Make take on the new tax laws and panic

[KhunHeineken]

On 6/13/2024 at 1:24 AM, Presnock said:

Well, real experts on Thailand know for sure that the expression TIT means that nothing is certain and anything certain could change immediately or the governing bodies could change immediately followed by a change to ANY situation.  I first lived in Thailand in the early 70's and have seen numerous changes on just about everything except the changes.  My take anyway.

Well said. 

 

Thailand is an unstable country, but particularly more so for foreigners, who actually have no right to continue to reside here, except for a retirement visa, which is no more than a 12 month tourist visa, and can be revoked at anytime for the individual, or policy changes that may see many no longer to qualify for the visa. 

[brian2322]

I think you could limit your time out of country to 6 months every 2 years if you play around with the remittances.  Last year I remitted enough so I don't need to remit this year and can "wait and see".  Next year if the burden (mental/bureaucratic/financial) becomes too great I'll remit enough for 2026 and leave after 179 days.  

 

1.) Stay in country in 2025 179 days, remit enough to live on for those 179 days + 2026.  Not a tax resident for 2025 so that large remittance isn't taxable.

 

2.) Leave for the rest of 2025.  

 

3.) Come back in 2026 and live off what was remitted in step 1.

 

4.) Stay for 179 days in 2027 and repeat step 1.

 

Obviously doesn't work for everyone's circumstances (especially pensions/social security), and technically currently all my money is pre-2024 savings + investment/interest income.  My fear is more around the bureaucracy and the FIFO/LIFO argument.  

 

If they try to do the global worldwide income approach (one comment from 1 person at a seminar that sounded like brainstorming) that's a different ball of wax.  But remittances make it cleaner, you have more control over the tax you will owe.  

 

I'm on the elite visa FWIW, so I'm afraid that's a pretty easy list to parse if they are looking to just target higher net-worth individuals.  

 

[CallumWK]

34 minutes ago, brian2322 said:

I think you could limit your time out of country to 6 months every 2 years if you play around with the remittances.  Last year I remitted enough so I don't need to remit this year and can "wait and see".  Next year if the burden (mental/bureaucratic/financial) becomes too great I'll remit enough for 2026 and leave after 179 days.  

 

1.) Stay in country in 2025 179 days, remit enough to live on for those 179 days + 2026.  Not a tax resident for 2025 so that large remittance isn't taxable.

 

2.) Leave for the rest of 2025.  

 

3.) Come back in 2026 and live off what was remitted in step 1.

 

4.) Stay for 179 days in 2027 and repeat step 1.

 

Obviously doesn't work for everyone's circumstances (especially pensions/social security), and technically currently all my money is pre-2024 savings + investment/interest income.  My fear is more around the bureaucracy and the FIFO/LIFO argument.  

 

If they try to do the global worldwide income approach (one comment from 1 person at a seminar that sounded like brainstorming) that's a different ball of wax.  But remittances make it cleaner, you have more control over the tax you will owe.  

 

I'm on the elite visa FWIW, so I'm afraid that's a pretty easy list to parse if they are looking to just target higher net-worth individuals.  

 

 

Are you sure that's how it works?

I think once you have a tax ID, you'll have it forever, regardless how many days you are in the country some years.

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, brian2322 said:

I think you could limit your time out of country to 6 months every 2 years if you play around with the remittances.  Last year I remitted enough so I don't need to remit this year and can "wait and see".  Next year if the burden (mental/bureaucratic/financial) becomes too great I'll remit enough for 2026 and leave after 179 days.  

 

1.) Stay in country in 2025 179 days, remit enough to live on for those 179 days + 2026.  Not a tax resident for 2025 so that large remittance isn't taxable.

 

2.) Leave for the rest of 2025.  

 

3.) Come back in 2026 and live off what was remitted in step 1.

 

4.) Stay for 179 days in 2027 and repeat step 1.

 

Obviously doesn't work for everyone's circumstances (especially pensions/social security), and technically currently all my money is pre-2024 savings + investment/interest income.  My fear is more around the bureaucracy and the FIFO/LIFO argument.  

 

If they try to do the global worldwide income approach (one comment from 1 person at a seminar that sounded like brainstorming) that's a different ball of wax.  But remittances make it cleaner, you have more control over the tax you will owe.  

 

I'm on the elite visa FWIW, so I'm afraid that's a pretty easy list to parse if they are looking to just target higher net-worth individuals.  

 

 

28 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

Are you sure that's how it works?

I think once you have a tax ID, you'll have it forever, regardless how many days you are in the country some years.

Both of you should read the pinned Tax Guide.

A TIN doesn't mean you have to file or pay taxes.

Whether Brians idea works has been discussed in the main tax thread anf the result is, we just don't know whether the RD accepts this.  

