Oklahoma Mandates Bible Teaching in Public Schools

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55 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I will carry on to, I posted an article that mentions a study (among other examples that it links to), you are claiming it uses leading questions for that study but you don't have a list of all the questions. 

As I have pointed out repeatedly, the authors of the study specifically said that their 6 basic questions all asked them specifically if their schools or adults at their schools had taught them in class or heard about it from an adult associated with the school. I don't have to see the specific questions given that they have acknowledged including those mentions in their questions. Are you claiming that the people behind this survey are lying or mistaken about the content of their questions? Clearly, your disagreement on this specific point is as much with them  as it is with me. More ridiculousness from you.

[Bkk Brian]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

As I have pointed out repeatedly, the authors of the study specifically said that their 6 basic questions all asked them specifically if their schools or adults at their schools had taught them in class or heard about it from an adult associated with the school. I don't have to see the specific questions given that they have acknowledged including those mentions in their questions. Are you claiming that the people behind this survey are lying or mistaken about the content of their questions? Clearly, your disagreement on this specific point is as much with them  as it is with me. More ridiculousness from you.

You can point out all you want, but you do not have evidence of the questions list that you claim are leading questions and as you can read I have already quoted one which is not leading. 

Edited July 1 by Bkk Brian

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4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You can point out all you want, but you do not have evidence of the questions list that you claim are leading questions and as you can read I have already quoted one which is not leading. 

Take it up with the people behind the survey.  Their words back my point.  And you consistently fail to engage with another point that a question that is based on the results of a leading question, will have answers that are useless. Who cares if it's leading or not? It would still be useless.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

Take it up with the people behind the survey.  Their words back my point.  And you consistently fail to engage with another point that a question that is based on the results of a leading question, will have answers that are useless. Who cares if it's leading or not? It would still be useless.

No thanks, you are making the claim not me and there is nothing in their description that claims they are using leading questions. 

 

Just you.

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Just now, Bkk Brian said:

No thanks, you are making the claim not me and there is nothing in their description that claims they are using leading questions. 

 

Just you.

Of course there is evidence. The fact that they specifically mention only school or adults at the school as the source of information in the 6 basic questions makes  them leading question. It's obvious that to get an unbiased response, an open-ended question is best. Next best, multiple choice. Useless: mentioning a potential answer in the question.. And given the extreme ideological bent of this organization - it also publishes articles challenging the scientific basis of global warming - only adds further weight to the case.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

Of course there is evidence. The fact that they specifically mention only school or adults at the school as the source of information in the 6 basic questions makes  them leading question. It's obvious that to get an unbiased response, an open-ended question is best. Next best, multiple choice. Useless: mentioning a potential answer in the question.. And given the extreme ideological bent of this organization - it also publishes articles challenging the scientific basis of global warming - only adds further weight to the case.

You have not seen a list of the questions, you have no evidence....lol.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You have not seen a list of the questions, you have no evidence....lol.

 

 

 

Apart from the words of the authors of the piece. I mean, what do they know?

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

Apart from the words of the authors of the piece. I mean, what do they know?

The words from the article do not claim the study uses leading questions either.....................

[placeholder]

15 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The words from the article do not claim the study uses leading questions either.....................

It doesn't matter what they call them. Given that the questions direct attention towards one possible answer but not to others makes them leading questions. Did you miss the part where I pointed out that The City Journal is an a very right wing organization? That they might just possibly have an agenda?

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

It doesn't matter what they call them. Given that the questions direct attention towards one possible answer but not to others makes them leading questions. Did you miss the part where I pointed out that The City Journal is an a very right wing organization? That they might just possibly have an agenda?

Of course it matters, this is not a leading question, they are not claiming they are either, only you.

 

"Specifically, we asked those who reported being taught at least one of the listed concepts in a high school class what, if anything, they were taught about arguments opposing them."

