Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

LivinLOS · July 29

5 hours ago, sirineou said:

They better get their act together we only have 5 months remaining in the Year I am transfering funds to Thailand that I don't even know how they will taxed, or even if they will be taxed at all. My next door neighbor wants to sell the lot next to our house. I would love to buy it. But I an afraid to transfer the funds, because I don't know how it will be taxed. Once again they are shooting themselves on the foot.

You can gift your wife 20 million per year.. tax free...

Send it to her if she would be buying the land.

sometimewoodworker · July 29

5 hours ago, sirineou said:

They better get their act together we only have 5 months remaining in the Year I am transfering funds to Thailand that I don't even know how they will taxed, or even if they will be taxed at all. My next door neighbor wants to sell the lot next to our house. I would love to buy it. But I an afraid to transfer the funds, because I don't know how it will be taxed. Once again they are shooting themselves on the foot.

The confusion is almost certainly yours.

the rules are reasonably clear, you seem to have a situation where you can profit from professional advice. The majority of uncertainty comes from people not knowing how a certain source of funds are categorised. Also not understanding how the DTA of their countries are implemented and how they are different from other DTAs.

It is a case where there are several different sets of rules that apply.

home countries tax (if any)

home countries DTA

Thailand’s rules on what is income (almost certainly different from your home countries rules)

Thailand’s rules on what is exempt

Thailand’s rules On how home countries tax paid effects Thai tax due

Thailand’s rules on available allowances

None of the above are rocket science but there are so many that all influence each other that unless you are working with Thai tax and foreign filling you may well make mistakes.

Phulublub · July 29

4 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Pensions 100% not, I used to supply SIPP pensions from a previous business and the process is file a P85, obtain an NT tax code, do not get taxed at source.

The only caveat for the UK is armed forces pensions and some senior civil servants which ARE always taxed at source.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/tax-when-you-live-abroad#

Your quote is specifically about the UK State Pension which, I agree, is not taxed in the UK if you are non-tax resident. Other pensions ARE taxed in the UK. That they may not be taxed at source if you file a P85 is not the issue - there is still a tax liability.

PH

LivinLOS · July 29

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

A government pension is remitted, and under most DTA's not assessable.

Many, even most Gov pensions (western) are assessable..

N Americans are not in that.

LivinLOS · July 29

2 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Your quote is specifically about the UK State Pension which, I agree, is not taxed in the UK if you are non-tax resident. Other pensions ARE taxed in the UK. That they may not be taxed at source if you file a P85 is not the issue - there is still a tax liability.

PH

Private pensions absolutely should not be taxed at source in UK.

What pensions are you claiming are UK taxable for a non resident ?

Phulublub · July 29

10 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Private pensions absolutely should not be taxed at source in UK.

What pensions are you claiming are UK taxable for a non resident ?

"Taxed at source" and "UK taxable" are two completely different things!!

As i linked earlier:

https://www.gov.uk/tax-uk-income-live-abroad

You usually have to pay tax on your UK income even if you’re not a UK resident. Income includes things like:

pension
rental income
savings interest
wages

(not State Pension though - see the link for further details)

PH

Edited July 29 by Phulublub

sirineou · July 29

34 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The confusion is almost certainly yours.

the rules are reasonably clear, you seem to have a situation where you can profit from professional advice. The majority of uncertainty comes from people not knowing how a certain source of funds are categorised. Also not understanding how the DTA of their countries are implemented and how they are different from other DTAs.

It is a case where there are several different sets of rules that apply.

home countries tax (if any)

home countries DTA

Thailand’s rules on what is income (almost certainly different from your home countries rules)

Thailand’s rules on what is exempt

Thailand’s rules On how home countries tax paid effects Thai tax due

Thailand’s rules on available allowances

None of the above are rocket science but there are so many that all influence each other that unless you are working with Thai tax and foreign filling you may well make mistakes.

I am very well familiar with the DTA Agreement between the US and Thailand, and I have read the pda agreement, but it is written in legalese and unclear as to what applies or how Thailand will implement that Agreement.

I have read several Thai brochures and and IMO they are as clear as mud.

for Instance my understanding of the DTA. says that Governmental pensions, social security and other pensions are taxed in their country of Origin. They are called non assessable income.

Is My Union Pension only taxed in the US?

I comfortably live on my SSI income , and save my Union pension. Are these savings assessable .

IF your assessable income falls below a certain level I think you dont have to file a tax return. and if my understanding of the DTA is correct since all of the income I transfer to Thailand is non assessable,and I don't have to file a tax return, how do they know that all of my income is non assessable?

before 2024 I sold several pieces of property in the US and have a substantial amount of income in CDs and Treasuries. How s that handled ? Is the interest of such non assessable investments taxable in Thailand.

can I only transfer an amount equal to my SSI income and subsidise this from Savings earned before 2024 for the rest of my life here.

