The annoyance of the ++ prices

[Middle Aged Grouch]

As a foreigner, you will generally always be ripped off and charged more in all restaurants in Thailand. No matter if you are accompanied or not with a Thai lady or boy.

[donmuang37]

On 9/20/2024 at 2:52 PM, Dirk Z said:

In most European countries prices for goods must be shown as what they actually are. No surprises when the bill arrives. In many Thai establishments, in Bangkok even the vast majority, there are prices on menus that change according to the small print at the bottom: "10% service charge and 7% VAT will be added."

Since this is a fixed increase it is hard to understand why the prices cannot already be shown as the final amount needed to pay, instead of everyone having tho make the the calculation themselves or getting an unpleasant surprise when the bill comes up.

Although the prices seem lower, there is unpleasantness in the end, so I don't see the upside of this way of presenting a menu. Or can anyone enlighten me?

News Flash for Dirk. This isn't Europe!  (Thank goodness!!)

Here, they do it the Thai way.

[Zack61]

In Australia all prices are inclusive of tax. The consumer knows what they are going to pay each and every time. This makes for a much better experience with no nasty or unexpected add-ons. 
As someone stated earlier, stay away from those that deal from the bottom of the deck and aren’t completely up front with their pricing. The power is with you. 

[BigStar]

1 hour ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

As a foreigner, you will generally always be ripped off and charged more in all restaurants in Thailand. No matter if you are accompanied or not with a Thai lady or boy.

 

Utter nonsense.

[Celsius]

If you go to a restaurant in Canada the final price will literally be 50% more than on the menu

[BigStar]

  

31 minutes ago, Zack61 said:

This makes for a much better experience with no nasty or unexpected add-ons. 

 

The service charge and VAT aren't nasty. Australia should use more VAT and less income tax. They aren't unexpected, as the percentages are listed up front at the bottom of the menu. One trip to a Thai restaurant teaches you look there if you never have and are interested.

 

Moreover, our mathematically illiterate, seemingly quite a few here, don't need to suffer the onerous, time-consuming burden of trying to calculate a tip themselves, unless they'd hoped to lay down the usual generous 10 baht.

 

The practice in no way detracts from the "experience," unless you just want an excuse to whinge. 

 

40 minutes ago, Zack61 said:

As someone stated earlier, stay away from those that deal from the bottom of the deck and aren’t completely up front with their pricing.

 

And so miss out on this delicious steak for your street food?

 

 

The answer to that is

 

 

[Scott Tracy]

6 hours ago, Irish star said:

$2.50 an hour and you want them to discuss lol

So why do people work for these wages? No guarantee of tips to make the wage a living wage?

 

This makes them their own worst enemy. But I guess anything else is socialism/communism....

[Scott Tracy]

6 hours ago, Irish star said:

It’s been a century, you want to change it overnight 

Ireland changed from the Punt to the Euro over night, Sweden changed the side of the road cars drive, overnight... Some governments change overnight.... So why not?

[JimTripper]

On 9/20/2024 at 3:35 PM, scubascuba3 said:

I guess they are being sneaky by showing the lower prices, yes they could easily add the VAT and tip, just avoid those places if you don't like it

Like the Big C food court?

[soi3eddie]

14 hours ago, jippytum said:

Many esablisments do not pass the gratuities to the staff. 

 

So here lies part of the issue. Is "service charge" a gratuity (TIP) and passed to the staff? I suspect NOT in Thailand. I hate the ++ but have to accept it depending on the establishment - suggest others do too.

 

In the UK, VAT @20% is always included. Many places in UK will add a "discrentionary service charge" of typically 12.5%. This can legitimately be deducted with no issue (in my experience). I then will give the server/s a CASH Tip of greater amount if warranted.

 

 

[GammaGlobulin]

On 9/20/2024 at 2:52 PM, Dirk Z said:

In most European countries prices for goods must be shown as what they actually are. No surprises when the bill arrives. In many Thai establishments, in Bangkok even the vast majority, there are prices on menus that change according to the small print at the bottom: "10% service charge and 7% VAT will be added."

Since this is a fixed increase it is hard to understand why the prices cannot already be shown as the final amount needed to pay, instead of everyone having tho make the the calculation themselves or getting an unpleasant surprise when the bill comes up.

Although the prices seem lower, there is unpleasantness in the end, so I don't see the upside of this way of presenting a menu. Or can anyone enlighten me?

 

Why not just do what I do:

 

Eat at the uni cafeteria.

 

Most dishes are Bt.25 per dish.

 

No tax.

 

No hidden costs.

 

And, very good food.

 

Plus...

You can look at the girls, or they might look at you.

