Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[chiang mai]

14 minutes ago, shdmn said:

The question is what is considered remitted.  Some tax professionals seem to think that ATM withdrawals from a non-Thai bank account are not considered remitted.  I think it would be rather difficult for them to try track and enforce that as well, so they may not even bother trying.

This is not about the difficulty of enforcement, it's solely about whether it is assessable or not. 

 

As I said at the outset, there is little consensus on any aspect of Thai tax so different people will have different opinions, I have given you mine.

[Yumthai]

10 hours ago, ballpoint said:

With the new directive, I can well see each TRD office being given a target to look at a certain number of tax residents in their districts/areas.

Tax residents they are aware of, i.e. people who hold a Thai TIN.

[chiang mai]

10 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Yet, Britain has a very similar set of deductions for rental property taxation as the US, which makes the advice/observations given that Thai deductions of 30% (gross) apply on foreign remitted rental incomes,  equally invalid and assumptive.

 

These type of statements, including ones like the below, are simply opinion, and not based on any established facts or professional accountancy advice:

 

It was discussed a long time ago that any rental income that is remitted to Thailand would be considered gross of all home country deductions which would be replaced by the 30% Thai standard deduction, or, if actual expenses were greater and all receipts were available, the greater amount

 

Which of the following are not facts:

 

There is only one TRD Code whose rules apply equally to everyone.

 

Thailand Revenue has no interest in knowing what deductions were made from overseas funds, prior to them being remitted to Thailand. TRD is only interested in knowing whether remitted funds are assessable income and of what category.

 

The TRD Code defines income in eight different categories that do not distinguish between overseas and domestic income.

 

Property rental income is defined as Category 5 income, it permits a standard deduction equal to 30% of gross rental income, or, if actual expenses are greater than 30%, the sum of actual expenses provided receipts are available.

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-income-tax-in-thailand.html

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

“It was discussed a long time ago that any rental income that is remitted to Thailand would be considered gross of all home country deductions/expenses which would be replaced by the 30% Thai standard deduction, or, if actual expenses were greater and all receipts were available, the greater amount, per the TRD Code”.

 

For example, gross rental income might expect to be reduced by agent fees, local taxes, cost of repairs etc. For Thai assessable income purposes, the amount of rental income remitted to Thailand is presumed to be gross and not to have been reduced by the value of those deductions/expenses.

[anrcaccount]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

Which of the following are not facts:

 

There is only one TRD Code whose rules apply equally to everyone.

 

Thailand Revenue has no interest in knowing what deductions were made from overseas funds, prior to them being remitted to Thailand. TRD is only interested in knowing whether remitted funds are assessable income and of what category.

 

The TRD Code defines income in eight different categories that do not distinguish between overseas and domestic income.

 

Property rental income is defined as Category 5 income, it permits a standard deduction equal to 30% of gross rental income, or, if actual expenses are greater than 30%, the sum of actual expenses provided receipts are available.

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-income-tax-in-thailand.html

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

“It was discussed a long time ago that any rental income that is remitted to Thailand would be considered gross of all home country deductions/expenses which would be replaced by the 30% Thai standard deduction, or, if actual expenses were greater and all receipts were available, the greater amount, per the TRD Code”.

 

For example, gross rental income might expect to be reduced by agent fees, local taxes, cost of repairs etc. For Thai assessable income purposes, the amount of rental income remitted to Thailand is presumed to be gross and not to have been reduced by the value of those deductions/expenses.

 

OK.

 

Seems difficult to apply your wording to reality.  Let's try an example to see if I am understanding your opinion on this: 

 

Foreign gross rental income - 20000

Foreign expenses deducted ( e.g. agent fees, maintenance, interest on mortgage, etc) - 10000

Net before tax - 10000

Tax paid in foreign country - 2000

Remaining- 8000 

 

8000 is then remitted to Thailand.  

How would you see that the TRD computes the assessable income, deductions, and tax credits (assume dta)  in this scenario?

 

 

[chiang mai]

9 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

OK.

 

Seems difficult to apply your wording to reality.  Let's try an example to see if I am understanding your opinion on this: 

 

Foreign gross rental income - 20000

Foreign expenses deducted ( e.g. agent fees, maintenance, interest on mortgage, etc) - 10000

Net before tax - 10000

Tax paid in foreign country - 2000

Remaining- 8000 

 

8000 is then remitted to Thailand.  

