Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[OJAS]

7 hours ago, JimGant said:

I guess if I were a Brit, I'd like to get an HMRC readout of the above.

 

Below in italics is the text of a "complaint" which this particular Brit has sent to HMRC. Not holding my breath for any reply any time soon, though, let alone a favourable one:

 

For some mysterious reason the UK/Thailand Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) does not include specific Articles covering the State Pension and company occupational pensions. As a result it does not appear possible for UK nationals who are Thailand tax residents and in receipt of either or both pension types to seek relief from double taxation, as is certainly made clear in the case of the State Pension by Note 4 in the Thailand section of HMRC’s Digest of Double Taxation Treaties.

 

The Thailand Revenue Department has signalled its intention to seek income tax payments on all remittances to Thailand since 1/1/24 covering what they consider to be assessable income including State Pension and company occupational pension payments. In these circumstances what steps are HMRC taking with the aim of remedying the glaring deficiencies in the existing DTA through renegotiations with their Thai counterparts aimed at securing the inclusion of new Articles specifically covering the State Pension and company occupational pensions?

 

Edited August 5 by OJAS

[UKresonant]

On 8/4/2024 at 1:35 AM, sometimewoodworker said:

You say or quote the above. However the TRD disagrees with that statement in bold, see section 40 (1) 2

 

that Thailand may pay pensions that are under the threshold to actually pay tax doesn’t mean that hey are not taxable

The UK State Pension would perhaps not be under that section, it is possible that a person obtains it through credits for example from Child Benefit (or over 16 at high school if they still do that). It is not from employment directly.

 

Previously the politicians said it was called a benefit, because you benefit from. Now thay are tacking towards oh it is a benefit not an entitlement, and are moving to change it.

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, topt said:

Personally I think he is just being "difficult" which unfortunately has been a long standing trait in these threads. 

I wouldn't presume to offer an opinion on Oz taxation but ...........

It does seem perverse and contrarian, without an obvious valid reason. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

14 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I don't understand your logic regarding the UK State Pension. The UK government confirms it is not a government pension, which means it is assessable, that is the worst case scenario. If TRD were, for some completely bizarre reason, decide to classify it as a government pension, that would take away their ability to tax that income and they would lose revenue. Is that what you are suggesting might happen?

 

Everything is an opinion - unless TRD decides otherwise.  I am stating that it is what the TRD decides that matters - it does not matter what the UK has 'determined or stated'.  I think you are thinking that the TRD is an efficient professional and organised Government Agency - it is not by any means.  May I suggest, if you want to sort this out yourself, then start from this simple premise - TRD decides. So therefore, if you were to show a TRD Officer the UK Government website about the State Pension, I think Somchai will agree that it is not taxable. At the very least it will be a good basis to claim 'I did not know'.  There is no simple definite factual reality regarding how/when/if TRD will apply income taxes - make your own decisions and put all that together for later use - or get some advice from a tax accountant - up to you. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

13 hours ago, topt said:

Personally I think he is just being "difficult" which unfortunately has been a long standing trait in these threads. 

I wouldn't presume to offer an opinion on Oz taxation but ...........

OK - that is a deal - I will no longer try to offer anyone my opinions on UK tax matters.  Pomes are always the same.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

13 hours ago, topt said:

No, what has been said is that the "State" pension is definitely not classed as a govt. pension under the terms of the DTA from a UK perspective and as such potentially assessable.

However, again as previously stated, how TRD will view it is potentially open to interpretation.

You just seem to want to keep on stirring the pot for no discernible reason......

 

Oh and to one of your other posts about collecting tax see here potentially for relevance - make of it what you will - 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-13687737/Half-million-taxpayers-set-receive-tax-demand-letter-HMRC-Heres-one.html?ico=mol_desktop_money-newtab&molReferrerUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fmoney%2Findex.html

Whatever you think about UK people paying taxes in Thailand is OK by me - no skin off my nose. 