Or are transfers from savings earned before 2024 0nly non taxable when transferred to Thailand for the first Year. or in perpetuity.

I will tell you this , aside from my American passport I have a Greek EEU passport.One of the reasons why we moved here instead of Greece it was the same tax complexity and bureaucracy , In my retirement I want easy. Personally I like it much better in Greece, I speak some of the language, most of the people speak english, and then we have the magnificence of the Greek Islands the mainland I that is understated by mosT people, season, some skiing , the food, but I am not sure how my Thai wife will do there. and If I was to pass away, she will have to come back to Thailand or go to the US, i don't think she will stay there on her own.

Anyway I will wait to see how this thing works out, for most of us it is probably a tempest in a tea cup. But if they make me jump through too many hurdles I am out of here.

sirineou · July 29

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

You can gift your wife 20 million per year.. tax free...

Send it to her if she would be buying the land.

20 million is a lot of money for Thailand (more than half a million USD) I cant believe that this is true and per year. Do you have a link to some place where that information is listed.

I found something "Gift tax rates in Thailand are structured to favor transfers to direct relatives. For gifts to ascendants, descendants, or spouses, the tax-free threshold is 20 million baht per year to a single recipient, with a tax rate of 5% applied to amounts exceeding this threshold. "

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/gift-tax-2024/#:~:text=Gift tax rates in Thailand,to amounts exceeding this threshold.

NoDisplayName · July 29

7 hours ago, sirineou said:

They better get their act together we only have 5 months remaining in the Year I am transfering funds to Thailand that I don't even know how they will taxed, or even if they will be taxed at all. My next door neighbor wants to sell the lot next to our house. I would love to buy it. But I an afraid to transfer the funds, because I don't know how it will be taxed. Once again they are shooting themselves on the foot.

What if you pay the seller directly via SWIFT or Wise? They are selling the property, they are realizing capital gains, the money is going into their account, they are paying some form of sales tax.

How is this accounted for in terms of remittances if the money never passes through your (or wife's) accounts?

Lorry · July 29

29 minutes ago, sirineou said:

20 million is a lot of money for Thailand (more than half a million USD) I cant believe that this is true and per year. Do you have a link to some place where that information is listed.

I found something "Gift tax rates in Thailand are structured to favor transfers to direct relatives. For gifts to ascendants, descendants, or spouses, the tax-free threshold is 20 million baht per year to a single recipient, with a tax rate of 5% applied to amounts exceeding this threshold. "

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/gift-tax-2024/#:~:text=Gift tax rates in Thailand,to amounts exceeding this threshold.

This is written in the RC. Read it.

It has been mentioned, explained and discussed in the tax thread 113 times.

sirineou · July 29

29 minutes ago, Lorry said:

This is written in the RC. Read it.

It has been mentioned, explained and discussed in the tax thread 113 times.

Very hard to foLlow the Thread , a lot of good information buried under an avalanche of bickering . But it's good to know, though I think this loophole will be closed otherwise it would make this whole tax endeavour moot. Why then wouldn't everyone simply gift the money they transfer to their wife. (assuming of course they are married) I don't see the money anyway. :laugh:

sirineou · July 29

37 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

What if you pay the seller directly via SWIFT or Wise? They are selling the property, they are realizing capital gains, the money is going into their account, they are paying some form of sales tax.

How is this accounted for in terms of remittances if the money never passes through your (or wife's) accounts?

So many questions so few answers. This is exactly my complain. IMO it will be a cluster <deleted> the first year. I Realy don't want to go anywhere else , I am settled here, our house has been built 10 years now, and paid for, I have it set up just the way I want it, as many of use have, our car is paid form we pretty much have everything we deed. Who wants to start moving to other countries, learning the systems , starting a new household, getting cars and drivers licences.

we will see.

I think there might be a new industry of accountants for farangs.

Lorry · July 29

11 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Very hard to foLlow the Thread , a lot of good information buried under an avalanche of bickering . But it's good to know, though I think this loophole will be closed otherwise it would make this whole tax endeavour moot. Why then wouldn't everyone simply gift the money they transfer to their wife. (assuming of course they are married) I don't see the money anyway.

It's not the easy solution for everybody who is married:

It should be a real gift - not a "gift" she just gives back to you.

Read up on it in the pinned tax guide, you should be able to find it.

It's not easy to change it because it protects the wealth of the rich Thai families.