How would you see that the TRD computes the assessable income, deductions, and tax credits (assume dta)  in this scenario?

 

 

What I wrote is very straight forward and uncomplicated,

 

which parts of it do you believe are not factual?

[oldcpu]

On 10/1/2024 at 8:00 AM, Mike Teavee said:

Edit2: And LTR holders requirements at 49:08 (Interesting that LTR holders follow the previous rules so are still liable for Tax if they bring the income into Thailand in the same year that it was earned). 

 

Hopefully, for those on an LTR visa, that the BoI statement in their marketing of the LTR visa, which on the BOI web site states: "Tax exemption for overseas income" is hopefully proven correct.

 

There is a lot of debate about this in the LTR visa thread, and some on that thread are even saying (speculating is likely a better word) the opposite of the Expat Thailand statement based on their interpretation of Royal Decree 743 (which authorizes the LTR visa), ... where those with a different view claim that money (from the income of an LTR visa holder) is not taxable if it is brought into Thailand in the year it is earned, but money from previous years (after 1-Jan-2024) will be taxable.  I am NOT one with that opinion.

 

An unofficial translation of the Royal Decree for the LTR visa for Wealthy Pensioner and Wealthy Global citizen category reads:

" Section 5 income tax under Part 2 of Chapter 3 in Title 2 of the Revenue Code shall be exempted for a foreigner categorized as a Wealthy Global Citizen, Wealthy Pensioner, or Work-from-Thailand-Professional who is granted a LTR Visa under immigration law for assessable income under section 40 of the Revenue Code derived in the previous tax year from an employment, or from a business carried on abroad, or from a property situated and brought into Thailand."

 

Note that translation states the tax of assessable income from the previous year is (tax) exempt. It does not state the income is not assessable.  So if income is assessable, it may be necessary to file a tax return, dependent on how one reads such.

 

Further, a tax return is typically filed for income of the previous year, and NOT filed for income of the current year (CLEARLY NO ONE one files a tax return for income of the current year as the current year is not yet over), so I believe that adds further lack of clarity.

 

To say there is some uncertainty here would be IMHO a very accurate description.

 

I find the "Expat Thailand" claim quoted interesting but I do not believe it dispels the confusion (rather it just adds to the confusion), as it provides no basis for their video statement other than that statement that is the interpretation of the "Expat Thailand" representative talking in the video.

Edited yesterday at 06:21 AM by oldcpu

[oldcpu]

5 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Tax residents they are aware of, i.e. people who hold a Thai TIN.

 

I suspect there is a growing concern among many, that those who Thai immigration are able to determine spent >180 days in Thailand in a given calendar year, could be flagged as possible tax residents and that information could be passed to the Thai RD. 

 

Clearly that is speculation, but it is not unheard of for immigration to have communication with the Thai RD.  If there is such a communication, then the "Tax residents the RD are aware of" could be more than just those who hold a Thai TIN.

 

I believe this is an aspect many of us will be observing to see how it all plays out in the coming few years.

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

OK.

 

Seems difficult to apply your wording to reality.  Let's try an example to see if I am understanding your opinion on this: 

 

Foreign gross rental income - 20000

Foreign expenses deducted ( e.g. agent fees, maintenance, interest on mortgage, etc) - 10000

Net before tax - 10000

Tax paid in foreign country - 2000

Remaining- 8000 

 

8000 is then remitted to Thailand.  

How would you see that the TRD computes the assessable income, deductions, and tax credits (assume dta)  in this scenario?

 

As I understand it you would either use the remitted value & not try to offset any expenses incurred in Thailand (I.E. Would be £8,000 from which you can claim a tax credit against the £2,000 tax you've already paid) OR you would pro-rata the Gross Income/Tax & claim 30% of the (Receipted) expenses in Thailand, something like:-

• Gross Income £20,000
• Amount Remitted £8,000
• Tax credit = £8,000/£20,000 * £2,000 = £800
• Expenses claimable = 30% of £10,000 = £3,000. *I'm not aware of any upper limit to the expense reclaimable.

 

Edit: As I'm using UK as an example it's worth mentioning that you cannot claim Mortgage interest as an expense in the UK, have no idea whether it would be an allowable expense in Thailand if you were using US as an example.

 

Edited yesterday at 07:24 AM by Mike Teavee

[nrasmussen]

8 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Tax residents they are aware of, i.e. people who hold a Thai TIN.

 

Having a TIN does not make one a resident for tax purposes; staying in the country for an accumulated 180+ days in a calendar year does.

