Common reporting standard (CRS) information

[jojothai]

With all the discussion about potential new tax rules, its likely that people need to know what the current status is with Thailand regarding the CRS. So I will give some info.

I cannot put this post on Thai news, and cannot find any appropriate forum for tax issues. So I have to use this forum.
Because tax matters are now a big topic, perhaps one of the moderators can look at adding a forum for Thailand Taxation.

To continue
 

I just found the Thai summary of their CRS guidance. Not seen it before.
Its a pdf and 67 pages so i cannot attach.
Go to
https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/FATCA_File/crs/Thailand_CRS_Guidance_280823.pdf

I have also checked now how many agreements that Thailand has already got in place for exchange of Information with other countries,

and it is substantial. Bad news, Much quicker than I had thought. 
Go to
https://web-archive.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/international-framework-for-the-crs/exchange-relationships/index.htm

and choose Thailand.
For the people asking how the Thais will get the information for global income, then this indicates that the Thais have done what they need to get the exchange of information from many financial institutions overseas.

Its not good news but I trust some people will find it useful.

 

[topt]

Respectfully have you actually read or participated in any of the tax threads running in this or the news section? I can only assume not since there are a number of ongoing "tax" related threads in this section that you have posted.

 

Although the information you have posted has been previously discussed I am sure there are many who probably missed out on it so it could produce yet another bumper crop of posts.........

[SportRider]

Thankyou for this post. 

 

 

[Foxx]

Am I right in believing (1) that the United States is not party to CRS, (2) FATCA information only flowed in one direction - from Thailand to the United States,  meaning (3) the Thai tax authorities know nothing about residents' income arising in the United States.  This (if correct) would mean a massive loophole.

[JBChiangRai]

I can't help wondering if this breaches your basic human rights to privacy and whether someone will test it in the courts.

[Srikcir]

25 minutes ago, Foxx said:

Am I right in believing (1) that the United States is not party to CRS, (2) FATCA information only flowed in one direction - from Thailand to the United States,  meaning (3) the Thai tax authorities know nothing about residents' income arising in the United States.  This (if correct) would mean a massive loophole.

I'd expect parties to the US Double Taxation Treaty will have access to US/foreign income information. Thailand has such treaty with US.

[nong38]

25 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I can't help wondering if this breaches your basic human rights to privacy and whether someone will test it in the courts.

Privacy does not apply to Governments they can access whatever they want usually using the usual excuses of 1. National Security and suspected Terrorist activities and money laundering suspicions and whilst you may think this is not right, they can and do do it. A relative of min told me this who had to sign the official secrets document. You just have to hope they do not have cause to come your way.

[Old Croc]

10 hours ago, topt said:

Respectfully have you actually read or participated in any of the tax threads running in this or the news section? I can only assume not since there are a number of ongoing "tax" related threads in this section that you have posted.

I'm also surprised there isn't a stand-alone sub-forum for taxation.

It is a little annoying having to sift through many unrelated posts in " Jobs, Economy, Banking, Business, Investments" to get to this essential and concerning subject

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, nong38 said:

Privacy does not apply to Governments they can access whatever they want usually using the usual excuses of 1. National Security and suspected Terrorist activities and money laundering suspicions and whilst you may think this is not right, they can and do do it. A relative of min told me this who had to sign the official secrets document. You just have to hope they do not have cause to come your way.

 

Governments have had to change their policies after cases heard at the European Court of Human Rights.

 

Sharing details with some governments might be ok, but let's take Iran or North Korea, or even China.  I wouldn't be happy with my information being shared with any of those.

[Foxx]

26 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

I'd expect parties to the US Double Taxation Treaty will have access to US/foreign income information. Thailand has such treaty with US.

 

The USA-Thailand DTA does allow for the sharing of information, however, the information is shared upon request (not automatic) and must be specific to a tax investigation or enforcement issue.

[TimBKK]

4 hours ago, Foxx said:

Am I right in believing (1) that the United States is not party to CRS, (2) FATCA information only flowed in one direction - from Thailand to the United States,  meaning (3) the Thai tax authorities know nothing about residents' income arising in the United States.  This (if correct) would mean a massive loophole.

I believe you are correct - Thailand would only have access to CRS-like data for US citizens if you, as a Thai tax resident, were compelled to provide it (by audit) or voluntarily provided it to the Thai RD.

 

 

[jojothai]

15 hours ago, topt said:

Respectfully have you actually read or participated in any of the tax threads running in this or the news section? I can only assume not since there are a number of ongoing "tax" related threads in this section that you have posted.

 

Although the information you have posted has been previously discussed I am sure there are many who probably missed out on it so it could produce yet another bumper crop of posts.........

I have seen a lot and read a lot of threads and contributed to some posts.
I find the comment misguided. Please tell me where this information has been posted previously for others to see?
I have not seen the CRS guidance posted  and that is why i posted it separately, so that the title is clear, without the need to search many threads that IMHO do not give the information. This was not done to start a bumper crop of posts.
If i give the details clearly under the precise heading, it may help to prevent the bumper crop of posts made that indicate a lack of knowledge of the CRS and status for Thailand.