[topt]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

OK - that is a deal - I will no longer try to offer anyone my opinions on UK tax matters.  Pomes are always the same.

That "Thanks" is from me 

[chiang mai]

37 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

Everything is an opinion - unless TRD decides otherwise.  I am stating that it is what the TRD decides that matters - it does not matter what the UK has 'determined or stated'.  I think you are thinking that the TRD is an efficient professional and organised Government Agency - it is not by any means.  May I suggest, if you want to sort this out yourself, then start from this simple premise - TRD decides. So therefore, if you were to show a TRD Officer the UK Government website about the State Pension, I think Somchai will agree that it is not taxable. At the very least it will be a good basis to claim 'I did not know'.  There is no simple definite factual reality regarding how/when/if TRD will apply income taxes - make your own decisions and put all that together for later use - or get some advice from a tax accountant - up to you. 

I disagree. There are facts and there are opinions and UK DWP has stated fact, they are the sole authority for  that fact, regardless of the opinions others may have, nobody's opinions can change that fact. Anyway, you haven't given a reason why they might wish to take the opposite view, for what benefit.

 

Edited August 6 by chiang mai

[jwest10]

On 8/4/2024 at 6:17 PM, chiang mai said:

That would make perfect sense of his answer.

Yes on the old forms 90 and 91 and yes the heading is Taxation from Employment but in the first box state salary and pensions!!
BTW I went around again for the 4th time today and recently my local Tax office stated nothing has changed but think forms going to be updated Oct/ Nov in any case I am below the current exemption and allowances and a tax form is unlikely to be filed and so not worry about it!!!
As if don't worry about all the issues here.

[sometimewoodworker]

18 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Depends upon the DTA you mean (they change a lot).

I am referring, as was clear from the original context which your quote has divorced it from, to the U. K. TDC and that hasn’t changed in 40 years or so.

 

18 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

My 'statement' that IMO the UK State Pension looks like a Government Pension to me (and the link to a UK Government website) is only my opinion - but I reckon that Somchai in the local TRD Office would probably agree with that statement when told that and shown that UK Gov website.

Once again that it may be considered a U.K. government pension by you Tom Cobley and Somchai in the TRD is absolutely irrelevant because it is NOT a pension paid  in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority and it is only a pension paid  in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority  that is exempt from assessment as income because of Article 19 of the U.K. DTC (NB it is a DTC not a DTA for the U.K.) 

 

It is clear that it is not by whom the pension is paid. It is for what the pension is paid that is the governing factor. The only mention of pensions are in Article 19 Governmental Services and only cover services provided to the U.K. government 

So though in general the pension is paid by the U.K. government it could easily be privatised and contracted out to a random pension provider and it would still be considered exempt from Thai taxation 

 

18 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I have formal written advice from a tax expert, confirmed by a TRD employee friend of my wife's Sister, that if someone does not have to pay income taxes after TEDA, then they dont have to lodge a tax return

FWIW having just had a meeting with a Tax Director with one of the big 4 firms, agrees with the advice given to you.

[sometimewoodworker]

On 7/22/2024 at 1:21 PM, Raindancer said:

What is the 100k you have listed as expenses?  If my question is too intrusive, my apologies.  I was just interested in that figure under "expenses" and what it comprised of.

Having just concluded my meeting, the above are Personal expenses this is on all the examples of one of the big 4 firms and it is a standard allowance that avoids having to give details of receipts etc that are spent to get the pension or earned income. Here are some of the allowances 

[chiang mai]

Many if not most categories of Thai income offer a standard deduction option. Pension income, income from employment, rental income, income from product sales for self employed,  all have the standard deduction option, most of which are attractive alternatives to savings receipts and itemizing expenses all year.. 

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Many if not most categories of Thai income offer a standard deduction option. Pension income, income from employment, rental income, income from product sales for self employed,  all have the standard deduction option, most of which are attractive alternatives to savings receipts and itemizing expenses all year.. 