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What don't you understand about the fact that a follow-up question based on a possible falsehood elicited by a leading question is valueless? Whether the follow-up question is leading or not doesn't matter. It's based on unsound evidence.

And what makes your use of this study truly bizarre is that there's no evidence that this study was peer reviewed. They authors said they commissioned a study.  No further information on who or how. And only a little bit of what. Given their acknowledgement that the questions explicitly mentioned only schools and adults affiliated with schools as a possible source of of information to those questioned it would be astonishing if they were peer reviewed in a reputable journal. City Journal is a highly biased right wing magazine and anyone presuming the bona fides of a "study" sponsored by it, is making a huge and tendentious assumption.

Edited July 1 by placeholder

[Bkk Brian]

21 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What don't you understand about the fact that a follow-up question based on a possible falsehood elicited by a leading question is valueless? Whether the follow-up question is leading or not doesn't matter. It's based on unsound evidence.

And what makes your use of this study truly bizarre is that there's no evidence that this study was peer reviewed. They authors said they commissioned a study.  No further information on who or how. And only a little bit of what. Given their acknowledgement that the questions explicitly mentioned only schools and adults affiliated with schools as a possible source of of information to those questioned it would be astonishing if they were peer reviewed in a reputable journal. City Journal is a highly biased right wing magazine and anyone presuming the bona fides of a "study" sponsored by it, is making a huge and tendentious assumption.

What I still understand is that you do not have a list of the questions asked yet you claim they were leading questions.

 

I also understand the few questions that have been published are not leading questions and explanations are also there for a few. In addition I also know the authors are not saying they are leading questions.

 

“Thinking about the school you attended, were you ever taught any of the following concepts in class or did you hear them from adults in the school you attended?”

 Those who didn’t report being taught any of the five CRT-related concepts serve as the reference group for tests of statistical significance.

 The “Have not been taught” group serves as the reference category for tests of statistical significance.

 

Although I now see you have reverted to whether its peer reviewed or not.....lol. Since when do surveys/studies of these types get peer reviewed? Can you show me some examples? Its not published in a scientific journal.....lol

 

 

Edited July 1 by Bkk Brian

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10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

What I still understand is that you do not have a list of the questions asked yet you claim they were leading questions.

 

I also understand the few questions that have been published are not leading questions and explanations are also there for a few. In addition I also know the authors are not saying they are leading questions.

 

“Thinking about the school you attended, were you ever taught any of the following concepts in class or did you hear them from adults in the school you attended?”

 Those who didn’t report being taught any of the five CRT-related concepts serve as the reference group for tests of statistical significance.

 The “Have not been taught” group serves as the reference category for tests of statistical significance.

 

Although I now see you have reverted to whether its peer reviewed or not.....lol. Since when do surveys/studies of these types get peer reviewed? Can you show me some examples? Its not published in a scientific journal.....lol

 

 

"Thinking about the school you attended..." that's not part of a leading question? Explicitly directing attention to a possible source does not make a question leading? Your defense of these questions is laughable.

And I guess you've never heard of educational or sociological journals that do surveys. Here's a sample.

https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/png/ajhb/2009/00000033/00000001/art00004;jsessionid=77o49g7b9utid.x-ic-live-03

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

"Thinking about the school you attended..." that's not part of a leading question? Explicitly directing attention to a possible source does not make a question leading? Your defense of these questions is laughable.

And I guess you've never heard of educational or sociological journals that do surveys. Here's a sample.

https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/png/ajhb/2009/00000033/00000001/art00004;jsessionid=77o49g7b9utid.x-ic-live-03

 

"Thinking about the school you attended..." that's not part of a leading question? Explicitly directing attention to a possible source does not make a question leading? Your defense of these questions is laughable.

 

They are assuming they've been to school, yes correct......lol

 

"1,505 18- to 20-year-old Americans—a demographic that has yet to graduate from, or only recently graduated from, high school."

