Thailand issues four major announcements on new visa measures

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, hotchilli said:

The world wide income tax will never happen.

 

How could Thailand accurately know how much 'world wide' income a foreigner receives?

 

Could ask to see bank accounts but perhaps easy for anybody to conceal one (or several) bank accounts. And perhaps another person (Thai or foreigner) is holding the funds?

[macca3248]

So how much is this DTE going to cost and what are the ongoing costs ?

 

[Rolo89]

1 hour ago, hotchilli said:

How can a country say it's going to tax someone on income generated in another country and not transferred to the host country.

Antone thinking of staying or investing in that country would go elsewhere.

Most countries do tax residents on worldwide income regardless of where it's generated or stored.

 

Could get smaller and smaller each year with the countries that don't tax worldwide income. 

[Rolo89]

16 minutes ago, scorecard said:

How could Thailand accurately know how much 'world wide' income a foreigner receives?

 

Could ask to see bank accounts but perhaps easy for anybody to conceal one (or several) bank accounts. And perhaps another person (Thai or foreigner) is holding the funds?

They have your name, DOB, place of birth, passport ID and access to the global systems with all this information.

 

Hiding money elsewhere gets into the fine line of tax avoidance and tax evasion. 

 

 

[Gottfrid]

4 hours ago, NemoH said:

I wonder who will now want a DTV when Thailand will start taxing their world wide income ..

🤣🤣lured in by DTV.. but soon will form the first batch of foreigners to be taxed in Thailand on all their world wide income 🤣🤣🤣 under new Thai laws… 

If World wide income tax will happen, it will be in 1-2 years from now. Something that means the ones who have DTV now will not be affected.

[Rolo89]

My question is if they decide you owe a lot of backdated tax can they only enforce this in their country? If so what's to stop people skipping when they're presented with a large bill and if they never go back to Thailand or if they don't declare WW income for a few years then leave the country? Expats go in and out of the country all the time so they've no idea when someone is leaving for good and the border force don't seem that connected at the moment.

[metisdead]

A troll post has been removed.

[fondue zoo]

4 hours ago, hotchilli said:

The world wide income tax will never happen.

 

stop jinxing us

 

 

_teehee

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16 by fondue zoo

[scorecard]

15 minutes ago, Rolo89 said:

They have your name, DOB, place of birth, passport ID and access to the global systems with all this information.

 

Hiding money elsewhere gets into the fine line of tax avoidance and tax evasion. 

 

 

"They have your name, DOB, place of birth, passport ID and access to the global systems with all this information."

 

So the Thai revenue department knows full details of every bank account I have anywhere / all banks / all countries in the world?

 

NOTE: I'm not trying to find ways to avoid tax, just trying to understand the whole environment. 

[jojothai]

1 hour ago, Patong2021 said:

So much panic over nothing.

Who is eligible to benefit from a double tax agreement? The double tax agreement will be applied to individuals and juristic persons of a signatory state to the agreement.   To be entitled to the benefits of a double tax treaty benefits and be classified as a Thai resident, the person must satisfy the following:

i. An individual who stays in Thailand for at least 180 days in a tax year

ii. A company registered in Thailand with the Ministry of Commerce 

 

 

Thailand has concluded 61 double tax agreements with countries worldwide.

Armenia	Hungary	Poland
Australia	India	Romania
Austria	Indonesia	Russia
Bahrain	Israel	Seychelles
Bangladesh	Italy	Singapore
Belarus	Japan	Slovenia
Belgium	Korea	South Africa
Bulgaria	Kuwait	Spain
Cambodia	Laos	Sri Lanka
Canada	Luxembourg	Sweden
Chile	Malaysia	Switzerland
China	Mauritius	Taipei
Cyprus	Myanmar	Tajikistan
Czech Republic	Nepal	Turkey
Denmark	Netherlands	Ukraine
Estonia	New Zealand	United Arab Emirates
Finland	Norway	United States of America
Germany	Oman	Uzbekistan
Great Britain and Northern Ireland	Pakistan	Vietnam
Hong Kong	Philippines	France

 

https://belaws.com/thailand/double-tax-agreements/

 

So what?

Read some of them,

and you will see that pensions are not covered for many countries. Especially uk, that only covers government service pensions.

For pensions, under some DTA'S tax is liable in the country resident.

[Sydebolle]

Unbelievable, how complicated a visa system can be arranged. In other countries I lived and worked, they had:
- tourist visa, duration earmarked by applicant and fees according to duration
- stay visa for one year; retirees and spouses, a flat fee  
- work visa for the duration of the contract; expiring when the contract got terminated/expired

All visa types required one trip to the immigration office and was dealt with in no time. You sign that the host country is not responsible for any costs occurred which includes eventual repatriation, health services - the works. The half-page stamp showed the expiry date and until then the visa was automatically on a multi-reentry basis; costs between USD 300 and 500. An A4-form in English, one photograph and the visa fee in cash. 

