Withdraw with foreign atm or wise transfer safe 2024(tax wise)?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, anrcaccount said:

 

This opinion from one tax advisor, is , at minimum, equally as valid as the opinion of the tax partner Stat cited - Luca Bernadetti, managing partner at Mahanakorn partners, highly connected, deals with public sector government and large businesses in Thailand.

 

I would argue that the tax partner Stat cited is a more authoritative source, but that's my opinion, what makes you so certain your source is right and Stats is wrong?

 

 

 

 

Because, as discussed previously (!) the TRD officers at the Hua Hin presentation some months ago, stated that they (ATM and CC) were both considered to be assessable. That information is contained somewhere in a video that somebody posted but I can't be bothered to try and find it.....it's up to you and everyone else, what they want to believe at this point.

 

All done here.

 

 

 

 

 

[stat]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The issue is not about how they would know if he was using the card, he told us he would use it, he therefore admits to tax evasion.

Again it is not clear cut if an ATM transaction is considered a remittance. If you accuse another forum member to commit tax avoidance you are overstepping, as there are currently diverging views.

[gamb00ler]

On 7/9/2024 at 11:56 PM, shdmn said:

Somewhere somehow the Thai gov't would want proof that is not reportable income, so there will still be more of a documentation burden somehow someway.

Most modern tax regimes implement the self reporting method for some of the details about a taxpayer's income.  Thailand will probably do the same.  The TRD may choose to do a closer examination of certain tax filings based on income level, income source and other factors.  If your tax filing raises some red flags you may need to provide the detailed documentation to substantiate your self assessment.

[Mike Teavee]

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

This opinion from one tax advisor, is , at minimum, equally as valid as the opinion of the tax partner Stat cited - Luca Bernadetti, managing partner at Mahanakorn partners, highly connected, deals with public sector government and large businesses in Thailand.

 

I would argue that the tax partner Stat cited is a more authoritative source, but that's my opinion, what makes you so certain your source is right and Stats is wrong?

 

I would argue that somebody who uses the term "Repatriated" to describe foreign income being brought into Thailand by a non-Thai is a less authoritative source. 

 

verb: repatriate; 3rd person present: repatriates; past tense: repatriated; past participle: repatriated; gerund or present participle: repatriating

1. send (someone) back to their own country.

   "the United Nations hopes to repatriate all the refugees"

   • return to one's own country.

     "the majority came to America as migrant workers who intended to repatriate to Hungary"
   • send or bring (something, especially money) back to one's own country.

     "foreign firms would be permitted to repatriate all profits"

Using an ATM to take money out of your home country bank account (Or sending it over in any other way) is the opposite of Repatriating money...  It's Expatriating or remitting. 

 

 

Common sense says that taking money out of an ATM is bringing money into Thailand but as it's not explicitly stated by TRD & as the UK is the only other country I'm familiar with where people can end up being taxed on a Remittance Basis, here's what UK Gov has to say on the subject

Debit card issued by an overseas bank or other financial institution

Payments for goods or services that are made using a debit card (for example a Visa debit card or one issued under the brand name ‘Cirrus’) issued by an overseas financial institution are treated in exactly the same way as a cash transaction.

This means that when goods or services are purchased in the UK using a debit card a taxable remittance is made to the extent of the amount of any overseas income or gains in the bank account. Likewise any cash withdrawals from shops or ATM machines in the UK are taxable cash remittances.

Payment by cheque drawn on an overseas account or by electronic transfer of any kind are also treated in exactly the same way as cash and are potentially taxable remittances of overseas income and gains.

 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm33520

 

 

I honestly believe that Luca was speaking from a practical viewpoint & recognises that TRD are unable to see what withdrawals you've made from an ATM (they're not reported on CRS) however technically it is remitted income & so technically could potentially be taxable.  

 

[stat]

Fully agree" could potentially be taxable"  but far from certain as was stated before. Maybe also likely to be taxed ,but all depends on the wording in the original thai law and the implementation of the law by TRD.

 

Reading several articles TRD seems to be hellbend to increase the tax take.

 

Is a credit card a different beast then a debit card (credit involved)?