 

You don't have the questions, the article gives a very small snapshot of the actual report

 

"Manhattan Institute report of all the findings from this study will be published in the coming months; what follows is a preview of some of them. Our analysis here focuses mainly on the results for the sample overall rather than for various subgroups."

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7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

"Thinking about the school you attended..." that's not part of a leading question? Explicitly directing attention to a possible source does not make a question leading? Your defense of these questions is laughable.

 

They are assuming they've been to school, yes correct......lol

 

"1,505 18- to 20-year-old Americans—a demographic that has yet to graduate from, or only recently graduated from, high school."

 

You don't have the questions, the article gives a very small snapshot of the actual report

 

"Manhattan Institute report of all the findings from this study will be published in the coming months; what follows is a preview of some of them. Our analysis here focuses mainly on the results for the sample overall rather than for various subgroups."

Just because someone has been to school, that doesn't mean school is their only, or even, their chief source of information.

Teens Spend Average of 4.8 Hours on Social Media Per Day

https://news.gallup.com/poll/512576/teens-spend-average-hours-social-media-per-day.aspx

And there is family, friends, religious institutions etc. Why single out school? Students have a life outside of school.

 

So, no, it's not about assuming those surveyed have been to school. Instead, this study directs attention to school as opposed to other possible sources. This is not neutral questioning.

 

And why should we care about a survey whose methodology is only slightly revealed. This is not a scholarly journal. And, as I pointed you to you despite this absurd scepticism of yours...

 

"Although I now see you have reverted to whether its peer reviewed or not.....lol. Since when do surveys/studies of these types get peer reviewed? Can you show me some examples? Its not published in a scientific journal.....lol"

 

...surveys do appear in scholarly journals. 

 

At least you've abandoned  calling into question the fact that surveys appear in scholarly journals. It's just that the right wing rag you pulled this information from isn't one of them

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Just because someone has been to school, that doesn't mean school is their only, or even, their chief source of information.

Teens Spend Average of 4.8 Hours on Social Media Per Day

https://news.gallup.com/poll/512576/teens-spend-average-hours-social-media-per-day.aspx

And there is family, friends, religious institutions etc. Why single out school? Students have a life outside of school.

 

So, no, it's not about assuming those surveyed have been to school. Instead, this study directs attention to school as opposed to other possible sources. This is not neutral questioning.

 

And why should we care about a survey whose methodology is only slightly revealed. This is not a scholarly journal. And, as I pointed you to you despite this absurd scepticism of yours...

 

"Although I now see you have reverted to whether its peer reviewed or not.....lol. Since when do surveys/studies of these types get peer reviewed? Can you show me some examples? Its not published in a scientific journal.....lol"

 

...surveys do appear in scholarly journals. 

 

At least you've abandoned  calling into question the fact that surveys appear in scholarly journals. It's just that the right wing rag you pulled this information from isn't one of them

Just because someone has been to school, that doesn't mean school is their only, or even, their chief source of information.

 

Deflection, nobody claimed it did and again you are speculating without even knowing the rest of the questions or reading the report study. Like I said at the beginning come back to me when you have the evidence, ie the questions. Not your opinions.

[The Old Bull]

10 hours ago, klauskunkel said:

11. Thou shalt not flip the bird to state power

One thing the commies got right "religion is the opium of the people". It's about making the poor people content with their lot so they don't go after the rich to share.

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7 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Just because someone has been to school, that doesn't mean school is their only, or even, their chief source of information.

 

Deflection, nobody claimed it did and again you are speculating without even knowing the rest of the questions or reading the report study. Like I said at the beginning come back to me when you have the evidence, ie the questions. Not your opinions.

You defended the use of the questions specifically citing schools on the grounds that the people being asked were students 

And given that the authors specifically said that the questions addressing the six basic issues all referenced schools and adults connected with them, I have all the evidence I need. Maybe you should tell them that they don't know what their questions included.