Lorry · July 29

55 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

How is this accounted for in terms of remittances if the money never passes through your (or wife's) accounts?

Very probable still a taxable remittance. I would not do it, smacks of tax evasion.

A summary of the discussion is in

NoDisplayName · July 29

8 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Very probable still a taxable remittance. I would not do it, smacks of tax evasion.

I'm sure it's been discussed on the other threads, with no conclusive findings. Not recommending the action, asking where that falls under remittance rules.

If I book a hotel in Thailand, or buy a computer, or buy Thai health insurance, or put tires on the pickup, and pay by foreign credit card .....those would all be considered taxable remittances?

TroubleandGrumpy · July 29

4 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Yes, I was going to post a general reply and have stated before been to my local tax office 3 times to try and establish what is happening and needless to say they have no clue on the overall situation on this policy and you would have seen all the differing experts all saying different things.
Yes, it appears the present Government and the Revenue do not understand it either but people suggesting forms will be available in November/December if and when this is true.
It also appears and this is not unusual the Government seem to be divided on this issue.

I have spoken to a few Thai friends who indeed file a tax form and they do not understand it either.
This PM might not survive in August but also listened to a Thai lawyer and a Thai interviewer speaking in English, just yesterday Sunday and trying to clarify things and noticed the lawyer often smiling (smirking?) as if there are far wider issues.
Also, they have find the 10k wallet giveaway and where is this money coming from?
Yes, and should be from the filthy rich both ex-pats and Thais but no they are not being targeted and the same the world over.

Mike Lister and a few others have been very helpful but it seems that everyone agrees and we should wait (how long ?) for official announcements and not do anything but do our own calculations.
Thoughts?
Yes, indeed we are on page 47 already on this part 11.
What to do just sit back but in time it will be clearer as if lol

Finally, most of us only have no tax or very little tax approx 3k at most while trying to look after our wonderful Thai families and yes hare enough on frozen state pensions and the like.

I have done the numbers for Aussies and provided my thoughts - just focused on Aussies though (7k to 12K Baht for some).

Phulublub · July 29

8 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I'm sure it's been discussed on the other threads, with no conclusive findings. Not recommending the action, asking where that falls under remittance rules.

If I book a hotel in Thailand, or buy a computer, or buy Thai health insurance, or put tires on the pickup, and pay by foreign credit card .....those would all be considered taxable remittances?

Yes. Whether the system can track and trace all such remittances is besides the point; as has also been said, it is a Self Assessment system where it is up to the individual to report all their income (remittances for most of us). Failure to do so is evasion which, if caught, would result in hefty punishment.

PH

Yumthai · July 29

4 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Failure to do so is evasion which, if caught, would result in hefty punishment.

"Laws without enforced consequences are merely suggestions."

UKresonant · July 29

3 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Pensions 100% not, I used to supply SIPP pensions from a previous business and the process is file a P85, obtain an NT tax code, do not get taxed at source.

The only caveat for the UK is armed forces pensions and some senior civil servants which ARE always taxed at source.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/tax-when-you-live-abroad#

Default position is that you cannot get an NT tax code for normally taxed at source pensions in the UK, Gov pensions or otherwise (when tax resident in Thailand)

DT Digest 2018, and form DT-Individual, note this.

(HMRC do have some discretion, but not the norm)

Klonko · July 29

24 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I'm sure it's been discussed on the other threads, with no conclusive findings. Not recommending the action, asking where that falls under remittance rules.

If I book a hotel in Thailand, or buy a computer, or buy Thai health insurance, or put tires on the pickup, and pay by foreign credit card .....those would all be considered taxable remittances?

It is taxable remittance, but enforceability is another question. If you book an international return flight departing from Thailand with your foreign credit card, at least the expense for the outbound flight is tax assessable income. I would argue that if the return flight is departing outside of Thailand, that the expense for the flight leaving Thailand is also tax assessable income. Therefore, I have one foreign credit card debited to my foreign income account for expenses outside of Thailand, and another foreign credit card debited to my foreign (non interest bearing) savings account as secondary source (next to my Thai account and credit card) for larger expenses in Thailand such as the costly three annual return flight tickets.

Edited July 29 by Klonko

Lorry · July 29

17 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I'm sure it's been discussed on the other threads, with no conclusive findings. Not recommending the action, asking where that falls under remittance rules.

If I book a hotel in Thailand, or buy a computer, or buy Thai health insurance, or put tires on the pickup, and pay by foreign credit card .....those would all be considered taxable remittances?

Short answer: yes

Long answer: you are comingling 2 things.