While I don’t disagree that there may well be standard deductions I have only seen the one listed above, also the person I spoke to today did not know of any deduction specifically for pension income and given his position I would expect him to know. I remember that a deduction has been mentioned in some of the posts however I have not seen an authoritative link giving that information and would like to see some support for that.

[OJAS]

On 8/4/2024 at 9:44 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

The new State Pension: Eligibility - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Looks like a Government Pension to me - but that is not what counts - what counts is how TRD views and accepts it.

 

It is, indeed, a Government Pension BUT NOT AN OCCUPATIONAL ONE (as is not the similar Australian Age Pension either, if I understand correctly).

 

Whereas Article 19 of the UK/Thailand DTA is clearly restricted to Government OCCUPATIONAL Pensions.

 

Therein lies the crucial difference - which even the most dimwitted numbskull of a decision-maker within the TRD who is worth but a solitary grain of salt should be capable of detecting, I would have thought.

 

Edited August 6 by OJAS

[chiang mai]

3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

While I don’t disagree that there may well be standard deductions I have only seen the one listed above, also the person I spoke to today did not know of any deduction specifically for pension income and given his position I would expect him to know. I remember that a deduction has been mentioned in some of the posts however I have not seen an authoritative link giving that information and would like to see some support for that.

 

Standard Deductions against Categories 1 (salary or pension income), Cat. 2 (Service/Agents fees etc) Cat. 3 (annuities plus), Cat 5 (Rental income), Cat 6 (profession specific), Cat 7 (Construction Services) & Cat 8 (agriculture/commercial/transport income). PLUS, standard deductions against Health Insurance, Life Insurance, Retirement Savings (LTF and RMF's), Mortgage Interest, etc etc etc.

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

 

Sections 42 thru 47 of the TRD Code explains:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37748.html

 

 

Self employed can take a 60% cost of sales standard deduction:

 

"In 2016 and prior years, self-employed income taxpayers were entitled to claim the standard expenses deduction up to 85% of their income. With effect from the 2017 tax years, the standard expenses deduction is now limited to 60% of income.  On the upside, however, taxpayers with self-employed income may elect to rather itemize and claim the actual expenses incurred during the tax year. This would be beneficial where the actual expenses incurred exceed the standard expenses deduction".

 

https://kpmg.com/th/en/home/insights/2018/02/thailand-tax-updates-15february2018.html

Edited August 6 by chiang mai

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

While I don’t disagree that there may well be standard deductions I have only seen the one listed above, also the person I spoke to today did not know of any deduction specifically for pension income and given his position I would expect him to know. I remember that a deduction has been mentioned in some of the posts however I have not seen an authoritative link giving that information and would like to see some support for that.

 

In case you haven't seen it, many of these things have been documented in the link below:

 

a) Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000 

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000 

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000 

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000 

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR)  

 

90) Additional deductions and allowances exist for health or life insurance premiums paid in Thailand, along with a range of other things. A complete list of deductions, allowances and exemptions can be found in the links below: 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html  or from Sherrings below. 

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html 

 

You should be aware that Allowances and Deductions are different things, deductions are expense avenue specific, ie, deductions against types of income. Allowances are purpose specific, ie, care, medical etc. 

 

 

Edited August 6 by chiang mai

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

In case you haven't seen it, many of these things have been documented in the link below:

 

a) Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000 

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000 

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000 

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000 

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR)  

 

90) Additional deductions and allowances exist for health or life insurance premiums paid in Thailand, along with a range of other things. A complete list of deductions, allowances and exemptions can be found in the links below: 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html  or from Sherrings below. 

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html 

 

You should be aware that Allowances and Deductions are different things, deductions are expense avenue specific, ie, deductions against types of income. Allowances are purpose specific, ie, care, medical etc. 