[stat]

15 hours ago, shdmn said:

So what is the current consensus on ATM withdrawals from non-Thai bank accounts?  Taxable, not taxable, depends on the phases of the moon?

Anyway only the gain or income part is taxable on the withdrawal. So if you transfer 200K USD from a loss making trade the tax rate is supposedly zero if TRD accepts your paper work. Same for funds from before 2024 etc or income that has already been taxed.

[stat]

11 hours ago, chiang mai said:

This is not about the difficulty of enforcement, it's solely about whether it is assessable or not. 

 

As I said at the outset, there is little consensus on any aspect of Thai tax so different people will have different opinions, I have given you mine.

This forum is also about the real life impacts of the new law and in the real world there might be a big difference. It could even happen that they deem ATM withdrawals tax free in principal or turn a blind eye like they did with the income remitted in the same year clause. I never heard of any tax audit that checked if really the income was from another year.

Edited 23 hours ago by stat

[anrcaccount]

5 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

As I understand it you would either use the remitted value & not try to offset any expenses incurred in Thailand (I.E. Would be £8,000 from which you can claim a tax credit against the £2,000 tax you've already paid) OR you would pro-rata the Gross Income/Tax & claim 30% of the (Receipted) expenses in Thailand, something like:-

• Gross Income £20,000
• Amount Remitted £8,000
• Tax credit = £8,000/£20,000 * £2,000 = £800
• Expenses claimable = 30% of £10,000 = £3,000. *I'm not aware of any upper limit to the expense reclaimable.

Thanks Mike, a useful response.

 

Can I just point out a few things that highlight the difficulty, complexity and lack of clarity present, (in what may be) - trying to apply existing regulations, that are designed for Thai sourced income to foreign income.

 

So, maybe, you can just use the remitted (net) value, and then 'not try to' offset any expenses incurred in Thailand ( of which, of course,  there are none,  for foreign rental income) .

 

Or , you can use some kind of calculation as you've attempted, where you use the gross income and claim a portion of receipted expenses in Thailand ( again, none of these expense have been incurred in Thailand)

 

Or, maybe, you can deduct an additional 30% off the net remittance? Who knows, while that seems unlikely, it is no more implausible than the other scenarios.

 

The only thing that’s clear is - the funds you have remitted to Thailand are already, in reality, net of deductions in a foreign country. The deductions have been spent on the property, and the net is the subject of the remittance. 

 

5 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Edit: As I'm using UK as an example it's worth mentioning that you cannot claim Mortgage interest as an expense in the UK, have no idea whether it would be an allowable expense in Thailand if you were using US as an example.

 

This point is very valid and again highlights the complexity and uncertainty, again.

 

Where are the permitted deductions for Thai investment rental income listed? Is mortgage interest one of them (there is a blanket 100,000 deduction available for ‘residence mortgage interest’, does this include foreign investment property ?)  Surely, this is fundamental, basic information for any Thai who owns property ( on or offshore), but it would appear that these scenarios are not well known.

 

These type of questions, show why many major tax firms believe taxation of foreign source income is practically impossible in Thailand via referring to existing legislation ( that is not designed or written for foreign remittance scenarios) , and significant overhaul and time, will be required before this can be applied, in practice.  

[Lorry]

6 hours ago, stat said:

I never heard of any tax audit that checked if really the income was from another year.

Then you have not read this tax carefully.  It was mentioned

[Dan SG]

16 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

Hopefully, for those on an LTR visa, that the BoI statement in their marketing of the LTR visa, which on the BOI web site states: "Tax exemption for overseas income" is hopefully proven correct.

 

There is a lot of debate about this in the LTR visa thread, and some on that thread are even saying (speculating is likely a better word) the opposite of the Expat Thailand statement based on their interpretation of Royal Decree 743 (which authorizes the LTR visa), ... where those with a different view claim that money (from the income of an LTR visa holder) is not taxable if it is brought into Thailand in the year it is earned, but money from previous years (after 1-Jan-2024) will be taxable.  I am NOT one with that opinion.

 

An unofficial translation of the Royal Decree for the LTR visa for Wealthy Pensioner and Wealthy Global citizen category reads:

" Section 5 income tax under Part 2 of Chapter 3 in Title 2 of the Revenue Code shall be exempted for a foreigner categorized as a Wealthy Global Citizen, Wealthy Pensioner, or Work-from-Thailand-Professional who is granted a LTR Visa under immigration law for assessable income under section 40 of the Revenue Code derived in the previous tax year from an employment, or from a business carried on abroad, or from a property situated and brought into Thailand."