But that would make tens of thousands of Thai immigration goons obsolete, starting with the 90-days notification which is a joke in itself, if you see the widely published announcements whenever they find an "illegal alien" or a "dirty farang who overstayed the grace period"

[Rolo89]

7 minutes ago, scorecard said:

"They have your name, DOB, place of birth, passport ID and access to the global systems with all this information."

 

So the Thai revenue department knows full details of every bank account I have anywhere / all banks / all countries in the world?

 

NOTE: I'm not trying to find ways to avoid tax, just trying to understand the whole environment. 

Over 110 countries are signed up to CRS.

 

Armeina, Guatemala, Cambodia and a handful of other places currently aren't 

Edited September 16 by Rolo89

[jojothai]

46 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

How could Thailand accurately know how much 'world wide' income a foreigner receives?

 

Could ask to see bank accounts but perhaps easy for anybody to conceal one (or several) bank accounts. And perhaps another person (Thai or foreigner) is holding the funds?

Thailand has started implementing thecommon reporting standard.

You are required to give your TIN.

I have had to give it on two accounts here. 

It may be a few years until they agree exchanges of information on accounts with other countries worldwide, but its the next step.

Edited September 16 by jojothai
Add text

[hughrection]

What about some reciprocation when it comes to being married to a Thai for many years.

 

Make it automatic to be able to apply for citizenship after a certain amount of years and stop holding literally thousands of families at hostage.

I would have to leave Thailand if I couldn't come up with the 400,000 baht every year - where is the humanity in that?

What about doing something for the greater good and not just about making money. It's disgusting. 😞

[ChaiyaTH]

24 minutes ago, Rolo89 said:

Over 110 countries are signed up to CRS.

It's not about who is signed up with CRS but about which countries have the best tax arrangements.

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, LOG54 said:

Also..the law requiring tax clearance certificate to leave the country exists, just not enforced now.

 

There are two forms of tax clearance.  (P.3) One is a single exit valid for 15 days.  (P.3.1) The other is multiple exit valid for 180 days for business/professionals.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23518.html

 

It would be simple thing for IO to ask for TCC (get used to using the acronym!) when filing request for extension of stay.  No different than adding other "Other evidence as required by the Immigration Officer", such as a hand-drawn map to your residence.

 

That simply extends the visa extension shuffle by a few hours.  Soon it'll be 8am bank, 11am tax office, 2pm immigration.

 

No problem at the airports either as the law already exists.  Enforcement only requires a nice officer to set up a folding table at the entrance to check passport stamps to determine TCC (you know what that is now!) requirement, and stamp the new form required when getting a boarding pass.  No different than going through covid clearance when entering prior to ID check and metal detector entering immigration building at CW.

 

 

[ChaiyaTH]

8 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

That simply extends the visa extension shuffle by a few hours.  Soon it'll be 8am bank, 11am tax office, 2pm immigration.

If they add tax papers to the already ever changing paperwork requirements, per immigration office, that is just the end for Thailand long-stay. Just to sort it out accounting wise would likely cost 30-50K baht a year more alone, aside of taxes themself.

 

Then add for example only 150K in taxes too, that is a total of early 200K baht a year. One can do a lot with that, it is like a second home in SE asia paid for if keeping both all year round. 

 

Obviously the entire issue is that nobody wants to move around all the time, and like it here, else people already left, I really can't see how Thailand would do this for real + enforce it, it would damage a lot. Keep in mind too many tourist orientated business owners are foreigners too, not to mention they suddenly would need to pay the full taxes, i can see inflation happen everywhere even more.

 

Would be like the last nail in the coffin.

Edited September 16 by ChaiyaTH

[NoDisplayName]

45 minutes ago, Rolo89 said:

My question is if they decide you owe a lot of backdated tax can they only enforce this in their country? If so what's to stop people skipping when they're presented with a large bill and if they never go back to Thailand or if they don't declare WW income for a few years then leave the country? Expats go in and out of the country all the time so they've no idea when someone is leaving for good and the border force don't seem that connected at the moment.

 

TCC.

[john donson]

ed plus, wow, I want a fake degree , never attend class if I can work legally... how mutt ?

[ChaiyaTH]

54 minutes ago, Rolo89 said:

My question is if they decide you owe a lot of backdated tax can they only enforce this in their country

They can't backdate it, if this law becomes effective it would most likely start from jan 1 2025. I guess even then one could likely still get away with it until mid 2026 but I guess that's what everyone waits for, if they suddenly say they will require papers with immigration, you would see ten thousands flee.

 

I wanted to move to a new house as well but now reluctant as of not knowing what is next. 