 

 

It is likely a semantics situation as well a what looks to be wording that is much more restricted on the picture above that reads

”50% of pension income up to 100K”  that is the only reference to what I think all other sites like Sherrings term as an expense allowance. They do not list an allowance for pensions 

Deductions for Expenses

Deduction against Category 1 Income (salaries, wages, pension income)

50% of assessable income but not more than 100,000 Baht

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It is likely a semantics situation as well a what looks to be wording that is much more restricted on the picture above that reads

”50% of pension income up to 100K”  that is the only reference to what I think all other sites like Sherrings term as an expense allowance. They do not list an allowance for pensions 

Deductions for Expenses

 

Deduction against Category 1 Income (salaries, wages, pension income)

50% of assessable income but not more than 100,000 Baht

Yes you're right, the terms Allowance and Deduction are often used interchangeably when really they shouldn't be. The point is that the same 50% deductions that is used for income is also allowed for pensions, I have claimed that every year for many years.

[NoDisplayName]

On 8/7/2024 at 3:09 AM, chiang mai said:

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000 

 

I believe there is also a handicap exemption available for under 65'ers.  190K.  Not applicable ot over 65'ers that already have a 190K exemption.

[Rimmer]

A post presumably discussing other members has been removed

[Ricardo]

One wonders whether & how the (long anticipated) new problems of the current (or rather, previous, as it now appears) PM, might impact the income-tax change-of-policy, or not ? 

 

Obviously it's not the government's main concern just now, but one can always hope that the new rules might fall-through-the-cracks, before they actually take effect and technically require some of us to possibly make tax-returns early next year ?  

[redwood1]

3 hours ago, Ricardo said:

One wonders whether & how the (long anticipated) new problems of the current (or rather, previous, as it now appears) PM, might impact the income-tax change-of-policy, or not ? 

 

Obviously it's not the government's main concern just now, but one can always hope that the new rules might fall-through-the-cracks, before they actually take effect and technically require some of us to possibly make tax-returns early next year ?  

 

There was no tax policy to begin with so there is nothing to change.....Things will continue on as they always have...I think the only people who will be paying will be the farang  hand wringers who insist on paying no matter what....

[jwest10]

4 hours ago, Ricardo said:

One wonders whether & how the (long anticipated) new problems of the current (or rather, previous, as it now appears) PM, might impact the income-tax change-of-policy, or not ? 

 

Obviously it's not the government's main concern just now, but one can always hope that the new rules might fall-through-the-cracks, before they actually take effect and technically require some of us to possibly make tax-returns early next year ?  

Yes, I have again gone around and asked questions at our local Revenue Department and now several times and these dual tax agreements have already been agreed and yes aware of all the allowances and deductibles which can amount to 560K and think many of us will fall into this or slightly above and on the old forms 90 and 91  definitely head up Income Tax from employment in Thailand and I do not work here.
However on the forms in the 2nd Box stating salaries and pensions.
Yes have also read a lot and it seems no one knows what is going to happen but one can prepare and do rough calculations and wait until, if any new information is available but 1st Jan 2025 to 31st March 2025 could be significant.

I have been strongly advised not to do anything but I make this very clear there are no income tax forms for 2024 available, as yet!!!
 

Edited August 15 by jwest10

[jwest10]

18 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

There was no tax policy to begin with so there is nothing to change.....Things will continue on as they always have...I think the only people who will be paying will be the farang  hand wringers who insist on paying no matter what....

The very rich ones but they normally do not go after them or indeed  the Thais and this is true throughout theworld too!!

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/6/2024 at 3:34 PM, OJAS said:

 

It is, indeed, a Government Pension BUT NOT AN OCCUPATIONAL ONE (as is not the similar Australian Age Pension either, if I understand correctly).

 

Whereas Article 19 of the UK/Thailand DTA is clearly restricted to Government OCCUPATIONAL Pensions.

 

Therein lies the crucial difference - which even the most dimwitted numbskull of a decision-maker within the TRD who is worth but a solitary grain of salt should be capable of detecting, I would have thought.

 

This is the point many in the Australia Forum don't want to accept. 