 

We will see, IMHO therefore a transaction with a credit card is "safer" then a bank transfer because a transfer seems to be 99.99% to be a remittance.

[JohnnyBD]

24 minutes ago, stat said:

Fully agree" could potentially be taxable"  but far from certain as was stated before. Maybe also likely to be taxed ,but all depends on the wording in the original thai law and the implementation of the law by TRD.

 

Reading several articles TRD seems to be hellbend to increase the tax take.

 

Is a credit card a different beast then a debit card (credit involved)?

 

We will see, IMHO therefore a transaction with a credit card is "safer" then a bank transfer because a transfer seems to be 99.99% to be a remittance.

I agree, a CC is totally different than drawing money directly out of your bank account with a debit card. Technically, it's drawing on an established line of credit, and can be paid back over time. In my opinion, it's a loan, not income. What if I borrowed $100k against my home or my stocks, and remitted, would it be income or a loan? Assessable or not? I would guess not, but what do I know. Lots of unknowns right now.

[shdmn]

3 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

I agree, a CC is totally different than drawing money directly out of your bank account with a debit card. Technically, it's drawing on an established line of credit, and can be paid back over time. In my opinion, it's a loan, not income. What if I borrowed $100k against my home or my stocks, and remitted, would it be income or a loan? Assessable or not? I would guess not, but what do I know. Lots of unknowns right now.

That reads more like wishful thinking to me. 

[Mike Teavee]

4 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

I agree, a CC is totally different than drawing money directly out of your bank account with a debit card. Technically, it's drawing on an established line of credit, and can be paid back over time. In my opinion, it's a loan, not income. What if I borrowed $100k against my home or my stocks, and remitted, would it be income or a loan? Assessable or not? I would guess not, but what do I know. Lots of unknowns right now.

We had a debate on this in the main tax thread and there are 2 schools of thought, 1 is that Credit Card spends are short term "Loans" & the other is that it's essentially you getting  the bank to pay for something on your behalf so it's still remitted income. 

 

The UK (only country I'm familiar with that taxes on a remittance basis) treats credit card usage as remitted income if you use an overseas credit card & use money in an overseas bank account to pay it off.

 

Credit card issued by an overseas bank or other financial institution

Where an overseas credit card is used in the UK, the cardholder is effectively authorising the credit card company to pay the bill for the goods or service in just the same way as if they had instructed the bank to make a payment directly to the person supplying the goods or services.

 

The terms of credit card agreements may differ as to the moment of ‘indebtedness’ between the cardholder and the credit card company. However the use of the credit card to pay for goods used or received in the UK, or services provided in the UK by, to or for the benefit of a relevant person will create a ‘relevant debt’.

 

The use of the individual’s untaxed foreign income or gains to pay the credit card company in respect of the relevant debt will be a taxable remittance (refer to RDRM33040 Relevant debt).

Any part of the payment that relates to non-UK goods or services provided outside the UK will not be chargeable.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm33520

 

So if I were to use my Singapore Citibank visa card to buy a new TV in the UK & then pay it off using money from my Singapore bank account, the UK would consider that as remitted income. 

 

 

Again, practically they have no way of tracking CC spends. 

[anrcaccount]

7 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

TRD are unable to see what withdrawals you've made from an ATM (they're not reported on CRS)

 

This is another problem with the source cited by Mike, that source Expat Tax states explicitly that these transactions ARE reported via CRS to the revenue department.

 

The source is not correct, do you agree?

 

 

 

 

[JohnnyBD]

4 hours ago, shdmn said:

That reads more like wishful thinking to me. 

Yes, it was just wishful thinking based on my banking background, but it doesn't affect me, because all my remittances are tax exempt anyway.

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

This is another problem with the source cited by Mike, that source Expat Tax states explicitly that these transactions ARE reported via CRS to the revenue department.

 

The source is not correct, do you agree?

I had a look through the CRS XML Schema (https://web-archive.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/common-reporting-standard/schema-and-user-guide/index.htm) and as far as I could see it only reports closing balances (might be end of day, week, month but at least once per year) so I don't believe ATM or Credit Card transactions are reported (at least that way).