 

Note that translation states the tax of assessable income from the previous year is (tax) exempt. It does not state the income is not assessable.  So if income is assessable, it may be necessary to file a tax return, dependent on how one reads such.

 

Further, a tax return is typically filed for income of the previous year, and NOT filed for income of the current year (CLEARLY NO ONE one files a tax return for income of the current year as the current year is not yet over), so I believe that adds further lack of clarity.

 

To say there is some uncertainty here would be IMHO a very accurate description.

 

I find the "Expat Thailand" claim quoted interesting but I do not believe it dispels the confusion (rather it just adds to the confusion), as it provides no basis for their video statement other than that statement that is the interpretation of the "Expat Thailand" representative talking in the video.

Agree.  Basically, all they have done is preserve the old rule that income earned in a previous tax year and remitted in the current year is not subject to tax; that does not mean that income earned in current year and remitted in the current is not taxable.  You would think if someone has the funds to qualify for this visa they also have the funds to always be one year ahead of themselves in generating passive income.   What is not clear is how the rules would apply if they move to residence based taxation - in theory, the remittance rules should trump residency but we'll need to see how they draft the law - if they ever manage it.

[chiang mai]

16 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

OK.

 

Seems difficult to apply your wording to reality.  Let's try an example to see if I am understanding your opinion on this: 

 

Foreign gross rental income - 20000

Foreign expenses deducted ( e.g. agent fees, maintenance, interest on mortgage, etc) - 10000

Net before tax - 10000

Tax paid in foreign country - 2000

Remaining- 8000 

 

8000 is then remitted to Thailand.  

How would you see that the TRD computes the assessable income, deductions, and tax credits (assume dta)  in this scenario?

 

 

You have not responded to tell us which of my earlier statements are not factual, which judging from your most recent response to Mike, doesn't appear to be the issue any longer.

 

The statements I made are factual, it's just that you are skeptical and don't fully understand how the existing TRD Code can be applied to your overseas income. I don't fully understand why you don't think is can be applied to overseas earnings since many many Thai's will have been reporting overseas earnings in virtually all the income categories, probably for decades.

 

The fact remains, however, that not everything is as crystal clear as everyone would wish. Perhaps this is because the system is fairly new to us and we don't have  practical experience of it and everything is theoretical at this stage; perhaps it's because we compare the Thai system with the experiences from our home country tax system and conclude the Thai system is incomplete.

 

A more probable answer is that these discussions on tax are held in a vacuum, with virtually no Thai Tax expertise as input. That seems to be why all the  arguments for and against keep bouncing off the knowledge boundaries, with some of us saying that's all there is and interpreting what we have, whereas others like you are in disbelief and insist there must be more. I have to revert to the fact that Thai's have been reporting overseas income for years hence the balance of probability is that, these problems are about our/your comprehension and understanding rather than the system itself being uncapable of handling overseas income.

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

10 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

So, maybe, you can just use the remitted (net) value, and then 'not try to' offset any expenses incurred in Thailand ( of which, of course,  there are none,  for foreign rental income) .

Apologies I worded that part very badly, I was trying to say not claim any expenses you've incurred for your property so should have said something like "Not include any expenses you've incurred for the property on your Thai Tax Return"... 

 

10 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

This point is very valid and again highlights the complexity and uncertainty, again.

Agree which is why, even though I'm better off claiming my UK property expenses against Tax in Thailand, I wouldn't try to do it without professional assistance so will leave the money in the UK for now. 

 

[anrcaccount]

32 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You have not responded to tell us which of my earlier statements are not factual, which judging from your most recent response to Mike, doesn't appear to be the issue any longer.

 

The statements I made are factual, it's just that you are skeptical and don't fully understand how the existing TRD Code can be applied to your overseas income. I don't fully understand why you don't think is can be applied to overseas earnings since many many Thai's will have been reporting overseas earnings in virtually all the income categories, probably for decades.

 

I don't agree. I think Thais have relied on the following year remittance rule + lack of enforcement, and in the vast majority of cases, simply not reported foreign income in any categories.  

 

Here are the parts of your opinions I don't believe are factual:

 

Thailand Revenue has no interest in knowing what deductions were made from overseas funds, prior to them being remitted to Thailand. TRD is only interested in knowing whether remitted funds are assessable income and of what category.