[jojothai]

2 hours ago, TimBKK said:

I believe you are correct - Thailand would only have access to CRS-like data for US citizens if you, as a Thai tax resident, were compelled to provide it (by audit) or voluntarily provided it to the Thai RD.

 

One of the reasons for the information i posted was to help stop people guessing.
If you go to the reference i gave for the agreements that countries have in place for exchange of Information,
You will see that the united states is not included. And no country has agreements for exchange of information with USA under the CRS.
That's because, as rightly pointed out by Foxx, the USA is not party to the CRS.

And I agree with what Foxx stated. The Thai tax authorities will know nothing about residents' income arising in the United States from the CRS system.
There may be other ways they  can request the information. I personally do not know
Yes, its a loophole in the CRS for US citizens, and I would think also for any individuals who have bank accounts in the USA.

Edited September 18 by jojothai
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[topt]

3 hours ago, jojothai said:

Please tell me where this information has been posted previously for others to see?

In the thread where you would expect a lot of tax stuff to be posted...........on 20th August

 

Then after that a number of posts dealing more specifically with CRS and credit cards - but not specific to the US question you raise.

[topt]

3 hours ago, jojothai said:

Yes, its a loophole in the CRS for US citizens, and I would think also for any individuals who have bank accounts in the USA.

yes outlined in this article if you go down almost to the bottom

https://auresnotes.com/non-crs-countries/

[jojothai]

4 hours ago, topt said:

In the thread where you would expect a lot of tax stuff to be posted...........on 20th August

 

Then after that a number of posts dealing more specifically with CRS and credit cards - but not specific to the US question you raise.

Good thanks, but was that in the post thread or in the document referenced.? The title does not point at the CRS
People are not likely to be reading every reference of discussion. You may be, but from the discussions i see I did not identify reference to the guidance. 
Its very difficult for somebody to identify things like this without spending hours trawling so many posts and seeing  all the crap then going to every reference.

That's why i posted very directly, so that it should be easier for people to search.
with respect , if you read and know all the posts , my post was not directed at you.
It was made to stop all the many ill informed posts from people that do not yet know or understand what is happening.

The forum should provide help, There are too many opinions and I am sick and tired of seeing the posts where people have no idea what is going on.
I hope the post rectifies some of that.

If you think the post was intended to generate lost of posts, that was not the intention.
Now, from what you have questioned, I do not see why i should make any more posts to help people.

Edited September 18 by jojothai
add text

[treetops]

On 9/18/2024 at 1:46 AM, Foxx said:

Am I right in believing (1) that the United States is not party to CRS . . . .

 

The CRS specifies the format of information and yes, the USA doesn't use this format.  I have mentioned this elsewhere, but the sharing (by the USA) appears to be done using the "Global Forum on Transparency and Exchange of Information for Tax Purposes" which is effectively the same thing as the CRS reporting, just using different mechanics, the way I understand it.

[Everyman]

Has it occurred to nobody that allowing pretty much any government official in every country in the world to access the financial records of anyone in the world is a massive national security issue.

 

To be more clear, do you think that the U.S. government is going to let some tin pot official in Cambodia or Thailand or Iran to access financial records of FBI agents, US senators, or soldiers? With enough analysis there is a lot of information that could be learned this way.

 

Applying Occam’s razor, a sensible explanation is that it doesn’t work that way, and just because someone works at the revenue department doesn’t mean they can see all your financial information in another country. 

[Foxx]

18 hours ago, Everyman said:

Has it occurred to nobody that allowing pretty much any government official in every country in the world to access the financial records of anyone in the world is a massive national security issue.

 

Yes.  That's why it doesn't happen, and isn't going to happen.  The reporting is set up such that a country can only receive data on its own nationals and residents.  And those data are very limited to cash balances and consolidated income.  It's all designed to stop people hiding their money and investments offshore and so avoiding tax.

[chiang mai]

18 hours ago, Everyman said:

Has it occurred to nobody that allowing pretty much any government official in every country in the world to access the financial records of anyone in the world is a massive national security issue.

 

To be more clear, do you think that the U.S. government is going to let some tin pot official in Cambodia or Thailand or Iran to access financial records of FBI agents, US senators, or soldiers? With enough analysis there is a lot of information that could be learned this way.

 

Applying Occam’s razor, a sensible explanation is that it doesn’t work that way, and just because someone works at the revenue department doesn’t mean they can see all your financial information in another country. 

I think you have things the wrong way round.

 

If the TRD decides to audit somebody, or at least conduct some form of investigation, based on what an individual taxpayer has written in their tax return, the burden of proof is on the tax payer to prove beyond reasonable doubt that what they have declared is true. The TRD does not have to look at overseas records or provide proof from another country's Revenue Department, the tax payer has to provide that information for them. Having provided the information, the TRD will then take a view as to whether the case is proven or not.