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

You defended the use of the questions specifically citing schools on the grounds that the people being asked were students 

And given that the authors specifically said that the questions addressing the six basic issues all referenced schools and adults connected with them, I have all the evidence I need. Maybe you should tell them that they don't know what their questions included.

1. Quote me where I defended the use of them being asked questions because they were students? 

2. If they were such good leading questions why when asked where they heard about the concepts did 39% reply it was not from school or from an adult at school?

3. Why were those who had replied to the negative then put in a sub set for seperate questions?

 

 1. Those who didn’t report being taught any of the five CRT-related concepts serve as the reference group for tests of statistical significance.

 2. The “Have not been taught” group serves as the reference category for tests of statistical significance.

 

Or you could just get a list of their questions to back up your claims which are that the study is based on leading questions

 

[Skipalongcassidy]

On 7/1/2024 at 4:43 AM, Tug said:

This needs to be squashed now!no indoctrinating kids on the taxpayers dime that’s a choice made by parents for their kids not by the government!

But it's ok to teach the rainbow gender hoax... right???

[Skipalongcassidy]

22 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Teaching fiction in schools. I guess it’s only to be expected considering the majority of western msm promotes fiction anyway.

Are you referring to teaching the perverted gender rainbow hoax?

[stevenl]

14 hours ago, placeholder said:

"We began by asking our 18- to 20-year-old respondents (82.4 percent of whom reported attending public schools) whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts—four of which are central to critical race theory."

 

A survey based on an blatantly flawed methodology since the questions suggest an answer. The proper questions would have been an open ended one:  Where did you learn that etc...?

 

They're supposed to have heard about these things. Wokeism, socialism and religion should be discussed in school.

This question doesn't imply it is being 'taught'.

[newnative]

Unbelievable.

[placeholder]

 

2 hours ago, stevenl said:

They're supposed to have heard about these things. Wokeism, socialism and religion should be discussed in school.

This question doesn't imply it is being 'taught'.

???

"whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts"

 

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3 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

1. Quote me where I defended the use of them being asked questions because they were students? 

2. If they were such good leading questions why when asked where they heard about the concepts did 39% reply it was not from school or from an adult at school?

3. Why were those who had replied to the negative then put in a sub set for seperate questions?

 

 1. Those who didn’t report being taught any of the five CRT-related concepts serve as the reference group for tests of statistical significance.

 2. The “Have not been taught” group serves as the reference category for tests of statistical significance.

 

Or you could just get a list of their questions to back up your claims which are that the study is based on leading questions

 

So why did you write 

"They are assuming they've been to school, yes correct......lol"

It's safe to assume most Americans have been to school. Why direct attention to it in a question? Why is that necessary or advisable to determine where their information came from?

 

As for your 39% comment, another ridiculous point. It's a leading question. They work by the power of suggestion. Only one possible answer out of many is offered in the question.  How do we know what percentage would have answered if school wasn't singled out in the question? If the question was open-ended instead?  Or even multiple choice. This comment of yours is of a piece with your apparent disbelief that scholarly journals  feature surveys.

 

I can come up with at least one reason why a politically biased survey  would ask questions of a group that answered negatively. Can you divine what that might be?

 

How does the group that answers  that it has not been taught such concepts serve as a reference if the selection was biased to begin with?

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

So why did you write 

"They are assuming they've been to school, yes correct......lol"

It's safe to assume most Americans have been to school. Why direct attention to it in a question? Why is that necessary or advisable to determine where their information came from?

 

As for your 39% comment, another ridiculous point. It's a leading question. They work by the power of suggestion. Only one possible answer out of many is offered in the question.  How do we know what percentage would have answered if school wasn't singled out in the question? If the question was open-ended instead?  Or even multiple choice. This comment of yours is of a piece with your apparent disbelief that scholarly journals  feature surveys.

 

I can come up with at least one reason why a politically biased survey  would ask questions of a group that answered negatively. Can you divine what that might be?

