Help needed for best way to sell my house in the UK

[Keith5588]

 

I am a 71 year old UK citizen. 7 years ago I signed for a letting agency to manage the renting out of my house and I came to Thailand. I love living in Thailand and now know that I wish to stay living in Thailand but I have to return to the UK to sort out some financial matters and to sell my house.

It has worked out quite well having my house rented out but recently there have been problems and so I have just instructed the letting agency to give the tenants notice to leave.

So in about 3 months from now the plan is I will be back in the UK living at my house and wanting to sell it.

 

I bought my house in 1980 and always lived in it except for the past 7 years. It is my only home, but as I have rented it out for the last 7 years I might have to pay some capital gains tax, another thing I am not sure about.

 

In 1980 if I remember correctly you had a choice of using only one estate agent, that is sole agency, and they would then charge you about 1% of the selling price. If you put your house for sale with several estate agents then you would pay about 2% of the selling price.

 

I imagine things have now changed, selling your house yourself on the internet for instance? So much I do not know. I will start to investigate and post if I find anything interesting but I would love some advice from people on here.

 

Thank you in advance

Keith  

[DaLa]

I am pretty certain that if the property you own in the UK is your sole property then it is exempt from CGT. My advice on sole agency is to find the agent that has the most penetration in the price and area of your property rather than multiple agents. There has been an increase in internet agents and I would expect that in todays market a good number of people wishing to buy a property are searching on-line.  Good luck, I hope you sell quickly and can enjoy your permanent stay here.

Edited June 15 by DaLa
Spelling

[sometime]

Don't burn your bridges, where are you going to put the money from the sale of your house, cant have it sent to Thailand Because of the new tax.

I would find another letting agent.

[Celsius]

Looks messy. You should ask your accountant. If you were a nom resident in UK while renting out your property which tax rates were you paying? 7 years is a long time.

 

You need an accountant.

 

 

[DaLa]

18 minutes ago, sometime said:

Don't burn your bridges, where are you going to put the money from the sale of your house, cant have it sent to Thailand Because of the new tax.

I would find another letting agent.

I was advised not to 'burn my bridges' when I moved here 12 years ago. Whist I understand that may be prudent if Keith has family back in the UK , if he's childless as I was then what could happen is that his estate passes to the crown.  I invested in my wife's business and even though the money is no longer 'mine' I have had the pleasure of seeing her prosper due to my help. The new tax law proposed for Thailand is still not certain so I don't see that as a problem, Keith can retain his cash in the UK and work around whatever rules come into place later. Letting out in the UK can be a pain and to manage that from Thailand can mean most of your income is lost to agents. 

 

At the end of the day neither of us know what Keith's lifestyle/wishes/plans are, and that will influence greatly his financial decisions.

Edited June 15 by DaLa
spelling

[Keith5588]

Thank you all for your helpful replies.

@DaLa Good advice about choosing an agent. Can I ask, do you know of an easy way to find the agent that has the most penetration in the price and area of my property? I have looked on Rightmove recently, would it be down to me to filter so that I see only houses similar to my house in the same area then for me to note down which agents added the house to Rightmove?

Concerning whether it would be best to sell my house or to continue to rent it out.

At age 21 I was engaged to be married, I was lucky that it did not happen, long story. I had relationships but never married, I have no children, my parents are both deceased, my one brother died in a tragic accident. So I am similar to @DaLa in that I have no children. I also have no immediate family. I have been with my Thai girlfriend 24/7 for 7 years and we get along very well.

I have thought about continuing to rent out my house but I am now 71 years of age and the older I become the less I would want the aggravation involved in selling a house. So I am leaning towards selling it now, if I just leave it and I die before my Thai girlfriend then it will be much more difficult for her.

I am renting a house in Hua Hin Thailand, but I am now also considering buying a house as long as I am able to rent it first for a period of time. I would have my gf buy the land and also a Usufruct contract to give me some protection, but I do fully trust her. Sorry I am going off topic.

