial Analyst and Tax Expert, and Baker McKenzie) stating exactly the opposite? SMH.

You can't get much further opposite

[lordgrinz]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You can't get much further opposite

 

Should be a fun first couple of years of tax filing under the new changes, every tax expert will follow different rules, and every RD office will do the same......sounds just like Immigration, Fun Fun!! 😔

[Presnock]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

You can't get much further opposite

Isn't this exactly what we have said from the beginning - you and a couple of others put together some factual information for the readers...we were all guessing, then the experts/agents began advertising...until that final published document comes out not any one individual will have everything correct.  I know from your and others help near the beginning, that I learned a lot more about my own financial situation and it has enabled me to totally relax but it is sometimes hard to ignore some of the comments about this issue.  Just keep up the good work as you have helped the majority on this forum.

take care and have a good one!

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Presnock said:

Isn't this exactly what we have said from the beginning - you and a couple of others put together some factual information for the readers...we were all guessing, then the experts/agents began advertising...until that final published document comes out not any one individual will have everything correct.  I know from your and others help near the beginning, that I learned a lot more about my own financial situation and it has enabled me to totally relax but it is sometimes hard to ignore some of the comments about this issue.  Just keep up the good work as you have helped the majority on this forum.

take care and have a good one!

As with anything, it's important to consider the source of the information, If people buy the tabloids to find out legal information, they deserve what they get. Another option of course is to try best out of three, fortune cookies or similar perhaps.

[Presnock]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

As with anything, it's important to consider the source of the information, If people buy the tabloids to find out legal information, they deserve what they get. Another option of course is to try best out of three, fortune cookies or similar perhaps.

Especially anyone living here and having to rely on the locals to get things correct, maybe, sometimes or then again maybe not.   Life is great!  glad to see so much green again.

 

[Mike Lister]

Came across the following, purely by chance, perhaps it will prevent further carping from the sidelines:

 

https://www.lexisnexis.co.uk/tolley/tax/glossary/remittance

 

Remittance definition

Copyright © 2024 LexisNexis

/rɪˈmɪt(ə)ns/

 

Produced by a Tolley Personal Tax expert

What does Remittance mean?

Remittance is the sending of money from one person (or entity) to another, or from one place to another place. 

 

Remittances can have tax implications. For example, the payment of a business bill will usually attract some tax relief for the business. The type of remittance being made, can also trigger some tax obligations. For example, the payment of an employee’s salary may require the completion of payroll filings by the employer and the withholding of tax, national insurance and student loan repayments to pay over to HMRC.

 

[Searat7]

It seems that the Savings issue has been clarified for 2024 with a time limit to get your old savings into the country by year end but the RD has said nothing about taxing Global Worldwide income possibly starting next year.

 

Sometime I think they put things out there as trial balloons to gauge reaction which of course has been very negative ( Worldwide Income Tax).  So we can just wait and see what happens.

[Mike Lister]

28 minutes ago, Searat7 said:

It seems that the Savings issue has been clarified for 2024 with a time limit to get your old savings into the country by year end but the RD has said nothing about taxing Global Worldwide income possibly starting next year.

 

Sometime I think they put things out there as trial balloons to gauge reaction which of course has been very negative ( Worldwide Income Tax).  So we can just wait and see what happens.

That is not correct there is no time limit . Read the thread.

Edited July 5 by Mike Lister

[Searat7]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

That is not correct there is no time limit . Read the thread.

The article in Pattaya Mail yesterday looks very credible to me and a 12/31/24 deadline for bringing in old savings was clearly given. I see this as closing a loophole.

[Mike Lister]

18 minutes ago, Searat7 said:

The article in Pattaya Mail yesterday looks very credible to me and a 12/31/24 deadline for bringing in old savings was clearly given. I see this as closing a loophole.

Good for you, do you always get all your tax news from there! Hint: look u the wording of Por 162 at the revenue.

[andre47]

24 minutes ago, Searat7 said:

The article in Pattaya Mail yesterday looks very credible to me and a 12/31/24 deadline for bringing in old savings was clearly given. I see this as closing a loophole.

dream on...

[jwest10]

4 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Should be a fun first couple of years of tax filing under the new changes, every tax expert will follow different rules, and every RD office will do the same......sounds just like Immigration, Fun Fun!! 😔

Yes, lawyers everywhere are like the banks and other financial institutions and with all politicians one can not trust any of them and often fight each others

 

[BobBKK]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Came across the following, purely by chance, perhaps it will prevent further carping from the sidelines:

 

https://www.lexisnexis.co.uk/tolley/tax/glossary/remittance

 

Remittance definition

Copyright © 2024 LexisNexis

/rɪˈmɪt(ə)ns/

 

Produced by a Tolley Personal Tax expert

What does Remittance mean?

Remittance is the sending of money from one person (or entity) to another, or from one place to another place. 

 

Remittances can have tax implications. For example, the payment of a business bill will usually attract some tax relief for the business. The type of remittance being made, can also trigger some tax obligations. For example, the payment of an employee’s salary may require the completion of payroll filings by the employer and the withholding of tax, national insurance and student loan repayments to pay over to HMRC.

 

 Does remittance also mean government pensions, Mike? Sorry it's probably been raised before.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Does remittance also mean government pensions, Mike? Sorry it's probably been raised before.

Please read the interpretation quoted, it's the sending of money from one to another.

[TheAppletons]

6 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Does remittance also mean government pensions, Mike? Sorry it's probably been raised before.

 

  Of course it does.

 

  It does not, however, mean that a remittance of a government pension results in assessable income for Thai tax purposes.

 

  (Check your home country's DTA to see if government pensions are covered.)

[BobBKK]

1 minute ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  Of course it does.

 

  It does not, however, mean that a remittance of a government pension results in assessable income for Thai tax purposes.

 

  (Check your home country's DTA to see if government pensions are covered.)

 UK no DTA unfortunately