 

If this was true, there would be no such thing as DTA's.........they're also interested in any tax paid in a foreign country on those remitted funds assuming a DTA.

 

“It was discussed a long time ago that any rental income that is remitted to Thailand would be considered gross of all home country deductions/expenses which would be replaced by the 30% Thai standard deduction, or, if actual expenses were greater and all receipts were available, the greater amount, per the TRD Code”.

 

For example, gross rental income might expect to be reduced by agent fees, local taxes, cost of repairs etc. For Thai assessable income purposes, the amount of rental income remitted to Thailand is presumed to be gross and not to have been reduced by the value of those deductions/expenses.

 

These statements are why I tried to give an example with worked figures, how would this example work under your 'facts' above? 

 

How can the amount of rental income remitted be considered gross, when it's already net of those deductions applied in the foreign country?  

 

And if it is considered gross, but then 'actual expenses were greater and all receipts were available....the greater amount"  was deducted, you'd arrive at the same figure as just remitting the net, right? 

 

Try to think about the practical application of something like this, User @JimGant tried to show you a practical example of this earlier in the thread. 

 

If you do see how remitting 'gross' foreign rental income and then applying Thai rental property deductions to it would work , please do share?

 

I'm not baiting here, I just cannot see how it logically would work, so if someone else can, great I'm all ears! 

 

32 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

The fact remains, however, that not everything is as crystal clear as everyone would wish. Perhaps this is because the system is fairly new to us and we don't have  practical experience of it and everything is theoretical at this stage; perhaps it's because we compare the Thai system with the experiences from our home country tax system and conclude the Thai system is incomplete.

 

This is fair enough, agree. 

 

32 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

 

I have to revert to the fact that Thai's have been reporting overseas income for years

 

That's not a fact, that's your assumption. 

 

[chiang mai]

47 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

I don't agree. I think Thais have relied on the following year remittance rule + lack of enforcement, and in the vast majority of cases, simply not reported foreign income in any categories.  

 

Here are the parts of your opinions I don't believe are factual:

 

Thailand Revenue has no interest in knowing what deductions were made from overseas funds, prior to them being remitted to Thailand. TRD is only interested in knowing whether remitted funds are assessable income and of what category.

 

If this was true, there would be no such thing as DTA's.........they're also interested in any tax paid in a foreign country on those remitted funds assuming a DTA.

 

“It was discussed a long time ago that any rental income that is remitted to Thailand would be considered gross of all home country deductions/expenses which would be replaced by the 30% Thai standard deduction, or, if actual expenses were greater and all receipts were available, the greater amount, per the TRD Code”.

 

For example, gross rental income might expect to be reduced by agent fees, local taxes, cost of repairs etc. For Thai assessable income purposes, the amount of rental income remitted to Thailand is presumed to be gross and not to have been reduced by the value of those deductions/expenses.

 

These statements are why I tried to give an example with worked figures, how would this example work under your 'facts' above? 

 

How can the amount of rental income remitted be considered gross, when it's already net of those deductions applied in the foreign country?  

 

And if it is considered gross, but then 'actual expenses were greater and all receipts were available....the greater amount"  was deducted, you'd arrive at the same figure as just remitting the net, right? 

 

Try to think about the practical application of something like this, User @JimGant tried to show you a practical example of this earlier in the thread. 

 

If you do see how remitting 'gross' foreign rental income and then applying Thai rental property deductions to it would work , please do share?

 

I'm not baiting here, I just cannot see how it logically would work, so if someone else can, great I'm all ears! 

 

 

This is fair enough, agree. 

 

 

That's not a fact, that's your assumption. 

 

Obviously the TRD is interested in home country deductions, if a DTA is invoked, but I have never mentioned DTA's or ever referred to them. I have zero interest in reading about DTA's especially US/Thai DTA's and filter them out because they don't concern me and I have no interest.

 

If you believe that Thai's have never reported overseas income on their tax returns and that the TRD Code doesn't cater to overseas income, you must think you are living in the Wild West, in which case I wonder why you're still here! I don't think you're baiting in what you wrote above, I just think you're naive and looking for the same level of support  and detail in Thailand that you might expect in your home country, and this aint Kansas! That level of detail exists somewhere, it's just that we don't know where or what it is.