 

Also, a very relaxed atmosphere with super friendly people all about you.

 

There is no better dining bargain than this, ... IMHO....

 

Give it a try.

 

Not sure about the girls at Chula, though....

 

 

[HighPriority]

On 9/21/2024 at 3:52 AM, still kicking said:

Agree I live in OZ we have similar system try eating out in OZ one cafe charged $AUD 9 for a small bag of chips(French Fries)

The price of chips in Australia isn’t relevant, the fact that the price on the board is what you pay is.

There is an establishing trend in Oz to surcharge on public holidays and for eftpos fees however.

[LukKrueng]

On 9/20/2024 at 3:35 PM, scubascuba3 said:

I guess they are being sneaky by showing the lower prices, yes they could easily add the VAT and tip, just avoid those places if you don't like it

I would guess the separation is for taxation reasons. The 10% service fee is supposed to go to the employees so probably not taxed as part of the business income

[scubascuba3]

6 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

I would guess the separation is for taxation reasons. The 10% service fee is supposed to go to the employees so probably not taxed as part of the business income

shouldn't be difficult for software to separate, that's just an excuse businesses might use 

[LukKrueng]

31 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

shouldn't be difficult for software to separate, that's just an excuse businesses might use 

Not really. Might be regulations. In the travel industry in Thailand there is a separation between airline tickets and ground services (hotel, tours) and not allowed (or at least wasn't allowed in the past) to issue 1 invoice for both tours and tickets due to the different was VAT is calculated. 

[Lemsta69]

16 hours ago, NoshowJones said:

If I am not a regular customer in a restaurant and there is the small print of 17% added to the price that I am not supposed to notice, I just pay the price before the 17% extra, and just say, "Oh I never noticed the small print that I am not supposed to notice".

 

It's actually higher than 17% because service charge is added to the base price and then VAT is added on top of the sub-total. 

 

The equation is x * 1.10 * 1.07 = x * 1.177.

 

So it's closer to 18% than 17%. Took me a while to figure that out after I first got here and the numbers on the bill didn't add up. 

[Lemsta69]

15 hours ago, donmuang37 said:

News Flash for Dirk. This isn't Europe!  (Thank goodness!!)

Here, they do it the Thai way.

 

The Thai way is to show the total price. "Plus plus" of 17.7% is a foreign concept. I don't know the history but I presume it came from the hotel industry. 

[bradiston]

Here's what an airline adds to its basic fare of 2,646 THB to boot it up to 6,887.

[Lemsta69]

On 9/20/2024 at 2:52 PM, Dirk Z said:

In most European countries prices for goods must be shown as what they actually are. No surprises when the bill arrives. In many Thai establishments, in Bangkok even the vast majority, there are prices on menus that change according to the small print at the bottom: "10% service charge and 7% VAT will be added."

Since this is a fixed increase it is hard to understand why the prices cannot already be shown as the final amount needed to pay, instead of everyone having tho make the the calculation themselves or getting an unpleasant surprise when the bill comes up.

Although the prices seem lower, there is unpleasantness in the end, so I don't see the upside of this way of presenting a menu. Or can anyone enlighten me?

 

I first saw this in Indonesia on my first trip to Indonesia in the late 1990s. It was when we went to a "fancy" hotel in Surabaya for a bacon and egg breakfast instead of a local restaurant. That was ++.

 

Then we went to Singapore and it was +++ FFS! Again, it was in more "fancy" places. Hawker centres etc didn't do that nonsense at that time. 

 

When I first came to Thailand in 1997 I went to places like Koh Samui, the "Koh San Road" and Pattaya and I rarely saw the ++ nonsense. That was both at local restaurants and foreign restaurants. I ate mostly at "budget" places and just assumed that the practice was exclusive to "higher end" places that I couldn't afford 😂

 

I don't know where the practice originated in SEA but I've always gotten the impression that it came from the American hotel industry. I've no evidence to back that up, it's just a gut feeling.

 

Now that I have more funds than in my backpacking days I don't have to stick to "budget" restaurants. I've noticed that the ++ in Bangkok isn't limited to the fancy hotel chains, it has spread to lots of other places as you've noted. 

 

I wouldn't say that the vast majority of restaurants do this because Bangkok is a huge place and they don't do it in "normal" Thai restaurants. However it is quite common in places like Sukhumvit and Silom. 

 

I too despise the practice however there's sweet FA that I can do about it so you just have to suck it up and either pay the extra 17.7% or stick to restaurants that don't try to trick their customers.

 

 

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, LukKrueng said:

Not really. Might be regulations. In the travel industry in Thailand there is a separation between airline tickets and ground services (hotel, tours) and not allowed (or at least wasn't allowed in the past) to issue 1 invoice for both tours and tickets due to the different was VAT is calculated. 

