Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[atpeace]

12 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Russian IT professionals live here, work from home for Russian companies,  get very good salaries and pay zero tax in Thailand. 

 

German pensioners live here,  get their pensions tax free from Germany (according to DTA only Thailand can tax them) and pay zero tax in Thailand. They are completely untaxed.

 

Absentee landlords live here,  pay taxes for rentals not here (where they live) but abroad because of a more favorable tax regime there (e.g. can deduct renovation cost).  

 

Many Westerners fall under the threshold where they have to pay taxes in their home countries, often pretending they are still living there. These thresholds are quite high in the West because the minimum income needed  to exist there is high.  But they live in Thailand,  enjoying the low minimum needed to exist. They don't see that accordingly the minimum threshold to pay taxes is low.

I know people living on 20-30,000 baht.  Told to be careful about Thai taxes the answer is "I fall under the threshold in my home country" (which they haven't seen for decades).

 

In my home country,  dividends and interest are tax-free for non-residents.

In theory,  one should include them in a Thai tax return. 

 

 

These are just some examples that come to mind immediately. 

I am all for taxing these people.

But not me, please!

 

 

Good points. 

 

I believe that if you filed a tax return in your country on income earned there then no taxes should be paid here. Should poor individuals be taxed here that fall under the tax threshold in their home country? I don't think so and  it is chasing peanuts.  The new tax laws are IMO chasing the offenders that aren't filing tax returns in any country (Thais and expats). 

 

It is a guessing game at this point but in the end whatever might be implemented will be manageable.  Not saying there won't be issues but in the end(hopefully before my end) it won't impact expats that file returns in their home country.  My "opinion" is based on the system that has been in place for decades and decades throughout the world that is now looking at the means to taxing freeloaders.

 

[atpeace]

1 hour ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

Well those non citizens retirees in the USA can buy and own property to name but one example.

Good point . Many 2nd and 3rd world countries do the same for some reason but do wish I could own land.  Countries have different laws to the benefit of their citizens in most cases.  I think Thailand has treated me wonderfully and easy visas and reporting are the best part.  I will try to follow these tax threads and glean what i can but at this point there is not much to be gained.  Not saying the threads are not needed!

Edited June 9 by atpeace

[Lorry]

37 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

.Being called dirty farang.

What's wrong about calling a spade a spade?

 

37 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

I cant recall a single policy or program that was designed to make expats life better ever...

I can. 

Changes in the last 20 years:

 

English courses for public servants,  and English classes at school. 

It has become very easy to live in Thailand without a word of Thai.

 

Call center,  in English,  of the State Railway of Thailand. They answer the phone and are competent. 

In my home country,  this does not exist. 

 

Call center,  in English,  of Immigration. They answer the phone and are as competent as it gets at Immigration. 

I once tried to call Immigration at Seattle, in their native language, not in Thai. After 30 minutes of computer menus, my American friend took the phone. After 15 minutes more,  he gave up.

 

Tourist police nowadays often answer the phone and speak English. 

 

Online appointment system at Immigration.

 

International departments at important government hospitals, can speak English,  handle international insurances and repatriarions, understands the very special way of thinking of farang. Example: Vachira Phuket.

 

I leave away BoI, one-stop service, LTR, WP related questions. 

I also leave away the private sector. 

 

 

 

Edited June 9 by Lorry

[Lorry]

22 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

I am not aware of this. Can you provide the link please.

I am not your maid, sorry.

[MeePeeMai]

5 minutes ago, atpeace said:

I will try to follow these tax threads and glean what i can but at this point there is not much to be gained.  Not saying the threads are not needed!

 

I like to plan ahead and be prepared for anything that I see coming.  That's just me. 

 

It might fall through the cracks or it might not be as bad as it seems but then again, I want to be prepared and be proactive (not reactive).  

 

I guess my biggest fear is that they will make it retroactive to 2024 in which case many will get caught out.  

[MeePeeMai]

7 minutes ago, Lorry said:

What's wrong about calling a spade a spade?

 

 

Thanks for a good laugh!  I needed that.

[atpeace]

3 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

I like to plan ahead and be prepared for anything that I see coming.  That's just me. 