Thanks @DaLa  for your other comments about the Thai tax changes etc. At the moment we do not fully know and there is a lot of scare mongering. I pay any UK taxes that are due and the UK has a double tax agreement with Thailand. As a thought how would Thai tax authorities get involved with me transferring money to my gf’s Thai bank account?

[DaLa]

4 hours ago, Keith5588 said:

Thank you all for your helpful replies.

@DaLa Good advice about choosing an agent. Can I ask, do you know of an easy way to find the agent that has the most penetration in the price and area of my property? I have looked on Rightmove recently, would it be down to me to filter so that I see only houses similar to my house in the same area then for me to note down which agents added the house to Rightmove?

Concerning whether it would be best to sell my house or to continue to rent it out.

At age 21 I was engaged to be married, I was lucky that it did not happen, long story. I had relationships but never married, I have no children, my parents are both deceased, my one brother died in a tragic accident. So I am similar to @DaLa in that I have no children. I also have no immediate family. I have been with my Thai girlfriend 24/7 for 7 years and we get along very well.

I have thought about continuing to rent out my house but I am now 71 years of age and the older I become the less I would want the aggravation involved in selling a house. So I am leaning towards selling it now, if I just leave it and I die before my Thai girlfriend then it will be much more difficult for her.

I am renting a house in Hua Hin Thailand, but I am now also considering buying a house as long as I am able to rent it first for a period of time. I would have my gf buy the land and also a Usufruct contract to give me some protection, but I do fully trust her. Sorry I am going off topic.

Thanks @DaLa  for your other comments about the Thai tax changes etc. At the moment we do not fully know and there is a lot of scare mongering. I pay any UK taxes that are due and the UK has a double tax agreement with Thailand. As a thought how would Thai tax authorities get involved with me transferring money to my gf’s Thai bank account?

Choose an agent that has the most properties in your area and price range similar to your property by entering that information into a search. No children = no brainer. I've invested a good amount into my wife's business and property , but what else would I have done with the money, and you are correct about not wanting your lady friend to deal with the sale in the future.

 

If the 'planned' tax change is that onerous there will be enough information on this site to ensure the impact is minimised, either that or there won't be any of us left here. Transfers to you lady friends account seems a good plan and one I would consider, but also I presently pay for many items here by using my UK based cards so I would just say it is savings and not income...how would they know?

 

Buying a property can be quite an invigorating experience at our age , keeps the grey matter ticking over and is a worthwhile legacy,  I don't feel as if I'm imposing to say I believe your plans  have a great deal of merit in your circumstances.  Good luck with it all.

[Keith5588]

Thanks for the good advice @DaLa.  You seem to have thought things through as I hope I have.

 

A good comment about how would Thailand know if the money comes from savings or income? When I make a transfer I don’t even know if it comes from my base savings or from interest earned on the savings. Unless of course it is a pension direct transfer to a Thai bank, then just possibly they may know, but I don’t think they would have any authority to obtain any of your UK financial details. I think in the end the way Thailand will enforce the tax will be much simpler than a lot think at the moment. I also believe the tax change is not being done to tax farang, it’s mainly being done to close a loophole that very wealthy Thai people were using to avoid paying any tax. Again off topic so I will not write too much.

 

Yes if I buy a house in Thailand it would be a nice thought that it would eventually benefit my Thai gf’s children. I do think about such things and have already written my Wills.

 

I’m pleased that your wife’s business and property are doing well. Good luck to you too.

[stoner]

8 hours ago, Keith5588 said:

So I am similar to @DaLa in that I have no children. I also have no immediate family. I have been with my Thai girlfriend 24/7 for 7 years and we get along very well.

 

i am more than willing to be adopted. 

 

if you are making some money off renting your house i would still do it. the cost of rent in the west is very high and if heaven forbid you had to go home for any reason you would at least have that security.it worries me a little as i will never be able to afford a house in canada ever again. sold mine a few years ago. 