 

Article 18 and Article 19 of Australia's DTA with Thailand deals with pensions.  Article 18 relies on the "provisions" of Article 19, and Article 19 focuses on government occupational pensions. 

 

When this was put to members, one member's reply was, and I quote, "Forget about Article 19." 

 

Yes, it's like Article 19 does not exist, because Article 18 says the pension will be tax in the resident country only. 

 

Addressed in this video.  Around 16 minutes to 18 minutes. 

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

5 hours ago, Ricardo said:

One wonders whether & how the (long anticipated) new problems of the current (or rather, previous, as it now appears) PM, might impact the income-tax change-of-policy, or not ? 

 

Obviously it's not the government's main concern just now, but one can always hope that the new rules might fall-through-the-cracks, before they actually take effect and technically require some of us to possibly make tax-returns early next year ?  

Good question - it was Srettha who directed TRD to increase their tax take, including going after Expat's money.

If TRD does just let this issue die (which I think they will), we will not be advised of any such 'policy change'.

As with TM30s when they suddenly starting enforcing it, and then they stopped doing that - but said nothing 'officially'. 

[OJAS]

54 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

This is the point many in the Australia Forum don't want to accept. 

 

Article 18 and Article 19 of Australia's DTA with Thailand deals with pensions.  Article 18 relies on the "provisions" of Article 19, and Article 19 focuses on government occupational pensions. 

 

When this was put to members, one member's reply was, and I quote, "Forget about Article 19." 

 

Yes, it's like Article 19 does not exist, because Article 18 says the pension will be tax in the resident country only. 

 

Addressed in this video.  Around 16 minutes to 18 minutes. 

 

 

 

What I find particularly fascinating is that the wording of Article 18(1) of the AU/TH DTA appears to be suggesting that Aussies who are tax residents of Thailand and in receipt of the Australian Age Pension and/or company pensions "shall be taxable only in" Thailand in the case of these 2 pensions. However, does this really mean that they are, in practice, only liable to taxation at lower Thai rates, with zero tax payments to the Australian equivalent of the TRD at higher Australian rates? I somehow find this rather hard to believe!!

 

Contrast this with the plight of Brits who are in receipt of the UK State Pension and/or company pensions. There is nothing in the UK/TH DTA corresponding to the wording of Article 18(1) of its AU/TH counterpart. Indeed not a dicky-bird mention of pensions at all in the whole DTA  beyond the reference to Governmental occupational pensions in Article 19.  Despite this, some of my fellow Brits still seem to believe that relief from double taxation is somehow possible in the case of the State and company pensions! 

[redwood1]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Good question - it was Srettha who directed TRD to increase their tax take, including going after Expat's money.

If TRD does just let this issue die (which I think they will), we will not be advised of any such 'policy change'.

As with TM30s when they suddenly starting enforcing it, and then they stopped doing that - but said nothing 'officially'. 

 

I think you are correct......I think the barrel that was full of  (it was all a big misunderstanding )  must be getting awful low these days.......

 

The Thais are having a good laugh....

 

A single short remark by Mr. Smiley almost a year ago and the farangs go completely mad with endless  posts about what ifs and maybes...And the frarangs here even went to great lengths to organize and chart all the what ifs and maybes.........lol

 

100s of pages of nonsense.....And from the best I could tell no one but western farang cared enough to give this tax  madness even the slightest attention....  

Edited August 15 by redwood1

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, redwood1 said:

And from the best I could tell no one but western farang cared enough to give this tax  madness even the slightest attention..

That's because the easiest targets have the most to be concerned about. 

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, OJAS said:

What I find particularly fascinating is that the wording of Article 18(1) of the AU/TH DTA appears to be suggesting that Aussies who are tax residents of Thailand and in receipt of the Australian Age Pension and/or company pensions "shall be taxable only in" Thailand in the case of these 2 pensions.

Article 18 is subject to the "provisions" of Article 19, and Article 19 sets out government occupational pensions.  Eg.  military pension.