 

It might fall through the cracks or it might not be as bad as it seems but then again, I want to be prepared and be proactive (not reactive).  

 

I guess my biggest fear is that they will make it retroactive to 2024 in which case many will get caught out.  

I too want to be prepared but this thread hasn't helped as of yet in the least.  Maybe more info will come out in the future on this thread or others of the same type.  Cheers!

[MeePeeMai]

2 minutes ago, atpeace said:

but this thread hasn't helped as of yet in the least

 

I understand, but it's helped me a lot by way of forcing me to examine my potential Thai tax situation.  It's also prodded me to look deeper into the USA/Thai tax treaty and try to figure out what I will be up against if this becomes law.  I have also learned a lot from others on the current Thai tax rules as well as allowing me to adjust my plan B and C accordingly.

 

I too want the facts but it's too early to get any right now.  Going over scenarios and being prepared can't hurt though.

 

 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

 

Have you been living it a cave fore the past 20 years or what?

 

Maybe many years ago expats were welcomed in Thailand but for at least the last 20 years they have just been tolerated at best...

 

I cant recall a single policy or program that was designed to make expats life better ever...

 

Checking in with immigration every 90 days like criminals....Being called dirty farang.....Double pricing seems just fine with the government....God forbid if you wanted a marriage visa and the hell you had to go through to get that...Ever tightening and more complicated visa rules......bla bla bla  need I go on?

 

It been a looong time since expats felt welcomed...

Don't expect me to fall for your aggressive response. However, I regularly travel back and forth between my condo in Najomtien and my wife's house in the area around Buri Ram, and no, I would not describe these places as you did.

 

With the absence of a bonafide retirement visa, the Thai government has always tolerated and accepted me as a Non-Immigrant and that is all I ever expected. I'm sorry it took you 20 years to realize that you're not loved by the Thai government.

 

Well, policies with respect to Non-Immigrant visas/issues do exist. With the exception of LTR, obviously programs for retirees do not. Most retired individuals are ignorant to the simple fact that Thailand is not a retirement destination per se.

 

In my experience there have not been any tightening visa rules and calling these rules complicated is just plain wrong. And name calling in newspapers or double pricing is and was never an issue for me.

[TheAppletons]

2 hours ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

I wonder about the absence of Mike Lister. Not only will he need to update The Simple Tax Guide, but I also miss his balanced and no-nonsense perspective on Thai tax issues.

 

  There's nothing to update in the tax guide because nothing has changed.  

 

  Everyone on this thread is getting all worked up over an off-hand comment that is not anywhere close to becoming a rule, a regulation, an accepted practice, or a law.  

 

  (IIRC, Mike Lister is taking a two week holiday.)  

[CharlesHolzhauer]

8 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  There's nothing to update in the tax guide because nothing has changed.  

 

  Everyone on this thread is getting all worked up over an off-hand comment that is not anywhere close to becoming a rule, a regulation, an accepted practice, or a law.  

 

  (IIRC, Mike Lister is taking a two week holiday.)  

I didn't think that the recent remittance issue is covered in the tax guide - I'd better revisit and read again.

 

Yes, I know - I am especially disappointed by the comments made by a couple of posters who have completely lost their heads. They previously commented on the tax issues in a more balanced and reasonable manner.

 

Thanks for advising about Mike's absence.

[Sheryl]

A number of baiting/flaming posts and replies to same have been removed. Please keep it civil.

[Sheryl]

42 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  There's nothing to update in the tax guide because nothing has changed.  

 

  Everyone on this thread is getting all worked up over an off-hand comment that is not anywhere close to becoming a rule, a regulation, an accepted practice, or a law.  

 

 

 

I would not characterize a public statement buy the Director-General of the Revenue Department as an off-hand remark.

 

It is pretty clear that the RD is proposing this, though the details of their proposal aren't clear.

 

However quite true that it is not yet law, and there are many steps required for it to become so.

 

Which makes now the time to make voices heard.

 

Worth noting that the US, one of the few countries that currently  taxes global income, does so only on its own citizens and permanent residents. Non-resident aliens are taxed only on US-derived income, regardless of how long physically in the US.