[Polar Bear]

Going only on the details you have given, it's unlikely you will have to pay any CGT. You get Private Residence Relief for the time you lived there, plus additional months at the end. (The gain is calculated monthly). Then there's the £3,000 CGT allowance. There are also various things you can offset against the chargeable gain. There are also different valuations you can use. However, you do have to declare it even if the eventual charge is £0.

 

More importantly, you have to make the declaration, submit your CGT estimate, and pay it (if anything is owed) within 60 days of completing. (The completion date of the sale is Day 1). You can do it all yourself and submit it online if you are comfortable with that. (I let my accountant deal with it.) HMRC doesn't mess about with this, so make sure you get it done on time.  

With regard to agents, it very much depends on the area, but having bought a couple of UK properties recently, I would say go with a long-standing local agent. When you call them to discuss it, make a note of how easy or difficult it was to get hold of them, whether they called back when they said they would, etc. In general, they are more responsive to sellers than buyers, so if you feel they are leaving you hanging, they will likely do worse to interested buyers. The online agencies were a nightmare to deal with. If your buyers can't arrange a viewing or get the information they need because no one ever replies, it may well cost you the sale. They are cheap for a reason.

 

I don't think there is much to be gained from having multiple agents anymore. If the listing is going on RightMove, people will see it. It was different when you had to go round estate agents in person and see what each one had available. But you can negotiate sole agency for a short period (say 6 months), giving you the option to switch if they haven't found you a buyer by then. 

Finally, there is, unfortunately, a somewhat common scam. An estate agent takes a property on, it hardly gets any viewings and no offers or stupidly low offers. This goes on for a while. Then they say they know a cash buyer/investor who might be willing to buy it. No promises, but they can ask for you! As luck would have it, the 'investor' just happens to be in a position to buy immediately for a low price. Of course, they are all in on it and share the profit. If you feel like you are being pushed into something like that, it's almost impossible to prove, just switch agents. 

Good luck!

[Keith5588]

9 hours ago, stoner said:

 

i am more than willing to be adopted. 

 

if you are making some money off renting your house i would still do it. the cost of rent in the west is very high and if heaven forbid you had to go home for any reason you would at least have that security.it worries me a little as i will never be able to afford a house in canada ever again. sold mine a few years ago. 

@stoner  Thank you for your comments. I have thought about keeping my house but at age 71 I now think it best to sell. I don’t know your age. I am not wealthy but I have not needed to start my state pension, I have full contributions and I intentionally deferred it. I’m glad I did as I have locked in the last 2 large increases plus the deferral increases. I have already tidied up most of my finances. If I sell my house then my finances will be very simple and accessed online. So totally relax in Thailand knowing that everything has been simplified will be better for me. If I did need to return to the UK then I am lucky and could afford to rent a small place. If I ever needed a care home then my house would be a complication. And Hey I have seen Youtubes of fantastic care homes in Thailand for about half the UK cost.

[Keith5588]

9 hours ago, Polar Bear said:

Going only on the details you have given, it's unlikely you will have to pay any CGT. You get Private Residence Relief for the time you lived there, plus additional months at the end. (The gain is calculated monthly). Then there's the £3,000 CGT allowance. There are also various things you can offset against the chargeable gain. There are also different valuations you can use. However, you do have to declare it even if the eventual charge is £0.

 

More importantly, you have to make the declaration, submit your CGT estimate, and pay it (if anything is owed) within 60 days of completing. (The completion date of the sale is Day 1). You can do it all yourself and submit it online if you are comfortable with that. (I let my accountant deal with it.) HMRC doesn't mess about with this, so make sure you get it done on time.  

With regard to agents, it very much depends on the area, but having bought a couple of UK properties recently, I would say go with a long-standing local agent. When you call them to discuss it, make a note of how easy or difficult it was to get hold of them, whether they called back when they said they would, etc. In general, they are more responsive to sellers than buyers, so if you feel they are leaving you hanging, they will likely do worse to interested buyers. The online agencies were a nightmare to deal with. If your buyers can't arrange a viewing or get the information they need because no one ever replies, it may well cost you the sale. They are cheap for a reason.

