Weak water flow and pressure

[eyz4eva]

I'm at Sisaket, one of the ampher, where the water pressure is kinda low.

I am thinking of installing a water pressure tank with a motorised pump to increase the water pressure in the house. Here are some info on the pipeline system pressure.

The water meter is at the gate, and the tap which is beside this water meter has the highest flow. There are altogether:-

3 outdoor water point

• 1 tap at the gate (strong) ------ despite strong flow from the tap, the spray pressure is average when i installed a high pressure water spray gun (non-motorised).
• 1 tap at the car porch (ok)
• 1 tap at the rear of the house for laundry (meh)

 

 

3 indoor water point

• 1 master bedroom toilet with 1 shower, 1 basin and 1 toilet bowl (dripping)
• 1 common toilet with 1 shower, 1 basin and 1 toilet bowl (meh)
• 1 kitchen basin (meh)

 

my main concern is the water pressure in both the toilet, as there is not enough pressure for a good shower using the shower head.

 

There are only 2 adults living in the house most of the time.

 

So my questions,

1. Which part of the pipeline system should I install the pressure tank? I had checked through the house and can't really find any water exposed pipe, nor it is in the drainage system. The only visible pipeline is at the main.
2. How many HP should I get for the pump? I saw a promo previously at King Concrete selling a set of 1 HP 370 Watt pump and 1000 L tank for 4000 baht.

 

The staff was telling me that it is only able to give enough pressure to 1 toilet. But I am not too convinced with his advice.

 

Hope someone can advice.

[sometimewoodworker]

The PWA regulations do not permit you to have a pump that sucks from the water supply, which you seem to suggest you want to do.

 

you need to have a storage tank that fills from the mains then you can pump from that tank. The 370W  pump is likely to be enough and if you don’t have a supply problem the 1000L tank is likely to be big enough.

 

@Crosby will likely be along with more information if needed.

 

[tweedledee2]

50 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The PEA regulations do not permit you to have a pump that sucks from the water supply, which you seem to suggest you want to do.

 

The Provincial Electricity Authority does not regulate water supply.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[soi3eddie]

3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The PEA regulations do not permit you to have a pump that sucks from the water supply, which you seem to suggest you want to do.

 

you need to have a storage tank that fills from the mains then you can pump from that tank. The 370W  pump is likely to be enough and if you don’t have a supply problem the 1000L tank is likely to be big enough.

 

@Crosby will likely be along with more information if needed.

 

 

Exactly the solution. Mains to tank, then tank to constant pressure pump to house/taps etc. I wouldn't even bother to put in the bypass supply line direct to the house/taps.

 

[Artisi]

2 hours ago, tweedledee2 said:

 

The Provincial Electricity Authority does not regulate water supply.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But the water authority does and it's still illegal to pump directly from the main, although it is  common practice to do so. 

 

[Crossy]

5 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The PWA regulations do not permit you to have a pump that sucks from the water supply, which you seem to suggest you want to do.

 

you need to have a storage tank that fills from the mains then you can pump from that tank. The 370W  pump is likely to be enough and if you don’t have a supply problem the 1000L tank is likely to be big enough.

 

@Crosby will likely be along with more information if needed.

 

 

Fixed the typo (PEA??).

 

That second diagram looks awfully familiar

 

[Crossy]

You need a location with easy access to the pipework between the meter and the first tap which needs boosting.

That location will also need an electricity supply for the pump.

 

A simple concrete slab to support the tank, a small pump and you're good to go.

 

You may want to increase the pipe size from pump to house if it's less than 3/4".

 

[OneMoreFarang]

Do you have small pipes? And/or maybe clogged pipes?

 

I am no expert, but what you describe above sounds to me like a situation where the flow is restricted by too small pipes.

If this is the case, then more pressure won't solve this problem.

 

I am living in a condominium. First, I was in a unit with the original pipes. The water pressure/flow was ok but not great. And then we had a problem with the main power for two days. After that, lots of rusty water came into the pipes and the flow was a lot worse. In one toilet there was almost no flow at all.

In my new renovated unit in the same building (in a higher floor) I have all new pipes, and the water pressure and flow are great.

The main pipes in the building were replaces with new plastic pipes (the green version) a couple of years ago.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Fixed the typo (PEA??).

 

That second diagram looks awfully familiar

 

You have found my plagiarism  I confess I liberated the diagram without giving due credit to the master. It of course is your original 

[sometimewoodworker]

6 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

 

Exactly the solution. Mains to tank, then tank to constant pressure pump to house/taps etc. I wouldn't even bother to put in the bypass supply line direct to the house/taps.