 

Edit: I don't seem to be able to download the CRS XML Schema at the moment & not sure if I still have it on my old Laptop but the overview seems to be saying it's an annual exchange of information... 

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS)

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS) was developed in response to the G20 request and approved by the OECD Council on 15 July 2014. Based on a comprehensive review of the CRS, a number of amendments were adopted in 2023.

 

The CRS calls on jurisdictions to obtain information from their financial institutions and automatically exchange that information with other jurisdictions on an annual basis. It sets out the financial account information to be exchanged, the financial institutions required to report, the different types of accounts and taxpayers covered, as well as common due diligence procedures to be followed by financial institutions.

 

The CRS was designed with a broad scope in terms of the financial information to be reported, the Account Holders subject to reporting and the Financial Institutions required to report, in order to limit the opportunities for taxpayers to circumvent reporting. It also requires that jurisdictions, as part of their effective implementation of the CRS, put in place anti-abuse rules to prevent any practices intended to circumvent the reporting and due diligence procedures.

 

[anrcaccount]

46 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

so I don't believe ATM or Credit Card transactions are reported (at least that way).

You're right. They're not. But the source has misinformed, by saying that they are. 

 

The source is being deceptive, using people's lack of knowledge to create fear to help them sell accounting services. 

 

[EVENKEEL]

7 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

You're right. They're not. But the source has misinformed, by saying that they are. 

 

The source is being deceptive, using people's lack of knowledge to create fear to help them sell accounting services. 

 

Millions of ATM transactions yearly in Thailand. To assume they have the ability to figure out which are from residents and track those residents for tax purposes is extremely far fetched. The foreigner and Thai tax experts will have a feeding frenzy on the gullible foreigners.

[Mike Teavee]

15 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

You're right. They're not. But the source has misinformed, by saying that they are. 

 

The source is being deceptive, using people's lack of knowledge to create fear to help them sell accounting services. 

 

For anybody who fancies a nice light read (!!!) I've just stumbled across TRD's CRS document... 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/FATCA_File/crs/Thailand_CRS_Guidance_280823.pdf

 

 

[anrcaccount]

30 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Millions of ATM transactions yearly in Thailand. To assume they have the ability to figure out which are from residents and track those residents for tax purposes is extremely far fetched. The foreigner and Thai tax experts will have a feeding frenzy on the gullible foreigners.

 

Yes, it's already started.

 

Look at this source , Expat Tax Thailand, straight up lying about how now Thailand is a CRS participant, it means that foreign credit card transactions & ATM withdrawals will be automatically reported to the TRD.

 

Completely false. 

 

 

[motdaeng]

12 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Yes, it's already started.

 

Look at this source , Expat Tax Thailand, straight up lying about how now Thailand is a CRS participant, it means that foreign credit card transactions & ATM withdrawals will be automatically reported to the TRD.

 

Completely false. 

 

 

 

i wonder how you know all that. is it just a gut feeling or a guess?

how can you be so sure? do you have any inside knowledge?

 

any reliable / official source would be great, thank you.

[anrcaccount]

39 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

i wonder how you know all that. is it just a gut feeling or a guess?

how can you be so sure? do you have any inside knowledge?

 

any reliable / official source would be great, thank you.

CRS does not report at that level.

 

Source document posted by another user above. 

[Lorry]

6 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

This is another problem with the source cited by Mike, that source Expat Tax states explicitly that these transactions ARE reported via CRS to the revenue department.

 

The source is not correct, do you agree?

 

 

 

 

Agreed

[saintdomingo]

On 7/6/2024 at 11:48 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

How does your claim make any sense..."Stop taxing those who aren't paying"?  What?

Increasingly you have to wonder whether things like this are brainfarts or spellchecker losing it's grip.

[saintdomingo]

On 7/20/2024 at 6:18 PM, FruitPudding said:

 

So?

 

Are you the taxman? A priest?

 

Why are we debating that? Do you want to pay more taxes?

For some reason he is evading answering your question

 

"Are you the taxman? A priest?"

 

Being a taxman is a perfectly honourable profession.