Putin Promises 'Immediate' Peace if Ukraine Drops NATO Bid and Cedes Occupied Territories

[stoner]

On 6/14/2024 at 7:43 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

and Ukraine will even more destroyed

 

and blackrock could not be happpier. 

[AreYouGerman]

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If I wanted pablum I would cook some oatmeal. 

 

At least you are arguing at the lunacy level of NATO! 😂

 

Everything gets censored away again, so I am out of this thread again.

 

Edited June 16 by AreYouGerman

[NativeBob]

Pres Ze went to CHF and got some more promises of weapons. 

2 questions:

since UA is bankrupt [already] how they will pay for quadrupled arms?

since May 20 (something) his presidency expired that makes him just a private citizen. a tourist, how do they deal with him? unshaved boy in cargo pants and T-shirt? nothing he signs is valid AFAIK

[rabas]

1 minute ago, AreYouGerman said:

I have a great idea!

 

Make a peace conference and don't invite the other war participant.

 

Then, tell the winning side that it should agree to unconditional surrender.

 

Putin refused to go long in advance. 

 

So, if Putin invaded, and Putin refuses to attend peace talks, then Putin is the sole source of the war.

 

[NativeBob]

5 minutes ago, AreYouGerman said:

Then, tell the winning side that it should agree to unconditional surrender.

don't forget to steal their gov. money and interests on that money 

[rabas]

9 minutes ago, AreYouGerman said:

 

So. There's a war right now, right? And peace would mean a ceasefire, right?

 

So, if both party agree on peace and one side doesn't follow it. What would it mean?

 

Let me help you, bro, as you seem to have difficulties with that part.

 

It would mean there would be still war and no ceasefire.

Too complicated with logical flaws.

 

Let me make it simple. Putin started the war. If Putin withdraws there can be peace tomorrow. 

 

 

Edited June 16 by rabas

[Bkk Brian]

To the hero's who don't care about the distractors, they are there to save Ukraine for their families & children.

 

Ukrainian men are fighting for a bright future for their children.
Thank you for your service.
Happy Father’s Day!

 

 

[Woof999]

21 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

Pres Ze went to CHF and got some more promises of weapons. 

2 questions:

since UA is bankrupt [already] how they will pay for quadrupled arms?

since May 20 (something) his presidency expired that makes him just a private citizen. a tourist, how do they deal with him? unshaved boy in cargo pants and T-shirt? nothing he signs is valid AFAIK

 

So that would mean both parties to the war have illegitimate Presidents. Do you honestly believe Putin is in office through the vote of the common people?

[beautifulthailand99]

4 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

 

So that would mean both parties to the war have illegitimate Presidents. Do you honestly believe Putin is in office through the vote of the common people?

He's about as legitimate as the Thai PM which isn't much and he neuters any possible contenders as soon as he can and has the state media punting him. That said he probably would get 50% approval and probably a lot more on a fair plebiscite if such a thing could be done. He's no Saddam. We can't know the current popularity of Zelenskyi as we still have martial law - but general opinion suggests that Zalunhyi his sacked head of the armed forces would probaly win a presidential election if it was a 2 horse race.

 

https://kyivindependent.com/poll-ukrainians-trust-in-zelensky-declines-trust-in-zaluzhnyi-is-high/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_image_of_Vladimir_Putin

[beautifulthailand99]

58 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Blowing hard for more war eh? 

 

Would you like to prove that or just feel that a worthless meme and link is more your style? Who started this genocidal war against Ukraine? Who could stop today?

Your reply is noted.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Your reply is noted.

As was your baseless accusation

[VBer]

53 minutes ago, rabas said:

Let me make it simple. Putin started the war. If Putin withdraws there can be peace tomorrow. 

 

This is just impossible. The key reason is Crimea, which is deeply integrated to Russia now. For over than 10 years people in Crimea are living under same laws, same currency, same language and so on. Children are born, diplomas received, pensions earned, healthcare policies implemented. There is no acceptable way to cut it out, either for Putin, either for Russian people.

[Woof999]

9 minutes ago, VBer said:

There is no acceptable way to cut it out, either for Putin, either for Russian people.