Places can include VAT in prices, you don't do that?

[Patong2021]

On 9/20/2024 at 3:52 AM, Dirk Z said:

In most European countries prices for goods must be shown as what they actually are. No surprises when the bill arrives. In many Thai establishments, in Bangkok even the vast majority, there are prices on menus that change according to the small print at the bottom: "10% service charge and 7% VAT will be added."

Since this is a fixed increase it is hard to understand why the prices cannot already be shown as the final amount needed to pay, instead of everyone having tho make the the calculation themselves or getting an unpleasant surprise when the bill comes up.

Although the prices seem lower, there is unpleasantness in the end, so I don't see the upside of this way of presenting a menu. Or can anyone enlighten me?

 

You have a valid point. The failure to be transparent is also found in USA, Canada and the sections of Mexico that cater to  Canada/USA  tourists.  Years ago, the airlines used to do similar advertising their cheap airfares and then adding service fees and taxes. The laws changed to force them to  be all inclusive in their pricing. No one complained then.

It is deceitful not to show the full price.

[bradiston]

26 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

 

You have a valid point. The failure to be transparent is also found in USA, Canada and the sections of Mexico that cater to  Canada/USA  tourists.  Years ago, the airlines used to do similar advertising their cheap airfares and then adding service fees and taxes. The laws changed to force them to  be all inclusive in their pricing. No one complained then.

It is deceitful not to show the full price.

They show the full price, but it includes layer upon layer of extras. What would you rather have? To see what you're really paying for, or just sign on the dotted line for whatever they've added? Agoda is the same. Displays a price then adds a whole host of local taxes etc etc.

[KhunBENQ]

Mama's noodle stand shows final prices.

Also supermarkets, chain restaurants, home stores etc.
 

This 10+7 is a typical hiso attitude.

Leaning to the American way of life.

 

Domestic airlines much worse.

Prices can easily double from advertised.

AirAisia, Lion, Nok ... name them.

Just a trick to get on top of the list, in-transparent prices.

 

For Agoda absolute standard. When I see their prices I add 20% because it's easier to calculate mentally.

 

[KhunBENQ]

On 9/20/2024 at 3:32 PM, Bill97 said:

Go back to Europe Dirk,  there is much worse here that will knock you off your feet 

The typical AN answer for all criticism on Thailand affairs.

Save it for yourself.

[KhunBENQ]

On 9/20/2024 at 3:16 PM, MalcolmB said:

VAT registered businesses can offset the VAT paid against their on VAT with their tax return. Not every business is VAT registered so it is to let you know.

And you think that Makro, Lotus, Pizza Comp, 7/11, MK, TOPS, Robinson, .... are not "VAT registered"???

[BigStar]

19 minutes ago, KhunBENQ said:

Leaning to the American way of life.

 

 

VAT and fixed service charges are more of a European way of life, though we'll take any opportunity to try to blame Americans. I was strongly admonished so many years ago at a swank Swiss resto in the States. I'd assumed a service charge, in a hurry to get my date into bed, and I didn't leave a tip. The waiter ran after me to inform me that "this isn't Europe."

[BigStar]

2 hours ago, Lemsta69 said:

I ate mostly at "budget" places and just assumed that the practice was exclusive to "higher end" places that I couldn't afford 😂

 

Yup.

 

2 hours ago, Lemsta69 said:

I've noticed that the ++ in Bangkok isn't limited to the fancy hotel chains, it has spread to lots of other places as you've noted. 

 

Computer tech has progressed in Thailand and the taxman is reaching into more pockets. The forum has taken strong notice, actually.

 

[Lemsta69]

24 minutes ago, BigStar said:

 

Yup.

 

 

Computer tech has progressed in Thailand and the taxman is reaching into more pockets. The forum has taken strong notice, actually.

 

 

Computer tech and the taxman. Yeah right. I guess you've never looked too closely at a 7-Eleven receipt.

[BigStar]

8 minutes ago, Lemsta69 said:

 

Computer tech and the taxman. Yeah right. I guess you've never looked too closely at a 7-Eleven receipt.

 

Different sort of business. Is there a service charge, or how much do you tip?

[proton]

21 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

 

 

I think you are more or less right.

 

Thailand never used to have a tipping culture at all, now it is everywhere, even tip tins on the counters at hotel receptions and in the space between front and back of taxis.

 

Some parts of Thai culture have always had a tipping culture, but it's  getting a bit out of hand. This singer got over 4 million in tips in a week a couple of months ago, these are all 500 and 1000 baht notes.