 

So if Thailand were to tax the foreign income of non-residents (i.e. people with non immigrant visas, which is most of us), this would be pretty unusual.

[Mike Lister]

49 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  There's nothing to update in the tax guide because nothing has changed.  

 

  Everyone on this thread is getting all worked up over an off-hand comment that is not anywhere close to becoming a rule, a regulation, an accepted practice, or a law.  

 

  (IIRC, Mike Lister is taking a two week holiday.)  

 

34 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

I didn't think that the recent remittance issue is covered in the tax guide - I'd better revisit and read again.

 

Yes, I know - I am especially disappointed by the comments made by a couple of posters who have completely lost their heads. They previously commented on the tax issues in a more balanced and reasonable manner.

 

Thanks for advising about Mike's absence.

Mike has withdrawn from the forum entirely, in part because of the toxic scaremongering surrounding the latest announcement from the revenue director which has been blown out of all proportion and can't be reigned on. The herd is at full gallop.

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, atpeace said:

I'm not trying to be a dkhead.  I just want some answers. I don't want to pay additional taxes on top of what I have already paid in the USA but as of yet don't sense I will and hence the lack of concern.

 

The USA and many other countries require "retired" tax residents that aren't citizens to file.  Most these individuals get little in return other than being able to use the infrastructure in such country.  There are many globe trotters not paying taxes and being funded by those that do.  Interesting times and a global tax is interesting but IMO not going to be a reality for many years.

 

Do you think individuals living in Thailand that have income and don't include this income on tax returns submitted in their home country should be taxed here?

depends as many may have low pensions or social security that is not "assessable" for taxes in their home country but as the Thai tax tables are different, these pensioners or SSl recipients will possibly be taxed here in Thailand unless they are protected by a well stated DTA concerning their income.  Hopefully very few will be affected.

[freedomnow]

I guess some that are eligible for these taxes may remit to their partner to get around it but she then may be liable for the lost revenue or the partner when it surfaces later through a papertrail.

 

I bet it gets repealed like everything else in LoS as unworkable.

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

Landlords (at least in the USA) get to deduct or write off many things on their taxes i.e. their property tax, utilities paid, depreciation of the rental, interest on the mortgage, fire insurance, flood insurance, hurricane insurance, repairs, maintenance costs, landscaping or yard maintenance, management fees etc.

 

If the Thai RD only sees and taxes your rental "income" and disallows your expenses (mentioned above) either by law or by way of making the burden of proof too onerous then this will be a big deal for some of us.

only chance might be providing tax filings with the Revenue Department but don't really have any idea what will be affected if this latest change  becomes fact.

[rocketboy2]

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Mike has withdrawn from the forum entirely, in part because of the toxic scaremongering surrounding the latest announcement from the revenue director which has been blown out of all proportion and can't be reigned on. The herd is at full gallop.

 

Come back Mike , we like you.

[beammeup]

1 minute ago, rocketboy2 said:

 

Come back Mike , we like you.

speak for yourself

[CharlesHolzhauer]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Mike has withdrawn from the forum entirely, in part because of the toxic scaremongering surrounding the latest announcement from the revenue director which has been blown out of all proportion and can't be reigned on. The herd is at full gallop.

This is very sad indeed. Thank you for the work and effort you put into the tax issues. You will be missed. Mike, I wish you well!

[NoDisplayName]

4 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

But one thing we know is that they don’t allow deductions for losses. So those already paying tax on capital gains less capital losses will likely have more to pay in Thailand. 

 

You see, the system was originally set up.....and maintained..... for those with money and power to keep their money and power.

 

Stock and bond interest and dividend tax is kept low......for Thai stocks and Thai bonds and Thai dividends.

 

But that's not where the real money is.

 

Capital gains..........again for Thai stocks..............is zero.  So those with massive wealth can create more massive wealth by manipulating the market and through insider trading.

 

Any income from overseas can be hidden in family business front organizations or shell corporations for effectively zero tax.

 

"If you want your ill-gotten booty, you can keep your ill-gotten booty"

[CharlesHolzhauer]

9 minutes ago, beammeup said:

speak for yourself

you couldn't get any lower, could you

[NoDisplayName]

4 hours ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Concerning - yes. If the law is passed then ignoring it would be unwise.