Edited September 16 by ChaiyaTH

[john donson]

4 hours ago, Kerryd said:

I really can't see Revenue Clerks in Thailand trying to check bank accounts of foreigners in every country that's a part of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) that developed the "Standard for Automatic Exchange of Financial Account Information" (or "Common Reporting Standard" for short).

Thailand isn't a member of the OECD yet (in progress as of mid-2024) and though they are a member of the Global Forum on Transparency and Exchange of Information for Tax Purposes, they haven't signed on to the Common Reporting Standard so by rights they can't check foreign bank balances of people who are "tax resident" in Thailand.

And then there's going to be the confusion (and constant arguments) about which income is "taxable" and which isn't and how they are going to deal with non-pension income that's already taxed in your home country (and interpreting the clauses of the different tax treaties between each country which are not only going to be different in languages but in the interpretation of terms and conditions).

And right now, doing a tax return is "voluntary" and as far as I know, they don't have any way to verify who has or hasn't done a Return.

Immigration and Revenue are two different departments and I doubt Immigration wants to start doing Revenue's job for them.
Imagine if you are on a "year long" Visa or Extension and you "go home" or visit another country for a week and when you come back to Thailand (via airport or border crossing) and they want to see your tax returns before they'll let you back into the country.

And imagine the line-ups at Immigration when you go to do an Extension or 90 day Report or any other business and they want to see your tax returns first.

But remember, this isn't about the couple thousand "western expats" living here on their pensions or about a couple thousand "digital nomads" making miniscule income from the occasional "best 10 movies that never won an Oscar" or "Top 10 worst movies to win an Oscar" lists they make up once in awhile.

China is a member of the OECD and has signed onto the Common Reporting Standard.

And you can bet there are going to be a lot more Chinese "workers" and "expats" in Thailand soon than all the "Western expats" combined.

Whenever Thailand changes something that affects foreigners, like Visa rules, condo ownership rules or tax rules, know that they are NOT thinking about the tiny percentage of "western" foreigners. 

They ARE thinking about the masses of Chinese workers and expats and businesses. That is the driving force behind these changes.

And for people who only have pension income and there's a tax treaty between those countries that covers that income - it won't be an issue anyways.

But I suspect there's going to be a lot of issues and a lot of changes in how they handle this over the next couple of years.

 

you are confused

 

immigration will DEMAND PROOF from you, translated to Thai, certified by MFA, not the other way round, they will not do anything, you will , if you want your extension...  

[NoDisplayName]

1 minute ago, ChaiyaTH said:

If they add tax papers to the already ever changing paperwork requirements, per immigration office, that is just the end for Thailand long-stay.

 

Not likely.  Just one more tiny, little, flimsy piece of paper.  "It's only wafer thin."

 

 

[ChaiyaTH]

2 minutes ago, john donson said:

 

you are confused

 

immigration will DEMAND PROOF from you, translated to Thai, certified by MFA, not the other way round, they will not do anything, you will , if you want your extension...  

True and otherwise they will make a calculation on their own + fine you and/or simply jail or deport you I guess. Plus that tax evasion is a crime too, they better start building new jails.

Edited September 16 by ChaiyaTH

[NoDisplayName]

20 minutes ago, john donson said:

 

you are confused

 

immigration will DEMAND PROOF from you, translated to Thai, certified by MFA, not the other way round, they will not do anything, you will , if you want your extension...  

 

Possible, but not likely.  Thai tax is an honor system, whereby you self-determine whether your remitted income is assessable.  That's not going to change, so most of us will have to swallow this "one thin mint," file an online return, add in a trip to TRD for a TCC  maximum 15 days before extension or travel. 

 

Just another senseless paperwork drill.  For most.  As things currently stand, MY particular situation involves 15 minutes filing an online Thai tax form.  No different than filing an annual FBAR online.

 

The potential change here for ME would be adding one more step prior to extension/travel.  Add a trip to TRD for the paper, much like adding a trip to the bank for the paper.

 

Eventually BOT will run a monthly computer program to identify questionable incoming transfer patterns.  Select foreigners will be "invited" to the local TRD office for an interview.  This is where your scenario could play out. 

 

It won't be at immigration, as they only want the TCC from TRD.  Screeners at immigration will check for this when they approve your paperwork prior to you getting a queu ticket, same as screeners at the airport will check prior to you queuing up for a boarding pass.

 

This is all simple and feasible. 

 

Now if global taxation becomes a thing............."better bring a bucket!"

 

 

Edited September 16 by NoDisplayName

[black tabby12345]

For foreigners, easier and cheaper to stay longer in this kingdom.

For Thai Govt, harder to sell their pricy Elite Card.

Edited September 16 by black tabby12345

[nickmondo]

6 hours ago, NemoH said:

I wonder who will now want a DTV when Thailand will start taxing their world wide income ..