 

I don't think there is much to be gained from having multiple agents anymore. If the listing is going on RightMove, people will see it. It was different when you had to go round estate agents in person and see what each one had available. But you can negotiate sole agency for a short period (say 6 months), giving you the option to switch if they haven't found you a buyer by then. 

Finally, there is, unfortunately, a somewhat common scam. An estate agent takes a property on, it hardly gets any viewings and no offers or stupidly low offers. This goes on for a while. Then they say they know a cash buyer/investor who might be willing to buy it. No promises, but they can ask for you! As luck would have it, the 'investor' just happens to be in a position to buy immediately for a low price. Of course, they are all in on it and share the profit. If you feel like you are being pushed into something like that, it's almost impossible to prove, just switch agents. 

Good luck!

@Polar Bear  Thank you so much for the very informative reply. I think I have seen very good information from you before.

Thank you for the great advice on CGT. I like to do most things myself. I have never used an agent in Thailand for immigration. Also I did write my own Wills, one for Thailand and one for the UK, it was during Covid lockdown but I must admit I spent a lot of time researching. But as I become older I am not so sharp and it seems more like an effort than a challenge. So this time I might look for help from an accountant, hopefully find one that has also delt with British citizens living outside the UK..

 

Also you give very good advice concerning estate agents. I hadn’t even thought of the now obvious fact (after you wrote it) that almost all buyers will look on RightMove and so no need to have multiple agents.

Also very good advice about negotiating a sole agency for a limited period of 6 months. That would also give them the incentive to put effort in early to sell it quickly.

 

Thanks also for the information about the scam. My house is in Norwich and if I pick an established local agent it is probably less likely to happen than in some other areas. But having said that things have changed a lot in the UK and I might be thinking of the past. So thanks for making me aware. I was raised in a small UK town and I am still finding it hard to understand that there are people who have no problem lying to scam others, they must have no morals.

 

Thanks again for the very detailed message

[stoner]

7 minutes ago, Keith5588 said:

And Hey I have seen Youtubes of fantastic care homes in Thailand for about half the UK cost.

 

im 47. you could hire me as your full time nanny. 

 

renting long term in thailand is not a big deal. you could hire full time staff to take care of you better than a care facility i think. 

 

good luck. i have a ways to go. 

[georgegeorgia]

How do you get the old age pension if you have rental income?

 

I know your in the UK so it's not means tested ? Anyone can get the pension there ?? 

 

[Keith5588]

5 hours ago, georgegeorgia said:

How do you get the old age pension if you have rental income?

 

I know your in the UK so it's not means tested ? Anyone can get the pension there ?? 

 

After you start your UK state pension if you then live in Thailand it will be frozen at the start amount. There are many discussions about this, some do not inform them they live in Thailand, a personal choice.

[Polar Bear]

6 hours ago, georgegeorgia said:

How do you get the old age pension if you have rental income?

 

I know your in the UK so it's not means tested ? Anyone can get the pension there ?? 

 

 

The state pension is not a benefit. It's a contribution-based allowance that we specifically pay into. National Insurance payments are deducted from our salaries automatically. The rate is currently about 13% (If you are self-employed, overseas, etc., there are options to pay voluntarily as well). This is separate from, and in addition to, income tax. NI payments go towards specific contribution-based allowances (state pension, jobseeker's allowance, maternity allowance), but there are additional criteria sometimes, e.g., voluntary payments don't qualify you for job seeker's allowance. So it's more like a mandatory investment into a pension fund. 

 

Contribution-based allowances are not means-tested. If you have made enough NI contributions and you meet the criteria,  you are entitled to them. If you've paid full NI for at least 35 years, you are entitled to the state pension. If you don't have 35 full years, you get a pro-rata payment for what you did pay.

There are other means-tested benefits available to pensioners, but the state pension is different. 