 

As far as your examples are concerned and trying to convince you, I hope somebody else is willing AND capable of doing that. His inputs may be relevant and useful for you but I don't read anything by Gant any longer because he is 100% US centric and way out of his depth prescribing advice to non US citizens who are tax resident in Thailand and is incapable of being civil..

 

FWIW I have already calculated my rental income from the UK and the 30% standard deduction fits almost perfectly, for me, this year.

 

I earn 535 per month rental income on a retirement flat bolt hole which has a single expense of 96 for the Service Charge. I (could) remit 535 -96 to Thailand and that would be considered my gross rent which would be subject to a 30% deduction for expenses. For UK tax return purposes, 535 - 96 falls within the Personal Allowance and is not subject to tax. In fact, I only remit to Thailand a small part of that UK rental income, which also falls inside the TEDA limits hence is not taxable.

 

I hope those things help, bye.

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by chiang mai

[Yumthai]

16 hours ago, nrasmussen said:

On 10/3/2024 at 7:54 AM, Yumthai said:

Tax residents they are aware of, i.e. people who hold a Thai TIN.

 

Having a TIN does not make one a resident for tax purposes; staying in the country for an accumulated 180+ days in a calendar year does.

Indeed.

I meant, unlike Immigration, TRD is not aware of people who remain 180+ days / year in Thailand, but TRD sure knows people who have once filed and got a TIN (although they could be non tax resident at the time of checking).

 

 

[JimGant]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I (could) remit 535 -96 to Thailand and that would be considered my gross rent which would be subject to a 30% deduction for expenses.

Actually, as you've subtracted out your only expense on that rental income, what you've remitted is your net rental income -- and you'd be on the wrong side of integrity if you subtracted out a further 30% deduction for expenses. So, no, you haven't remitted gross rental income. But, what many of us have said here -- what is remitted to Thailand is what is  considered "gross taxable income" [gross, because it hasn't been reduced by standard deduction]. And taxable income is revenue minus expenses. And this is how you have to characterize cash flow remitted to Thailand -- it is an amount, not net of taxes, that both countries can use a baseline for their taxation purposes.

 

Quote

I have zero interest in reading about DTA's especially US/Thai DTA's and filter them out because they don't concern me and I have no interest.

Then, you have no reason to participate in a thread affecting expats. Jeez, it's your UK-Thai DTA that says Thailand has a secondary taxation right in your rental income. So how can you say you have no interest -- when what we're talking about is completely affected by the DTA?

[anrcaccount]

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

If you believe that Thai's have never reported overseas income on their tax returns and that the TRD Code doesn't cater to overseas income, you must think you are living in the Wild West, in which case I wonder why you're still here!

 

I do believe that almost all foreign income thais earned and remitted has never been reported on Thai tax returns.

 

I also believe the TRD code does not cater sufficiently to foreign income-  this view is shared by  major accounting  firms and business associations who have been lobbying the TRD since the new interpretations were released.

 

Yes, it is the Wild West in many respects,  and avoiding / evading tax is almost a national sport!

 

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

FWIW I have already calculated my rental income from the UK and the 30% standard deduction fits almost perfectly, for me, this year.

 

I earn 535 per month rental income on a retirement flat bolt hole which has a single expense of 96 for the Service Charge. I (could) remit 535 -96 to Thailand and that would be considered my gross rent which would be subject to a 30% deduction for expenses.

 

I don't believe you can do this. Lets assume firstly getting the Thai rental income deductions ( 30% or actual) is possible on foreign remitted rental income ( I am not certain of this yet). 

 

But assuming that is the case, you would need to remit the gross and then apply either deduction method. You are not remitting a gross amount, if you remit 535 -96.

 

There are  a multitude of more complex scenarios that will create issues unless the legislation is rewritten.  One of the biggest of these is, how to handle mortgage interest paid on a foreign rental property as a deduction. Many foreign property investors are highly leveraged. 

 

Right now, it looks that without legislation change it is impossible to logically apply those Thai deductions to remitted foreign rental income, if it is considered as truly gross. Either you remit only the net, and no Thai rental income deductions are possible, or the legislation is updated. 

 

 

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

26 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

I do believe that almost all foreign income thais earned and remitted has never been reported on Thai tax returns.

 

I also believe the TRD code does not cater sufficiently to foreign income-  this view is shared by  major accounting  firms and business associations who have been lobbying the TRD since the new interpretations were released.

 

Yes, it is the Wild West in many respects,  and avoiding / evading tax is almost a national sport!