1. Paying for goods and services in Thailand directly from your foreign account, eg by Swift.

I don't think anybody has ever claimed this would not be a taxable remittance. I am not 100% sure, though, and I don't have the time to dig it up in the text guide now.

2. Using a foreign credit (not debit) card at an ATM in Thailand or to buy good in services in Thailand.

TRD has said in one of the embassy videos (I think the French one) this is a taxable remittance.

Some posters disagree eg @JimGant: credit is not income.

Details with lots of arguments in the pinned tax guide.

dinga · July 29

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

20 million is a lot of money for Thailand (more than half a million USD) I cant believe that this is true and per year. Do you have a link to some place where that information is listed.

I found something "Gift tax rates in Thailand are structured to favor transfers to direct relatives. For gifts to ascendants, descendants, or spouses, the tax-free threshold is 20 million baht per year to a single recipient, with a tax rate of 5% applied to amounts exceeding this threshold. "

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/gift-tax-2024/#:~:text=Gift tax rates in Thailand,to amounts exceeding this threshold.

Just a word of caution - Under the Civil & Commercial Code, I understand property bought during a marriage carries joint ownership (ie. 50:50 regardless of (a) the Chanote registration being in the name of only the Thai citizen; and (b) the Land Office required statement that the land is bought solely from funds 'owned' by the Thai national.

Don't think the TRD position on the eligibility of such a 'gift' has been determined at this stage - so it would be prudent to get professional advice before proceeding.

Mike Teavee · July 29

27 minutes ago, dinga said:

Just a word of caution - Under the Civil & Commercial Code, I understand property bought during a marriage carries joint ownership (ie. 50:50 regardless of (a) the Chanote registration being in the name of only the Thai citizen; and (b) the Land Office required statement that the land is bought solely from funds 'owned' by the Thai national.

Don't think the TRD position on the eligibility of such a 'gift' has been determined at this stage - so it would be prudent to get professional advice before proceeding.

Under Thai Law Gifts given to an individual are normally considered Sin Suan Tua (Personal Property) unless explicitly stated as joint (Sin Somros)...

https://thailand.acclime.com/guides/marital-property-assets/

The "Rub" comes in if a guy gives his partner a "Gift" & gets a benefit from it (E.g. Let's say I send my GF the years rent to pay then obviously I'm benefitting from it & it's not really a gift).

Edit: I do wonder, I send my GF 210K (I asked her to give up her job working in a Central mall so we could live together so 30K over what she was earning) & know that's ok but a mate of mine sends 10K pm to his wife's 2 kids back home & I'm thinking he could send her grandmother (who he sends the money to) 120K pa without it being taxable for anybody

Edited July 29 by Mike Teavee

sirineou · July 29

3 minutes ago, dinga said:

Just a word of caution - Under the Civil & Commercial Code, I understand property bought during a marriage carries joint ownership (ie. 50:50 regardless of (a) the Chanote registration being in the name of only the Thai citizen; and (b) the Land Office required statement that the land is bought solely from funds 'owned' by the Thai national.

Don't think the TRD position on the eligibility of such a 'gift' has been determined at this stage - so it would be prudent to get professional advice before proceeding.

Yes indeed, Thailand is a Community property country. Me and the wife have been married for close to 16 years, I lose count. I have nothing to worry about, she is honest to a fault. Neither one of us can imagine a life without the other.

Yes indeed, I will give it a year to see how all of this pays out. I also have misgivings about the gift thing,

Conceivably I can gift my wife a million dollars every two years, she could be a multimillionaire in a few years , I can't believe she would be living in Thailand a multimillionaire and not pay taxes.

We go to the US at least once a year, we would just stuff our pockets with the maximum allowable.And start charging everything on my Capitol one credit card that has no foreign transaction fees.

Lorry · July 29

37 minutes ago, sirineou said:

We go to the US at least once a year, we would just stuff our pockets with the maximum allowable

If you mean you bring cash to Thailand - that's a taxable remittance.

And the moneychangers do want to see your passport.

39 minutes ago, sirineou said:

And start charging everything on my Capitol one credit card that has no foreign transaction fees.

The TRD has said that using a foreign CC in Thailand is a taxable remittance.