 

Putin created that problem. It is not a reason to not do the right thing.

 

Yeah I know I stole your car, but I've booked it in for a service next week and the kids have gotten used to it, so better that I just keep it.

[tgw]

I disagree with the opening post which I see as slightly disinformative, since Putin ties other ridiculous demands to that "peace offer". His proposal would leave Ukraine defenceless against further aggression from Russia.

 

I urge editors to research sensitive topics before posting content that could potentially not reflect the full picture.

 

See details here:

 

Edited June 16 by tgw

[VBer]

3 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Yeah I know I stole your car, but I've booked it in for a service next week and the kids have gotten used to it, so better that I just keep it.

People and their lives are not a property.

Yes, Putin created this problem. This not changes a fact that now there is no possible way to fix it in Ukranian way.

[Woof999]

2 minutes ago, VBer said:

This not changes a fact that now there is no possible way to fix it in Ukranian way.

 

Of course there is. Putin had to do it when he stole the land. Everything on the Crimean peninsular was fully integrated into Ukraine and had been for at least half a century. Putin undid it all. It can be undone again.

[VBer]

1 minute ago, Woof999 said:

Of course there is. Putin had to do it when he stole the land. Everything on the Crimean peninsular was fully integrated into Ukraine and had been for at least half a century. Putin undid it all. It can be undone again.

The difference between us is that you are talking about land while I'm talking about people.

As for the land, there is no technical problem to give it back to Ukraine.

As for people, this just impossible. 

How about asking Crimean people, are they want to be part of Ukraine again? The result will be devastating. Or you willing to do so anyway and not care at all how many lives will be broken?

[Woof999]

1 minute ago, VBer said:

The difference between us is that you are talking about land while I'm talking about people.

As for the land, there is no technical problem to give it back to Ukraine.

As for people, this just impossible. 

How about asking Crimean people, are they want to be part of Ukraine again? The result will be devastating. Or you willing to do so anyway and not care at all how many lives will be broken?

 

Weren't those lives broken in 2014? Isn't Putin forcing the assimilation of thousands of Ukrainian children from areas well outside of Crimea to become Russian? Do those broken lives not matter? Why is it only now impossible to reverse Putin's crimes, when he did almost exactly what you say cannot now be done?

 

If people in the territory of Ukraine wanted to live in Russia, they had every opportunity to cross the border and live the life of their dreams. If Putin wanted so much for them to become Russian, he could have facilitated that for them. He is on a land grab. He believes that Ukraine in its entirety belongs to Russia. He longs for the return of the failed union and he will not stop until he either achieves it or he is dead (mostly my opinion of course).

 

The majority of your ~100 or so posts are on threads related to Putin and it's pretty clear that you support him and/or his actions, so I guess there is little value in any kind of debate.

[VBer]

10 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Weren't those lives broken in 2014?

Yes, that was very wrong to do. Many families broken, some people had to leave their places. That was very wrong idea of Putin. Making it to happen again will just repeat his actions, with much more worse consequences. Or as the crime was made once, it its legal to repeat it again?

 

10 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

The majority of your ~100 or so posts are on threads related to Putin and it's pretty clear that you support him and/or his actions, so I guess there is little value in any kind of debate.

As I told earlier, then have nothing to say about topic, attack your opponent personally.

[Woof999]

20 minutes ago, VBer said:

Yes, that was very wrong to do. Many families broken, some people had to leave their places. That was very wrong idea of Putin. Making it to happen again will just repeat his actions, with much more worse consequences. Or as the crime was made once, it its legal to repeat it again?

 

Ukraine reclaiming significant territory that is rightfully theirs in not illegal. It is both legal and moral.

 

After Crimea, Donbas and every other territory that has been illegally annexed is returned, Ukraine could facilitate anyone who wants to become Russian to have their wish. Easy, no. Impossible, absolutely not. Those that don't want to be Ukrainian simply don't need to live in Ukraine. Simples. The ONLY reason that Putin cannot agree to that is because it would finish him as a "leader".

 

20 minutes ago, VBer said:

As I told earlier, then have nothing to say about topic, attack your opponent personally.