 

As @eyz4eva has good flow on some taps and the electrical supply here is often cut, not adding the bypass is a mistake.

It is very probably small supply lines that have low pressure/flow and the pump will cure that.

[eyz4eva]

9 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

 

Exactly the solution. Mains to tank, then tank to constant pressure pump to house/taps etc. I wouldn't even bother to put in the bypass supply line direct to the house/taps.

 

 

6 hours ago, Crossy said:

You need a location with easy access to the pipework between the meter and the first tap which needs boosting.

That location will also need an electricity supply for the pump.

 

A simple concrete slab to support the tank, a small pump and you're good to go.

 

You may want to increase the pipe size from pump to house if it's less than 3/4".

 

 

6 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Do you have small pipes? And/or maybe clogged pipes?

 

I am no expert, but what you describe above sounds to me like a situation where the flow is restricted by too small pipes.

If this is the case, then more pressure won't solve this problem.

 

I am living in a condominium. First, I was in a unit with the original pipes. The water pressure/flow was ok but not great. And then we had a problem with the main power for two days. After that, lots of rusty water came into the pipes and the flow was a lot worse. In one toilet there was almost no flow at all.

In my new renovated unit in the same building (in a higher floor) I have all new pipes, and the water pressure and flow are great.

The main pipes in the building were replaces with new plastic pipes (the green version) a couple of years ago.

 

 

3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

As @eyz4eva has good flow on some taps and the electrical supply here is often cut, not adding the bypass is a mistake.

It is very probably small supply lines that have low pressure/flow and the pump will cure that.

 

thanks all for the advice. i thought i posted a reply, apparently it didn't.

 

@sometimewoodworker power supply at the area seems stable, didnt encountered any long interruption, other than 1 stormy night, where there is intermittent stoppage of electricity, and it was resumed almost immediately. though the chap at King Concrete did advised on installing a bypass.

 

@OneMoreFarang One issue is that I can't for sure determine the size of pipe, i'll go meausre that later.

 

so i guess the best next step is to get a plumber to check on what are the exact issues ie. clogged pipe, size of pipes, and what is the best solution.

 

@Crossy @soi3eddie thanks guys, from th schematic diagram, i managed to trace the picture to teakwood, and was able to see some pictures on the underground tank installation. looks like a great solution for me if the tank is to be installed at the front yard, rather than the backyard.

[Crossy]

If you are going underground make sure your tank will never, ever get flooded.

 

Also, your pump suction line will need a foot valve (non-return valve) at the bottom for best results.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, eyz4eva said:

thanks all for the advice. i thought i posted a reply, apparently it didn't.

 

@sometimewoodworker power supply at the area seems stable, didnt encountered any long interruption, other than 1 stormy night, where there is intermittent stoppage of electricity, and it was resumed almost immediately. though the chap at King Concrete did advised on installing a bypass.

 

@OneMoreFarang One issue is that I can't for sure determine the size of pipe, i'll go meausre that later.

 

so i guess the best next step is to get a plumber to check on what are the exact issues ie. clogged pipe, size of pipes, and what is the best solution.

 

@Crossy @soi3eddie thanks guys, from th schematic diagram, i managed to trace the picture to teakwood, and was able to see some pictures on the underground tank installation. looks like a great solution for me if the tank is to be installed at the front yard, rather than the backyard.

 

I don't know how easy that is, but maybe you can add somewhere temporary (for a few minutes) a pump. And then check if when you switch on that pump if that will result in a good water flow. If yes, then you know that a pump will help you. But if a pump does not solve the problem, then it's time to look for other reasons.

Maybe something like a pressure cleaner is good enough for such a test - just an idea.

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, eyz4eva said:

power supply at the area seems stable, didnt encountered any long interruption, other than 1 stormy night, where there is intermittent stoppage of electricity, and it was resumed almost immediately. though the chap at King Concrete did advised on installing a bypass.

Seems stable is wonderful, until it isn’t! Our supply is usually okay as is our water supply, but we had a 5 day power cut a year ago and a 4~6 week water cutoff, the power cut was the most noticeable, we didn’t notice the water was cut until the neighbours asked how we were doing with no water for 2 weeks, we hadn’t noticed as our system has about 2 months storage 

 

[eyz4eva]

On 8/7/2024 at 5:03 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

Seems stable is wonderful, until it isn’t! Our supply is usually okay as is our water supply, but we had a 5 day power cut a year ago and a 4~6 week water cutoff, the power cut was the most noticeable, we didn’t notice the water was cut until the neighbours asked how we were doing with no water for 2 weeks, we hadn’t noticed as our system has about 2 months storage 

 

 

 

haha like all murphy's law..... the water supply got cut off from 12pm to 8pm today for maintenance. luckily we filled up a bigass pail of water last night. yes we had a big pail placed in the bathroom, as the shower head pressure is too weak.