 

 

I don't believe you can do this. Lets assume firstly getting the Thai rental income deductions ( 30% or actual) is possible on foreign remitted rental income ( I am not certain of this yet). 

 

But assuming that is the case, you would need to remit the gross and then apply either deduction method. You are not remitting a gross amount, if you remit 535 -96.

 

There are  a multitude of more complex scenarios that will create issues unless the legislation is rewritten.  One of the biggest of these is, how to handle mortgage interest paid on a foreign rental property as a deduction. Many foreign property investors are highly leveraged. 

 

Right now, it looks that without legislation change it is impossible to logically apply those Thai deductions to remitted foreign rental income, if it is considered as truly gross. Either you remit only the net, and no Thai rental income deductions are possible, or the legislation is updated. 

 

 

 

 

 

Why do you even begin to suggest that getting the 30% deduction for expenses on overseas rental income, may not be possible, did you read something to suggest it wasn't or is it just your mistrust and fear? If that were correct and the 30% deduction is not allowed, perhaps the 50% deduction on foreign pension payments is also not allowable and there is no tax relief on any remitted pension!!!

 

Regarding my rental income: even if I remit 535 to include the 96, the fact I am within TEDA and the remittance is only partial income is remitted, I remain on the safe side of the rules., 

[Presnock]

On 10/3/2024 at 2:31 AM, chiang mai said:

You've been told before that if you want professional Thai tax accountancy advice you'll have to go and and find a Thai tax consultant and pay for that advice because nobody on this forum is qualified under Thai law.

one can get a 15-minute free consultation from a tax man - "expattaxthailand.com".  They also have videos of previous  tax webinars and have a schedule for more including DTA's with Thailand.

[chiang mai]

27 minutes ago, Presnock said:

one can get a 15-minute free consultation from a tax man - "expattaxthailand.com".  They also have videos of previous  tax webinars and have a schedule for more including DTA's with Thailand.

Indeed. But some people don't think it's trustworthy. I do however know one person who consulted with a Big 4 company and judging from the information they fed back to me, it was a total waste of money and time. Which is why I think people should calm down and wait until we see what is announced later  in the year.

[Presnock]

Just now, chiang mai said:

Indeed. But some people don't think it's trustworthy. I do however know one person who consulted with a Big 4 company and judging from the information they fed back to me, it was a total waste of money and time. Which is why I think people should calm down and wait until we see what is announced later  in the year.

I agree with your assessment of the info that may be given to anyone by anyone related to the taxes until the final word from the Thai Revenue Dept is published in the Gazette.  ANy of us that make any kind of statement are only guessing.  We can read the RD rules about DTA but until the final assessment my the RD we are just guessing that we understand written English but the Thai interpretation of the same may be different.

[stat]

15 hours ago, Lorry said:

Then you have not read this tax carefully.  It was mentioned

Ok I stand to be corrected, can you or the OP pls elaborate on the circumstances why he was audited in the first place?

Edited 1 hour ago by stat

[chiang mai]

On a different aspect:

 

I started building my taxes spreadsheet last month so I will know in advance where I will end up at year end and have time to adjust things as necessary to minimize tax. My finances are fairly simple, three pensions from two countries, rental income, investments and savings. I file a UK and Thai return (or at least I may file a Thai return).

 

By mixing and matching my income sources, I can earn a decent amount of income each month but avoid any tax, at least I can the way the rules are written currently. The first nine months of the year are behind us so I have those actual numbers, the remaining three months are estimated and monitored. Somebody somewhere may get something useful out of this to help them better understand their tax situation or maybe even help provide some tips regarding strategy.

 

[ukrules]

44 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Which is why I think people should calm down and wait until we see what is announced later  in the year.

 

I expect they will release a new 'tax form' at some point, perhaps December, perhaps early next year.

 

I don't expect any announcements will be forthcoming, they already did that with the two memos.

They might say something about the global taxation thing but that's a completely different issue.

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

I expect they will release a new 'tax form' at some point, perhaps December, perhaps early next year.

 

I don't expect any announcements will be forthcoming, they already did that with the two memos.

They might say something about the global taxation thing but that's a completely different issue.

The new tax forms will have new instructions, all of which will yield clues,

[Lorry]

41 minutes ago, stat said:

Ok I stand to be corrected, can you or the OP pls elaborate on the circumstances why he was audited in the first place?

He wrote several lengthy detailed accounts about  it! Hard to miss