 

Where was the personal attack? I didn't insult you. I didn't directly call you a Putin apologist, although the implication is there I guess. I pointed out that every response that I've seen from you on any topic to do with Putin is sympathetic to Putin. Your justification in this thread for doing so is to "think of the people", while clinging to a false absolute position that it would be impossible to do anything other than let Putin have his way.

 

There is one person alone that you should be directing that comment ("think of the people") to and he does not visit this thread.

Edited June 16 by Woof999

[VBer]

12 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

After Crimea, Donbas and every other territory that has been illegally annexed is returned, Ukraine could facilitate anyone who wants to become Russian to have their wish. Easy, no. Impossible, absolutely not. Those that don't want to be Ukrainian simply don't need to live in Ukraine. Simples. The ONLY reason that Putin cannot agree to that is because it would finish him as a "leader".

Well, your words have changed my mind. Doing this might be a better idea than keep the Crimea by any cost. More lives saving for sure. But no way Putin will go for that. His decisions already lead to deaths of thousands of humans and now there is no way back in his head than ever. Also will be hard to explain to Crimean people why they have to move from the place where they born, where the graves of their parents and so. This will be painful, but look like least harmless way.

[rabas]

1 hour ago, VBer said:

The difference between us is that you are talking about land while I'm talking about people.

As for the land, there is no technical problem to give it back to Ukraine.

As for people, this just impossible. 

How about asking Crimean people, are they want to be part of Ukraine again? The result will be devastating. Or you willing to do so anyway and not care at all how many lives will be broken?

 

Yes, lets ask Crimean people.  A real Crimean, an original Crimean Tartar who is now Ukrainian. Emine Aiiarovna Dzhaparova is the mother of two young children. She was also Ukraine's deputy minister of foreign affairs.

 

In this 24 minute TED talk, she will tell you, as a mother, of all the unspeakable horrors that Russia has brought upon Crimea since the time of Joseph Stalin. Hint, it's bad.

 

The war-torn history of Crimea—my home | Emine Dzhaparova | TEDxAthens

 

Edited June 16 by rabas

[Woof999]

10 minutes ago, VBer said:

Well, your words have changed my mind. Doing this might be a better idea than keep the Crimea by any cost. More lives saving for sure. But no way Putin will go for that. His decisions already lead to deaths of thousands of humans and now there is no way back in his head than ever. Also will be hard to explain to Crimean people why they have to move from the place where they born, where the graves of their parents and so. This will be painful, but look like least harmless way.

 

Actually I'm more sympathetic to Crimea than I am to the other annexed territories. As I'm sure you know better than me, Crimea was "Russian" from the 18th century and was ceded to Ukraine when both Russia and Ukraine were part of the union. Even before 2014, the majority of people there were still more Russian than Ukrainian, although they didn't necessarily want to join Russia so much as to have more devolved power of their own. However, Putin was so confident that the wider areas of eastern Ukraine (such as Kharkiv) dreamed of integrating with Russia that I'm sure that the defence they put up against his invasion gave him at least a bit of a wakeup call.

 

To end, I think that defeating Putin now and reclaiming ALL the territories will displace less people in the long run, at a cost to a smaller group of people in the short term. If he succeeds in keeping the areas already occupied, I don't think that there are too many people who would believe he will be content to not do exactly the same again, over and over.

[kwonitoy]

4 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

If you are already doing this then please ignore. But if you're not and you are blowharding for more war then could I suggest putting your money where your mouths and keyboards are.

 

https://www.usubc.org/site/recent-news/war-bonds--invest-to-support-ukraine

 

 

 

You mean like these war bonds in support of Ukraine, from Canada.

Took my full allotment last fall

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/financial-sector-policy/ukraine-sovereignty-bond.html

 

[Woof999]

2 minutes ago, kwonitoy said:

You mean like these war bonds in support of Ukraine, from Canada.

Took my full allotment last fall

 

Respect

[beautifulthailand99]

35 minutes ago, kwonitoy said:

 

You mean like these war bonds in support of Ukraine, from Canada.

Took my full allotment last fall

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/financial-sector-policy/ukraine-sovereignty-bond.html

 

Firstly massive respect. I mean it, you are backing your moral universe with your own money - putting your money where your mouth is.