 

anyway, i saw this video from youtube. for sharing.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

11 hours ago, eyz4eva said:

anyway, i saw this video from youtube. for sharing.

You forgot to include a link to the video. @eyz4eva all you posted was a picture 

[eyz4eva]

12 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You forgot to include a link to the video. @eyz4eva all you posted was a picture 

 

thanks for reminding. the video is actually quite informative.

 

 

 

anyway, got a plumber look at the area. he said the only cut he can make to connect the pump system will be at the gate, where the meter is, as there is no sight of any exposed water pipe. and he will have to run a 10 metre pipe to the backyard through the drainage where the pump and the tank will be installed. i thought this was quite ingenious as there will not be any exposed piping on the car porch or the side walkway.

 

from the tank >> pump, he will have to run another 10 to the front of the gate, and connect back to the main.

 

i am not sure the laying of back and forth (10 m from main to tank, 10 m from pump to main) will cause any dip in the pressure output by the pump.

 

any advice?

[sometimewoodworker]

41 minutes ago, eyz4eva said:

any advice?

Use at least a 1” pipe, preferably a 1½” for all the pipes, this is to minimise friction losses. FWIW a ½” has about 80 x the loss than a 1½” one, have as few elbows as possible and 2 x 45^o is better Thai 1 x 90^o

[frequentatore]

Metal pipe after the water meter and in the house?

 

[eyz4eva]

12 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Use at least a 1” pipe, preferably a 1½” for all the pipes, this is to minimise friction losses. FWIW a ½” has about 80 x the loss than a 1½” one, have as few elbows as possible and 2 x 45^o is better Thai 1 x 90^o

 

see attached photo.

 

that is the only length i can work with, as the rest are under the concrete.

 

we have yet to check out the drainage right beside it, whether there is any water pipe, as it's cemented. however, I don't see any water pipe at the walkway drainage leading to the backyard.

 

thanks for the suggestion, i'll check with the plumber whether it is possible and capable to do that. but i reckon the only part that i do a pipe up sizing would be the section running back and forth to the meter, right?

 

1 hour ago, frequentatore said:

Metal pipe after the water meter and in the house?

 

 

all PVC sir 

 

1 hour ago, frequentatore said:

 

[sometimewoodworker]

7 minutes ago, eyz4eva said:

thanks for the suggestion, i'll check with the plumber whether it is possible and capable to do that. but i reckon the only part that i do a pipe up sizing would be the section running back and forth to the meter, right?

That is probably the only part that you can. 
it is certainly possible and easy enough to do. There are fittings available from any size to any size pipe in all the big box stores. Any plumber can do it, but will probably say “no point” “too much money” 

 

Use the same size pipe as the pump (probably a 1” one) despite what Thai (and some foreign) logic says less pipe friction is always better.

 

Our system uses 32mm pipe and with just about a ½ to ¾ bar pressure without the pump we still have enough for a shower, admittedly it is vey week but it is a shower.

[patman30]

42 minutes ago, eyz4eva said:

 

see attached photo.

 

that is the only length i can work with, as the rest are under the concrete.

 

we have yet to check out the drainage right beside it, whether there is any water pipe, as it's cemented. however, I don't see any water pipe at the walkway drainage leading to the backyard.

 

thanks for the suggestion, i'll check with the plumber whether it is possible and capable to do that. but i reckon the only part that i do a pipe up sizing would be the section running back and forth to the meter, right?

 

 

all PVC sir 

 

One thing to note,
do not use those PVC valves outside if exposed to sun,
they just break after a while with any half decent pressure

[billd766]

My water supply runs from the mains supply to 20 ongs and then back down to the pump.

 

The difference is that between the ongs and the pump, I have installed 2 x 20 inch 5 micron filters to filter out the smaller crap that doesn't sink to the bottom of the ongs.

 

I usually replace the first filter once a month and the second filter every 3 months as they get bunged up in that time. Even then smaller particles still get through and stain the toilets.

[Yellowtail]

You can buy a pump and put it between the meter and the house and see if the problem in the house goes away. 

 

If the problem goes away, install a storage tank between the meter and the new pump and you're good to go. 

 

If the problem does not go away, you likely have blockage in the pipes or valves or shower heads. Are any of the pipes or nipples or whatnot galvanized? They can plug up with deposits over the years. 