🤣🤣lured in by DTV.. but soon will form the first batch of foreigners to be taxed in Thailand on all their world wide income 🤣🤣🤣 under new Thai laws… 

Thailand CANNOT tax worldwide income.  It is not possible.  The sooner people stop spreading this nonsense the better

[oznomad]

Not mentioned, or ignored with blinkers on, in this thread with regards to tax, are two HUGE issues.

 

1. Digital ID

2. CBDC (Central Bank Digital Currency).

 

These pearls combined will have no reason for anyone to think about most of the points raised.

 

If unsure, do some research. You wont have to look far. 

Does anyone think that the 10,000 'free' baht for citizens is the govt just being nice?

It's not. This is just a step to getting everyone on CBDCs.

 

Reflect upon the good times, as the future isn't bright.

[LOG54]

2 hours ago, john donson said:

 

you are confused

 

immigration will DEMAND PROOF from you, translated to Thai, certified by MFA, not the other way round, they will not do anything, you will , if you want your extension...  

Fortunately they apparently didn't think about it but a very simple way for them would be based on immigration rules where they assume you need 65.000 bahts per month to live here..so 800.000 bahts per year ..they tax on 800.000 bahts whatever they decide 5, 10 or 15%.. quick and simple.. they inform you have to go to RD and pay before 31st of march each year and join your TCC when applying for visa extension.. At least we would spare accountant/tax specialist fees..

They could say this is the minimum to pay.. but you should inform if you enter more and spend more... If people rent a house/condo for 30, 40 or 50.000 per month or more, they would assume you definitely are above 65.000 per month.. Then if you don't inform or lie.. penalties/criminal case for tax evasion/avoidance etc..

When elderly, it is difficult to be 6 months somewhere then fly to another place.. pay for 2 places rents or purchase (unless you wish to live with only one luggage of personal items) Then you have the flights bills, car renting in at least one of both places etc..

This would reach even more expensive than paying taxes

... and people who have a Thai family, kids at school cannot do that

Have a good day 

[thaibreaker]

5 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

So much panic over nothing.

Who is eligible to benefit from a double tax agreement? The double tax agreement will be applied to individuals and juristic persons of a signatory state to the agreement.   To be entitled to the benefits of a double tax treaty benefits and be classified as a Thai resident, the person must satisfy the following:

i. An individual who stays in Thailand for at least 180 days in a tax year

ii. A company registered in Thailand with the Ministry of Commerce 

 

 

Thailand has concluded 61 double tax agreements with countries worldwide.

Armenia	Hungary	Poland
Australia	India	Romania
Austria	Indonesia	Russia
Bahrain	Israel	Seychelles
Bangladesh	Italy	Singapore
Belarus	Japan	Slovenia
Belgium	Korea	South Africa
Bulgaria	Kuwait	Spain
Cambodia	Laos	Sri Lanka
Canada	Luxembourg	Sweden
Chile	Malaysia	Switzerland
China	Mauritius	Taipei
Cyprus	Myanmar	Tajikistan
Czech Republic	Nepal	Turkey
Denmark	Netherlands	Ukraine
Estonia	New Zealand	United Arab Emirates
Finland	Norway	United States of America
Germany	Oman	Uzbekistan
Great Britain and Northern Ireland	Pakistan	Vietnam
Hong Kong	Philippines	France

 

https://belaws.com/thailand/double-tax-agreements/

 

No one will be taxed twice, but the double tax agreement only means that if Thailand decides to tax you, you will be taxed at their level of tax. And that is in many cases a little more than in your home country. You will be reimbursed in your own country once a year.

This is not rocket science.

 

Many expats do this already today, either by choice, or because that is the rules from their own country as well (you tax in which country you live more than 180 days). Several countries have this rule today (with double tax agreement), amongst them the Scandinavian countries, and citizens from these are well familiar with this practice.

Edited September 16 by thaibreaker

[LOG54]

20 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

No one will be taxed twice, but the double tax agreement only means that if Thailand decides to tax you, you will be taxed at their level of tax. And that is in many cases a little more than in your home country. You will be reimbursed in your own country once a year.

This is not rocket science.

 

Many expats do this already today, either by choice, or because that is the rules from their own country as well (you tax in which country you live more than 180 days). Several countries have this rule today (with double tax agreement), amongst them the Scandinavian countries, and citizens from these are well familiar with this practice.

I 100% agree with you... There is still an issue at least for french... In Thailand  if the law goes through, tax filing and payment on 31st march 25..BUT for 24, in France tax filing in may 25 and amount to pay received end of August 25.. so I assume we would have to pay full amount in Thailand, then ask for refund of the amount payed in France to Thai RD and following year, ask the french tax department to deduct from your tax the amount paid in Thailand, no ?

I don't see how to pay partially in Thailand if I don't have the amount to pay in France..

Have a good day