 

Can you make money ?

 

Canadians who participate in the Ukraine Sovereignty Bond are, in effect, purchasing a regular five-year Government of Canada bond at a 3.245 per cent rate of return

 

So basically AAA rated back by the Canadian goverment and a five year fix at that. If interest rates go down then it's a surefire winner as you lock in that rate - but I'm getting 5.25 to 6.0% on various fixes in the UK so that's a  2 -2.5% premium to support Ukraine over a market rate. If you could hedge that with a short on the Ruble the you could probably make up the difference. That said I'm long on physical gold have been since the invasion as I'm a doomster in temperament.Things can always get worse and that's the way the wind is blowing sadly.

Edited June 16 by beautifulthailand99

[kwonitoy]

13 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Respect - I really mean it - not just words. I shall read your posts through that lends as well. Can you make money ?

How the Ukraine Sovereignty Bond will work

Canadians who participate in the Ukraine Sovereignty Bond are, in effect, purchasing a regular five-year Government of Canada bond at a 3.245 per cent rate of return. To provide investors with confidence about the safety of their funds, the Ukraine Sovereignty Bond is likewise backed by Canada’s AAA credit rating.

The bond will pay interest twice per year, on February 24 and August 24, until the bond matures in 2027. For example, a $1,000 investment at a yield of 3.245 per cent should expect to receive $16.23 every February and August through 2027.

The bond will mature on August 24, 2027, Ukrainian Independence Day, at which time bondholders will receive the full repayment of their initial investment.

 

There is a return on it, much like Canada Savings Bonds that I grew up with. Not the most astute investment but there is a return on the money, the right thing for me to do as a Ukrainian descended Canadian with the financial means. They sold out very quickly.

 

Edited June 16 by kwonitoy

[beautifulthailand99]

3 minutes ago, kwonitoy said:

How the Ukraine Sovereignty Bond will work

Canadians who participate in the Ukraine Sovereignty Bond are, in effect, purchasing a regular five-year Government of Canada bond at a 3.245 per cent rate of return. To provide investors with confidence about the safety of their funds, the Ukraine Sovereignty Bond is likewise backed by Canada’s AAA credit rating.

The bond will pay interest twice per year, on February 24 and August 24, until the bond matures in 2027. For example, a $1,000 investment at a yield of 3.245 per cent should expect to receive $16.23 every February and August through 2027.

The bond will mature on August 24, 2027, Ukrainian Independence Day, at which time bondholders will receive the full repayment of their initial investment.

 

There is a return on it, much like Canada Savings Bonds that I grew up with. Not the most astute investment but there is a return on the money, the right thing for me to do as a Ukrainian descended Canadian with the financial means. They sold out very quickly.

 

Oh yes, Canada I am reminded of a notorious Canadian incident when Zelenskiy visited. The "difficult" Banderite connections who before Zelenskiy's heroic stance was the most famous Ukrainian nationalist. 

[kwonitoy]

1 hour ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Oh yes, Canada I am reminded of a notorious Canadian incident when Zelenskiy visited. The "difficult" Banderite connections who before Zelenskiy's heroic stance was the most famous Ukrainian nationalist. 

 

Ahh yes the "Gotcha" post

The government of Canada jumped on a bandwagon, as politicians do and invited this guy without doing any vetting or background checks.

 

I didn't vote for our current government don't agree with them on most of their policies

I didn't invite the man to Parliament.

Ancient history

[beautifulthailand99]

21 minutes ago, kwonitoy said:

 

Ahh yes the "Gotcha" post

The government of Canada jumped on a bandwagon, as politicians do and invited this guy without doing any vetting or background checks.

 

I didn't vote for our current government don't agree with them on most of their policies

I didn't invite the man to Parliament.

Ancient history

The problem isn't necesarily the ex SS guy - yes that was a problem that should have been vetted out by those civil servants around the visit. The more problematic issue, which you may have some knowledge of, is that of Ukrainian nationalist history is often seen through the lens of an anti-Soviet "my enemies enemy is my friend". It would be helpful if all Ukrainians were to unequivocally condemn that part of their heritage ,but many won't and therein lies a problem of optics and perception.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66914756