[Polar Bear]

@Keith5588, you're welcome. I am not a professional by any means, but I know my way around the current UK housing market pretty well, so if there's anything I can help with, please just ask. 

 

I also do most of my admin myself, but I have given up with our UK taxes. It's got so complicated now, and HMRC is brutal, even over small genuine errors. It feels more and more like they are trying to catch people out so they can fine you, rather than helping you work out what's due to be paid in the first place. 

With regard to scams, it tends to be individual agents who've gone rogue. Working with a well-known local firm is your best protection. 

[OnTheLash]

Its easy for you to sell a property without you being there. I have bought and sold from Thailand. I am in the process of selling a property that I bought during Covid and I have never even seen it. 

You will be liable for CGT.

Consider a Vanguard or Fidelity fund and DCA in (DYOR). Maybe consider buying a small studio as a place to return to if things don't work out.

I am slowly getting out of UK property. Too much hassle and when labour gets in it will get only get worse for landlords.

If you are creative you will be able to bring the money to Thailand without paying Thai tax.

Good luck!

[OJAS]

On 6/15/2024 at 10:19 AM, DaLa said:

I am pretty certain that if the property you own in the UK is your sole property then it is exempt from CGT.

 

On 6/15/2024 at 11:00 PM, Polar Bear said:

Going only on the details you have given, it's unlikely you will have to pay any CGT.

 

Incorrect. When in late 2021 I sold my UK property which I had purchased in 1999, I had to pay CGT calculated on the basis of the gain which I had made on it since 5 April 2015:

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/capital-gains-tax-for-non-residents-calculating-taxable-gain-or-loss#rebasing-from-2015

 

Edited July 11 by OJAS

[OJAS]

On 7/2/2024 at 9:44 PM, OnTheLash said:

You will be liable for CGT.

 

Indeed he will!

 

[Polar Bear]

3 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

 

Incorrect. When in late 2021 I sold my UK property which I had purchased in 1999, I had to pay CGT calculated on the basis of the gain which I had made on it since 5 April 2015:

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/capital-gains-tax-for-non-residents-calculating-taxable-gain-or-loss#rebasing-from-2015

 

 

Keith has owned his house since 1980, so he has various options for the valuation date, and he lived in it as his primary residence for most of that time. So, while the sale is definitely liable for CGT, by the time he's included all the relief and exemptions he's entitled to, the final liability is likely to be zero or close to zero.

Though as I said, that is an estimate based on the information given. An accountant who specialises in these transactions would help him claim everything he is entitled to to minimise tax.

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, Polar Bear said:

 

Keith has owned his house since 1980, so he has various options for the valuation date, and he lived in it as his primary residence for most of that time. So, while the sale is definitely liable for CGT, by the time he's included all the relief and exemptions he's entitled to, the final liability is likely to be zero or close to zero.

Though as I said, that is an estimate based on the information given. An accountant who specialises in these transactions would help him claim everything he is entitled to to minimise tax.

 

Maybe his best course of action would be to run the GOV.UK calculator once he has established what his gain on the property amounts to:

 

https://www.gov.uk/tax-sell-property/work-out-your-gain

 

[Polar Bear]

The calculator is a good starting point, but it only includes the most basic reliefs.

[still kicking]

On 6/15/2024 at 11:44 PM, stoner said:

 

i am more than willing to be adopted. 

 

if you are making some money off renting your house i would still do it. the cost of rent in the west is very high and if heaven forbid you had to go home for any reason you would at least have that security.it worries me a little as i will never be able to afford a house in canada ever again. sold mine a few years ago. 

Everybody says the cost of living is high in western countries I don't agree at all it all depends what city you live in. I live in OZ WA and have not have an increase in my rent payments for about 8 years Yes, I do know living in Sydney or Melbourne is very expensive (don't know about other countries) Yes, I admit the cost of living is high, but it is everywhere not only in the west. 