 

Waiting until final passage and approval to become concerned is what would be unwise.

 

If the changes are made this year, they can become effective as soon as Jan 01, 2025, with first batch of new taxes due March 2026.  This means to avoid the 180 day tax residence trap, plans must be in place to bug out before June 27, 2025.

 

Have you plans and options prepared.  More than one, as there's no telling what more surprises could be in store for us.

 

Do it now.

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, beammeup said:

Your stance is not popular because they are your opinions

...but extremely well thought out opinions -- which is the best we can go with, until further clarification from the govt.

[lordgrinz]

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

...but extremely well thought out opinions -- which is the best we can go with, until further clarification from the govt.

Speaking of which, does anyyone know what MFP's stance is on these new tax changes? For that matter, are these changes even acceptable to Pheu Thai's reluctant partners (the army, Royalist Elites)?

Edited June 9 by lordgrinz

[Yumthai]

16 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Any income from overseas can be hidden in family business front organizations or shell corporations for effectively zero tax.

Then when cash is needed they just borrow tax-free from the corporate entity.

[beammeup]

14 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

you couldn't get any lower, could you

Sure I could. I don't think that was low at all. I acknowledge his effort but it was at times misleading and inaccurate.

 

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, Thailand J said:

the personal exemption is $14600, next $47025 is taxed at 0%,

 

Just these two items are fully 'taxable' in the US, but result in a zero tax liability.  (Ignore IRA contributions or spouse/child exemptions and other deductions and credits for simplicity.}

 

All of those above would NOT be deducted from assessable income by Thai tax authorities.

 

Just the first two items would result in a ฿365,000 tax due to Thailand.

 

And then you have to factor in that Thailand does not allow offsetting capital gains with capital losses,  so the final bill could be much, much higher.

 

So an update to my plan.........we can keep the Isaaaan homestead for 6 months of the year, then spend 4 months in Cambodia.  Another month vacationing in Laos or China, and I'll take a month to travel independently while hunny-bunny can visit her relatives.

 

If I'm looking at a potential $10-12K ANNUAL tax bill, how many years of that would it take to purchase a decent little condo in Cambodia?

 

If I plan it right, won't need to bother with 'retirement' visa here.  60 days at a land border with a 30-day extension, twice a year, solves that problem.  End of 90-day reports to my probation officer!

Edited June 9 by NoDisplayName

[daveAustin]

3 hours ago, Lorry said:

Russian IT professionals live here, work from home for Russian companies,  get very good salaries and pay zero tax in Thailand. 

 

German pensioners live here,  get their pensions tax free from Germany (according to DTA only Thailand can tax them) and pay zero tax in Thailand. They are completely untaxed.

 

Absentee landlords live here,  pay taxes for rentals not here (where they live) but abroad because of a more favorable tax regime there (e.g. can deduct renovation cost).  

 

Many Westerners fall under the threshold where they have to pay taxes in their home countries, often pretending they are still living there. These thresholds are quite high in the West because the minimum income needed  to exist there is high.  But they live in Thailand,  enjoying the low minimum needed to exist. They don't see that accordingly the minimum threshold to pay taxes is low.

I know people living on 20-30,000 baht.  Told to be careful about Thai taxes the answer is "I fall under the threshold in my home country" (which they haven't seen for decades).

 

In my home country,  dividends and interest are tax-free for non-residents.

In theory,  one should include them in a Thai tax return. 

 

 

These are just some examples that come to mind immediately. 

I am all for taxing these people.

But not me, please!

 

 

Good points in theory but what has any of that got to do with non immigrants? Essentially people that have no voting rights nor cannot own land etc etc. If Thailand wants to play big brother by grabbing its visitors’ cash, it should grow up and stop taking its cake and eating it. 

[JimGant]

59 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

So if Thailand were to tax the foreign income of non-residents (i.e. people with non immigrant visas, which is most of us), this would be pretty unusual.

Don't confuse non immigrants with non residents, at least for tax purposes. All DTAs spell out how to define who's a resident for tax purposes. For us expats, that's being here over 180 days, cumulative, in a tax year.