Not easy to find out (at the moment)

Getting professional advice about the gift route sounds much better

stat · July 29

13 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

As mentioned, when I used to receive Dividends (from FTSE 100 companies) in the form of a Cheque they would come as a Dividend "Warrant" that showed how much "Tax had been Paid" but I now believe this to be by the Company & not the Individual so not relevant to Thai Tax discussions...

https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095723779#

Thanks to all for the discussion, I think remitting Dividend Income is off the table for me now unless I'm Non (Thai) Tax Resident or manage to get an LTR visa 😞

Thanks! You are on to smomething as it is always important to look at both the taxes paid by the company and also the taxes the individual has to pay before investing. UK shares have the big benefit (vs for example german 26.3% or US shares 15% which incur withholding tax) that they incur no withholding tax, which is great when you are thai tax resident or no resident at all.

stat · July 29

23 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

No, I have filed an NRL (Non Resident Landlord) but when I 1st became Non-Tax Resident I still owned my own company in the UK & planned to return after a couple of years Plus My accountant always seems to make it so I don't pay any tax so never seriously looked into it.

Will be a different story when my Pensions kick in so should probably start to look into it, any pointers/links for where to get more information.

NB doesn't affect withheld tax on dividends anyway as this is never reclaimable irrespective of your Tax code.

I beg to differ you can reclaim some witholding taxes at least a part of it. Example: If you get a German dividend you pay 26.375% withholding tax on in. You can get it reduced to 15% afterwards if you know how to do it by filing a kind of tax declaration to the German IRS.

Mike Teavee · July 29

Just now, stat said:

I beg to differ you can reclaim some witholding taxes at least a part of it. Example: If you get a German dividend you pay 26.375% withholding tax on in. You can get it reduced to 15% afterwards if you know how to do it by filing a kind of tax declaration to the German IRS.

As we ended up in the discussion, the "WithHeld" tax is for the company not the individual & even as the owner of a company my accountant was very clear that I could not reclaim that tax.

stat · July 29

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

As we ended up in the discussion, the "WithHeld" tax is for the company not the individual & even as the owner of a company my accountant was very clear that I could not reclaim that tax.

I beg to differ again. The withholding tax is paid by the individual and NOT the company. Example if you live in a country with no dba with the us you pay a higher withholding tax as if you were living in a country with a dba with the us (15% in that case). That is what the w8-Ben is made for. Your accountant maybe be refering to a specific case or he has not a full understanding of witholding tax, sorry to say. It can be very complicated to do withholding tax reclaim in some cases next to impossible.

Example:

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/mi/research-analysis/the-path-to-unlocking-unclaimed-withholding-tax-reclaims.html

sometimewoodworker · July 29

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

for Instance my understanding of the DTA. says that Governmental pensions, social security and other pensions are taxed in their country of Origin. They are called non assessable income.

Is My Union Pension only taxed in the US?

I comfortably live on my SSI income , and save my Union pension. Are these savings assessable .

You need to ask these to somebody who understands the USA DTA, I only know that SS pensions are exempt, I suspect that most other pensions are assessable if transferred, but you need someone who is conversant with the USA DTA as it seems unclear that you know it well enough.

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

Is My Union Pension only taxed in the US?

Probably not.

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

I comfortably live on my SSI income , and save my Union pension. Are these savings assessable .

Only if transferrer to Thailand

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

IF your assessable income falls below a certain level I think you dont have to file a tax return.

Correct

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

how do they know that all of my income is non assessable?

You decide if it is assessable. It is possible that you will be audited (extremely unlikely but possible). At that point you will have to prove that your decisions are correct.

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

before 2024 I sold several pieces of property in the US and have a substantial amount of income in CDs and Treasuries. How s that handled ? Is the interest of such non assessable investments taxable in Thailand.

The principle capital is non assessable until it has been exhausted.

interest earned before 1/1/2024 is excluded.

interest earned after 1/1/2024 and transferred to Thailand is assessable.

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

can I only transfer an amount equal to my SSI income and subsidise this from Savings earned before 2024 for the rest of my life here.

Or are transfers from savings earned before 2024 0nly non taxable when transferred to Thailand for the first Year. or in perpetuity.

This is poorly worded

SSI income and transferred to Thailand Is exempt

all money accrued before 1/1/2024 and transferred to Thailand is excluded.

There is no time limit to this exemption

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

Anyway I will wait to see how this thing works out, for most of us it is probably a tempest in a tea cup. But if they make me jump through too many hurdles I am out of here.

The “tempest in a tea cup” is likely correct.

The point is that it is you who decides if your money is assessable or not and if you should file a tax return or not. It is possible that you will be audited (extremely unlikely but possible). At that point you will have to prove that your decisions are correct.

it is almost certain that you will benefit from a conversation with an expert on the Thai and USA situation. It is almost certain that if you have your USA finances well organised and your funds are not commingled that you will be able to remit enough funds both excluded and assessable that will be below the threshold for tax, you can probably transfer upwards of 1.5 million annually with zero tax liability. However you need advice on the way to structure your finances to avoid taxation

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