[stoner]

6 hours ago, still kicking said:

Everybody says the cost of living is high in western countries I don't agree at all it all depends what city you live in. I live in OZ WA and have not have an increase in my rent payments for about 8 years Yes, I do know living in Sydney or Melbourne is very expensive (don't know about other countries) Yes, I admit the cost of living is high, but it is everywhere not only in the west. 

 

your cost of living is not reflective of reality with that kind of rent payment though.

 

cost of living in thailand is far cheaper than canada now. housing alone is brutal. in my city here in canada we are around 80k people and the average price for a house is near 700 or 800k cad. 

 

rent for a 1 bedroom dirthole is about 1700 to 2k. 

 

my 3 bedroom house in phuket is 500cad a month. a 3 bedroom house in my city here goes for around 3 or 4k a month. so about 75 to 100k baht a month compared to 15k or so baht a month. 

[sometimewoodworker]

@Keith5588 you should very seriously try not to live in Thailand more than 179 day during the calendar year you sell your house. 
This is because you WILL be liable to pay a few million Baht on the money remitted to Thailand whenever it is remitted.

 

If you wish to reduce your tax liability to zero then not being tax resident in the year you sell the U.K. property means your sale proceeds are never taxable in Thailand 

 

If however you are tax resident in the year your house sells you should ask a Thai tax accountant to help reduce your tax liability. 
 

I’m sure that you can find pleasant places for you and your GF to spend about 27 weeks in total for a year without spending a ridiculous amount of the saved tax

[Keith5588]

@sometimewoodworker Thank's I will try to be careful concerning the possible Thai tax.  At the moment I'm not sure if anyone fully knows the details, I certainly don't.

If I sell my house next year as planned would I be right in thinking that if I did live in Thailand for more than 180 days during next year I would not pay any tax on the money from the sale of my house if I kept the money in the UK?

I'm thinking this because I believe that Thailand do not plan to assess worldwide income for tax but only assess money for tax that is transferred into Thailand?

Up until now I have only rented in Thailand but may consider buying after I sell my house and tidy up other financial matters. So I would then wish to transfer a large sum into my Thai bank account, let's say I do that in year 2027. 

So would I need to spend 179 days or less in Thailand during 2025 or 2027.

At the moment I admit I do not understand, concerning the money I transfer in, it would be from my UK bank savings of which I have some savings I have built up over a long time and some will be from the sale of my house. How does anyone determine where the transferred money originated from?

I hope you are enjoying life up in Isaan  

[Keith5588]

On 7/11/2024 at 6:10 PM, Polar Bear said:

 

Keith has owned his house since 1980, so he has various options for the valuation date, and he lived in it as his primary residence for most of that time. So, while the sale is definitely liable for CGT, by the time he's included all the relief and exemptions he's entitled to, the final liability is likely to be zero or close to zero.

Though as I said, that is an estimate based on the information given. An accountant who specialises in these transactions would help him claim everything he is entitled to to minimise tax.

@Polar Bear Thank you for your advise. Sorry for the delay in me replying, it was mainly due to my Acer laptop going faulty and I had to buy a similar 14" Windows 11 laptop. This time I bought a Dell and I am very happy with it. Concerning CGT, you are correct I lived in my house since I bought it in 1980 up until coming to Thailand in 2017. So as you have written I think my CGT will not be large but I do now plan to look for an accountant to help.

Thanks again 

Keith

[orang37]

Since you’re planning to return to the UK soon, it’s wise to take some time to understand the current real estate market and potential tax implications, especially regarding capital gains tax. For the most up-to-date information, consulting with a local property expert or estate agent could be very helpful. They can guide you on current practices, such as the benefits of using online platforms to list your property, and clarify the latest fee structures.

I recently faced a similar situation and found a company that really made the process smoother for me. They helped me not only with selling my property but also provided valuable advice on how to handle the capital gains tax issue. They offer a comprehensive service that includes evaluating your home, managing the sale process, and connecting you with tax professionals if needed. I highly recommend checking them out, as they might offer solutions that align well with your current needs. You can find more details there.

Edited August 21 by orang37