[eyz4eva]

26 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You can buy a pump and put it between the meter and the house and see if the problem in the house goes away. 

 

If the problem goes away, install a storage tank between the meter and the new pump and you're good to go. 

 

If the problem does not go away, you likely have blockage in the pipes or valves or shower heads. Are any of the pipes or nipples or whatnot galvanized? They can plug up with deposits over the years. 

 

that's what the plumber said, but he also mentioned, the tank doesn't cost that much in the first place. the house is less than 5 years, and i believe all are PVC piping, so there shouldn't be too much deposit, right? also, i tested the pressure on the tap nearest to the meter, i can place my thumb over the tap and stop the flow, so i guess the water pressure is weak.

 

35 minutes ago, billd766 said:

My water supply runs from the mains supply to 20 ongs and then back down to the pump.

 

The difference is that between the ongs and the pump, I have installed 2 x 20 inch 5 micron filters to filter out the smaller crap that doesn't sink to the bottom of the ongs.

 

I usually replace the first filter once a month and the second filter every 3 months as they get bunged up in that time. Even then smaller particles still get through and stain the toilets.

 

thanks for the suggestion, i will keep that in mind to leave some space for a filter. i read somewhere that someone put another filter at the kitchen sink to get drinkable water. i'm not sure of the quality of the raw water, and how much filtration we need process, before to make it into drinking water. but at the moment, i'll try to settle the water pressure issue first.

 

2 hours ago, patman30 said:

One thing to note,
do not use those PVC valves outside if exposed to sun,
they just break after a while with any half decent pressure

 

thanks for the advice.

 

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That is probably the only part that you can. 
it is certainly possible and easy enough to do. There are fittings available from any size to any size pipe in all the big box stores. Any plumber can do it, but will probably say “no point” “too much money” 

 

Use the same size pipe as the pump (probably a 1” one) despite what Thai (and some foreign) logic says less pipe friction is always better.

 

Our system uses 32mm pipe and with just about a ½ to ¾ bar pressure without the pump we still have enough for a shower, admittedly it is vey week but it is a shower.

 

thanks sir. i found another video suggested similar advice as you, using a 1" or 3/4" pipe from the main to the tank pump system, and taper down to 1/2" after the pump. i'll definitely insist the plumber to do just right that. thanks again.

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, eyz4eva said:

thanks sir. i found another video suggested similar advice as you, using a 1" or 3/4" pipe from the main to the tank pump system, and taper down to 1/2" after the pump. i'll definitely insist the plumber to do just right that. thanks again.

There are huge differences in friction losses as you drop down from 1½”

 

once you go to a higher flow rates the friction losses get bigger and bigger.

[eyz4eva]

On 8/11/2024 at 5:21 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

There are huge differences in friction losses as you drop down from 1½”

 

once you go to a higher flow rates the friction losses get bigger and bigger.

 

thanks for the explanation. i understand the 1st table, but not the 2nd graph.

 

btw, are you a experienced plumber yourself. you seems very knowledgeable and familiar with these technical know how.

 

anyway, im having 2nd thoughts on installing a full tank and pump system, as this house belongs to my wife, and we only come back once or twice a year. it was an impulse thoughts, when there was sudden interruption in the water supply. nonetheless, the issue of low water pressure remains. it would be another 15 to 20 years before i retire and decide to stay here permanently.

 

so i am currently considering getting just a pump to temporary mitigate the issue, something less than 2k baht, even if it breaks down while we are away.

 

what do you think? im currently looking at these automatic pump

 

https://oursuggest.com/best-automatic-water-pump/

 

 

[Yellowtail]

rut row

[eyz4eva]

54 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

rut row

 

thats illegal right? i just read somewhere in this forum.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, eyz4eva said:

 

thanks for the explanation. i understand the 1st table, but not the 2nd graph.

 

btw, are you a experienced plumber yourself. you seems very knowledgeable and familiar with these technical know how.

 

anyway, im having 2nd thoughts on installing a full tank and pump system, as this house belongs to my wife, and we only come back once or twice a year. it was an impulse thoughts, when there was sudden interruption in the water supply. nonetheless, the issue of low water pressure remains. it would be another 15 to 20 years before i retire and decide to stay here permanently.

 

so i am currently considering getting just a pump to temporary mitigate the issue, something less than 2k baht, even if it breaks down while we are away.

 

what do you think? im currently looking at these automatic pump

 

https://oursuggest.com/best-automatic-water-pump/

 

 

It is illegal or at least strictly against PWA regulations (not to mention dangerous to health) to install a pump without a storage tank