 

If Taxpayer A decides not to declare a remittance, because it is exempt savings or similar, the TRD will simply say.....prove it, show us the documentation to confirm that because if you don't or can't, we will presume the remittance is taxable income and we will estimate the Thai tax that is due and present you with a bill.

[Yumthai]

25 minutes ago, Foxx said:

It's all designed to stop people hiding their money and investments offshore and so avoiding tax.

In case of Thailand money is not "hid" offshore as there is currently no Thai tax on foreign income held abroad. Thai tax is legally avoided as long as offshore money not remitted (or remitted exempted) in Thailand.

[Yumthai]

14 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

TRD will then take a view as to whether the case is proven or not.

How? Will they then contact other countries' RD/financial institutions/lawyers... to get genuine information? If so, how likely will they get an answer?

[chiang mai]

54 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

How? Will they then contact other countries' RD/financial institutions/lawyers... to get genuine information? If so, how likely will they get an answer?

They don't have to, the taxpayer has to do that. Once again, the onus is on the taxpayer to provide proof of their claim.

[Foxx]

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

In case of Thailand money is not "hid" offshore as there is currently no Thai tax on foreign income held abroad. Thai tax is legally avoided as long as offshore money not remitted (or remitted exempted) in Thailand.

 

That's a red herring.  CRS is not specific to Thailand, and most countries seek to tax residents' offshore income.

[Foxx]

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

How? Will they then contact other countries' RD/financial institutions/lawyers... to get genuine information? If so, how likely will they get an answer?

 

The whole point of CRS is that the information is provided automatically by financial institutions.  No need to contact other countries.  Information certain to be genuine.

[Yumthai]

52 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

How? Will they then contact other countries' RD/financial institutions/lawyers... to get genuine information? If so, how likely will they get an answer?

They don't have to, the taxpayer has to do that. Once again, the onus is on the taxpayer to provide proof of their claim.

Then, what do you mean by: "Having provided the information, the TRD will then take a view as to whether the case is proven or not."

How TRD will assess the case is proven or not?

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Then, what do you mean by: "Having provided the information, the TRD will then take a view as to whether the case is proven or not."

How TRD will assess the case is proven or not?

Are you bored this morning!

 

TRD will assess whether the evidence provided is credible, adequate, and proves the  taxpayers case.

[Yumthai]

35 minutes ago, Foxx said:

The whole point of CRS is that the information is provided automatically by financial institutions.  No need to contact other countries.  Information certain to be genuine.

Automatic FI information is not exhaustive. No information from offshore loans or gifts.

 

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Are you bored this morning!

 

TRD will assess whether the evidence provided is credible, adequate, and proves the  taxpayers case.

I wonder how? Without direct proven information from foreign entities, TRD assessment is out of thin air.  

[chiang mai]

"I wonder how? Without direct proven information from foreign entities, TRD assessment is out of thin air".  

 

TRD assessment would not be out of thin air, it would be based on what you had written in your tax return or, if you hadn't fil;ed one, the information you had provided subsequently. If you decline to file a return or to tell them anything subsequently, then yes, their assessment would be an estimate based on the things they can see. If that happens, that's the price you pay for not defending yourself and providing the requested clarification.

 

You still don't seem to understand even though I keep saying that the burden of proof is on the taxpayer to supply proof to the TRD that what they have said is true and accurate. The taxpayer has to supply sufficient evidence to satisfy the TRD. There is no reason for TRD to go to the foreign entity, unless they suspect fraud, in which case it becomes a criminal matter.

 

You might be able to supply a statement that proves your case and TRD may accept that. Or, they may look at the statement and ask for documentation to clarify some aspect of what is said in the statement, in which case its your job to provide that clarification.

 

 

[Yumthai]

4 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

"I wonder how? Without direct proven information from foreign entities, TRD assessment is out of thin air".  

 

TRD assessment would not be out of thin air, it would be based on what you had written in your tax return or, if you hadn't fil;ed one, the information you had provided subsequently. If you decline to file a return or to tell them anything subsequently, then yes, their assessment would be an estimate based on the things they can see. If that happens, that's the price you pay for not defending yourself and providing the requested clarification.

 

You still don't seem to understand even though I keep saying that the burden of proof is on the taxpayer to supply proof to the TRD that what they have said is true and accurate. The taxpayer has to supply sufficient evidence to satisfy the TRD. There is no reason for TRD to go to the foreign entity, unless they suspect fraud, in which case it becomes a criminal matter.

 

You might be able to supply a statement that proves your case and TRD may accept that. Or, they may look at the statement and ask for documentation to clarify some aspect of what is said in the statement, in which case its your job to provide that clarification.

My point is TRD has no reach outside of Thailand (unless criminal case + international warrant), so any well written piece of paper is an uncontested proof. But of course there's always the "at their discretion" that makes law and rules pointless.