 

How does the group that answers  that it has not been taught such concepts serve as a reference if the selection was biased to begin with?

 

 

So why did you write 

"They are assuming they've been to school, yes correct......lol"

 

Because most adults have been to school......why did you think I laughed....lol. Very different from your claim: 

 

"You defended the use of the questions specifically citing schools on the grounds that the people being asked were students"

 

Still waiting for a list to all the questions from the study to back up your claims!

 

 

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

So why did you write 

"They are assuming they've been to school, yes correct......lol"

 

Because most adults have been to school......why did you think I laughed....lol. Very different from your claim: 

 

"You defended the use of the questions specifically citing schools on the grounds that the people being asked were students"

 

Still waiting for a list to all the questions from the study to back up your claims!

 

 

If everyone has been to school, then asking the question in a way to single out school should be unnecessary.

 

Still waiting for you to engage with this statement from the authors which 100% backs up my assertion:

"We began by asking our 18- to 20-year-old respondents (82.4 percent of whom reported attending public schools) whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts—four of which are central to critical race theory."

 

Can you  explain why this statement of theirs  doesn't back me up? So far, you've given no indication that you can. You simply ignore it.

 

What's truly bizarre about this is that when the authors make a simple matter of fact statement like the one I quoted above, you apparently don't credit it. But when they offer a survey with very little explanation of methodology, you endorse the results. Living in Oppositeworld much?

 

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

If everyone has been to school, then asking the question in a way to single out school should be unnecessary.

 

Still waiting for you to engage with this statement from the authors which 100% backs up my assertion:

"We began by asking our 18- to 20-year-old respondents (82.4 percent of whom reported attending public schools) whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts—four of which are central to critical race theory."

 

Can you  explain why this statement of theirs  doesn't back me up? So far, you've given no indication that you can. You simply ignore it.

 

What's truly bizarre about this is that when the authors make a simple matter of fact statement like the one I quoted above, you apparently don't credit it. But when they offer a survey with very little explanation of methodology, you endorse the results. Living in Oppositeworld much?

 

yawn....from the article

 

"To answer this and other related questions, we commissioned a study on a nationally representative sample of 1,505 18- to 20-year-old Americans—a demographic that has yet to graduate from, or only recently graduated from, high school"

 

Living in Oppositeworld much

No but we have obviously reached the personal insults stage from you

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

yawn....from the article

 

"To answer this and other related questions, we commissioned a study on a nationally representative sample of 1,505 18- to 20-year-old Americans—a demographic that has yet to graduate from, or only recently graduated from, high school"

 

Living in Oppositeworld much

No

As I pointed out, that's not a justification for singling out in a question one possible source of information. Quite the opposite, if a researcher truly wants to know where the information comes from.

 

And you still refuse to engage with the words of the authors of the article. Here are those words again:

"We began by asking our 18- to 20-year-old respondents (82.4 percent of whom reported attending public schools) whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts—four of which are central to critical race theory." They explicitly state that they students were asked in each of the 6 questions if they were taught such concepts in class or from an adult in school. Yet you continue to deny that it's uncertain if such was the case.

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

As I pointed out, that's not a justification for singling out in a question one possible source of information. Quite the opposite, if a researcher truly wants to know where the information comes from.

 

And you still refuse to engage with the words of the authors of the article. Here are those words again:

"We began by asking our 18- to 20-year-old respondents (82.4 percent of whom reported attending public schools) whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts—four of which are central to critical race theory." They explicitly state that they students were asked in each of the 6 questions if they were taught such concepts in class or from an adult in school. Yet you continue to deny that it's uncertain if such was the case.

 

 

Together with your last post and its personal insults we now have dishonesty. I have not refused to engage with those words, I specifically referred to how that question was answered in a post above. 39% replied it was not from school or from an adult at school.

 

Do you know all the other questions asked yet so you can get your evidence on the claims you made?