[brian2322]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

 

Both of you should read the pinned Tax Guide.

A TIN doesn't mean you have to file or pay taxes.

Whether Brians idea works has been discussed in the main tax thread anf the result is, we just don't know whether the RD accepts this.  

 

"Not so. The target in all of this is well to do middle class and wealthy Thai's who have been exploiting tax loopholes and avoiding taxes. As much as farangs think they are the center of the universe here, they are nothing more than collateral damage, to start with, there are far more middle and upper wealth class Thai's than there are farangs in Thailand. Plus, farangs only need to be non resident for one year, during which they can import as much money as they want, free of Thai tax, that's only 185 days out of the country."

 

I took your advice and found the above in the Tax Guide posted by Mike Lister.  So I don't even need to stay out 6 months every 2 years, just 185 days and then decide how many year's worth of remittances I want to send.  That's a relief...

Edited June 22 by brian2322

[steve187]

On 6/9/2024 at 7:09 PM, AreYouGerman said:

What you don't understand - they don't care. Provide the proof that you paid taxes or you won't get your temporary 1 year extension. And that's the end of it.

a scaremongering post

[AreYouGerman]

4 hours ago, steve187 said:

a scaremongering post

 

I am not trying to scaremonger, I am just able to read the room. I started first in Thailand with just overstaying 2-3 years in my 20s and nobody cared, going to a bank and seeing some foreigner dropping a couple of million of bahts from his backpack on the table, and seeing where we are now.

[Lorry]

8 hours ago, brian2322 said:

 

"Not so. The target in all of this is well to do middle class and wealthy Thai's who have been exploiting tax loopholes and avoiding taxes. As much as farangs think they are the center of the universe here, they are nothing more than collateral damage, to start with, there are far more middle and upper wealth class Thai's than there are farangs in Thailand. Plus, farangs only need to be non resident for one year, during which they can import as much money as they want, free of Thai tax, that's only 185 days out of the country."

 

I took your advice and found the above in the Tax Guide posted by Mike Lister.  So I don't even need to stay out 6 months every 2 years, just 185 days and then decide how many year's worth of remittances I want to send.  That's a relief...

I didn't know the tax guide writes "185 days". The point is: you cannot be in Thailand more than 179 days in that calendar year. Day of arrival and day of departure count. So you should be out of the country 186 days.

 

There was some discussion in the main tax thread whether this would really work.The RD has never explicitly stated whether it works or not, so some people are suspicious. 

 

[jonwilly]

Gents I only learned of this proposed Tax on Income, brought into Thailand the other week when I saw the Bangkok Post headlining the feature.

I live in a Retirement Home and no one else here had heard of the proposed tax, several have suggested I am talking  Poo.

I have been trying to learn more but am having difficulties.

I will write what I believe to be correct, please correct if you know better.

1) At this moment it is a proposed tax not yet law.

2) Everything I read suggests it will become law and is dated back to 1st January 2024.

3) My UK Old Age pension is subject to the income tax but my UK Forces pension is not subject to tax.

4) I cashed in my last UK investment and brought out 30,000 pounds this year and this will put me into the 35% tax bracket for this year.

5) in a normal year my income will be under the B150.000 which attracts no Thai tax.

6) A friend sent me a report from a Lecture delivered to Pattaya Expats club by an Expert. this suggests that the proposed tax may never happen and that its main proposal is to catch the Multi Billionaire who keep their money outside Thailand

     and only bring money into Thailand as and when they require it to settle bills, however We Retired Folk will be caught by the law.

7) We are require to fill in a Tax Form every year as we spend more than 180 days a year in Thailand. I have never known a Frang who is not in business to declare to the tax authorities each year as we are supposed to do.

8) Does anyone know of a reputable Tax adviser ?

9) Any and all advice is appreciated.

 

John 

 

[topt]

7 hours ago, jonwilly said:

9) Any and all advice is appreciated.

Have you read this?

https://aseannow.com/topic/1324294-introduction-to-personal-income-tax-in-thailand/

 

1, 2 and 6 - If they go ahead with taxing world wide income unlikely to start before 1st Jan 2025 as would be a change of the law and various processes need to be followed first - although anything could happen........The revised interpretation on remittances came into effect from 1st Jan 2024. That is now live.

 

3 - correct

4 - remember the tax is tiered - see link above. 

7 - If you have no tax to pay and you don't file what are they going to do........It is also only if you have more than a certain level of asessable income - again see link.

[KhunHeineken]

16 hours ago, jonwilly said:

I will write what I believe to be correct,

Why not just read the law, and not what you "want" to be correct?

[atpeace]

On 6/9/2024 at 6:43 PM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

There are so many things wrong in the OP but there are also some things that are right.  Which ones will be right and wrong in the future is the issue/concern.  I will not debate the rights and wrongs of each point right now, but I will add the big issue that many people overlook.

 

When you get nabbed for speeding, not wearing helmet, over staying, etc etc etc. The penalties are 'singular' and are not that heavy - yes they could include deportation - but they are singular in their legal nature.  Imagine if the Thai police pulled you over for not wearing a helmet in 2030, and because of that they have the ability to find out every single time you did not wear a helmet going back to 2024. Plus they can then arbitrarily decide how much fines you should have paid, plus apply penalties for not paying those fines, plus add 1.5% per month interest penalty on those amounts - all going back to 2024.  That is being audited by the tax office - they go backwards and examine everything, and in Thailand they have a lot of arbitrary power and are not constrained by reasonable/fair rules and regulations.  In the case of Thailand, it would be back to 2024. It is not about getting away withy it one year - there is no getting away with it for one year - if they investigate your financial affairs in 2030 they can and will go back to 2024.

 

Thinking that it will be OK because they will take years to get this all sorted is only OK if you will not be here in years.  Yes - it will take them years, but then if you are caught/targeted, they can and will audit you going back to 2024. Thailand can now get all the financial records from your home country, and also in Thailand, going back to 2024 when they complied with OECD regulations. 

 

If you are only staying a few years, then go right ahead and ignore it, if you feel so inclined - but if you are planning to be here a long time, then you would be wise to not dismiss it out of hand like this OP has suggested.  It will take a while before we know how the TRD is going to play this for retired/married Expats, but until then it is best to stay across things and not dismiss it out of hand.  

 

Great post and valid points. 25  years here and many more possibly - I feel no fear at the moment but good to keep informed just in case we actually learn something.  At this point, this thread is a circular thread that makes it blatantly obvious we all are basically clueless.  I get a good laugh reading the posts and in the end it does serve a purpose (mostly entertainment). 

 

I would be concerned if I was using Thailand for tax avoidance in my home country or if I was Thai ( little fear because the Thai wealthy have demanded huge loopholes in the tax code ) bringing in income or cap gains.  I'm neither so nothing to fear at the moment other than getting hit by lightning.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 6/26/2024 at 11:07 AM, jonwilly said:

Gents I only learned of this proposed Tax on Income, brought into Thailand the other week when I saw the Bangkok Post headlining the feature.

I live in a Retirement Home and no one else here had heard of the proposed tax, several have suggested I am talking  Poo.

I have been trying to learn more but am having difficulties.

I will write what I believe to be correct, please correct if you know better.

 

1) At this moment it is a proposed tax not yet law.

The RULE has been changed - how that affects Expats and their income/pensions etc. is the matter of debate

 

2) Everything I read suggests it will become law and is dated back to 1st January 2024.

Yes - started 1 Jan 2024

 

3) My UK Old Age pension is subject to the income tax but my UK Forces pension is not subject to tax.

Uncertain - depends on TRD in local Amphur, what the TRD rules mean, and what the DTAs mean.

 

4) I cashed in my last UK investment and brought out 30,000 pounds this year and this will put me into the 35% tax bracket for this year.

If income then it might be taxable - if savings it is not - but will it be enforced who knows.

 

5) in a normal year my income will be under the B150.000 which attracts no Thai tax.

OK

 

6) A friend sent me a report from a Lecture delivered to Pattaya Expats club by an Expert. this suggests that the proposed tax may never happen and that its main proposal is to catch the Multi Billionaire who keep their money outside Thailand and only bring money into Thailand as and when they require it to settle bills, however We Retired Folk will be caught by the law.

True.  Will TRD enforce the new 'tax regime' in every Amphur and target Expats - that same person knows. 

 

7) We are require to fill in a Tax Form every year as we spend more than 180 days a year in Thailand. I have never known a Frang who is not in business to declare to the tax authorities each year as we are supposed to do.

No. Yes you are a 'tax resident' but doing a tax return is not compulsory and (based on advice) not required to be done unless you have income taxes to pay. Some interpret the Laws/Rules literally - I do not and advice I have says not to. 

 

😎 Does anyone know of a reputable Tax adviser ?

Not as in has done my returns before and was good.

 

9) Any and all advice is appreciated.

All done on the basis that it is my opinions only and I am not a tax expert/lawyer. 

 

The best advice I got, and always give, is to keep your head down and stay away from TRD for as long as possible. And if ever questioned in the future and then told to pay up (very unlikely), plead ignorance and beg for forgiveness.  Wait and see how things develop over the next year or two - then and only then will we know what TRD's 'common practice' will be regarding Expats who are retired/married.

 

John 

 

 

[djlest]

meanwhile in neighbouring countries - ahem!

come on Thailand - keep shooting below the belt