Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[redwood1]

8 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

If they are going to track people down start with the Chinese and Russians because no way any of them will file taxes.

 

And include the Indians too....Along with every other nationality... Except farangs  of European origin.........

 

In All these tax threads from day #1  I  think I have read a poster saying....Sorry but English is not my first language maybe  6-7-8  times in total out 10s of thousands of posts.....

[chiang mai]

13 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

And include the Indians too....Along with every other nationality... Except farangs  of European origin.........

 

In All these tax threads from day #1  I  think I have read a poster saying....Sorry but English is not my first language maybe  6-7-8  times in total out 10s of thousands of posts.....

Just a theory or WAG of course but is that because non-English speaking people don't read English language forums, perhaps?

[stat]

9 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

If they are going to track people down start with the Chinese and Russians because no way any of them will file taxes.

No problem, TRD COULD  just assume all transfers are income and fully taxable. This is the way the German IRS doest it if you do not file they put out a guess.

 

If you are still inside the country you COULD have a problem.

[gamb00ler]

20 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

I would guess that any farang who received interest from a Thai bank would already be in the RD system.  Doesn't that sound reasonable?

 

13 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

There is a 20,000 baht minimum for such bank interest to be taxable.

 

That implies a bank account in the millions before any tax on interest is applicable.

I made no mention of the taxability of the interest reported to the TRD by Thai banks.  The TRD will likely know (or have received a record of) all the interest amounts paid out by Thai banks to Thailand residents.  The TRD would need that information to verify when a tax filer claims a refund of the withholdings from interest payments.  I doubt that TRD would totally rely on the documentation the tax filer needs to include with his request for refund.

[4myr]

15 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

 

The TRD would need that information to verify when a tax filer claims a refund of the withholdings from interest payments.  I doubt that TRD would totally rely on the documentation the tax filer needs to include with his request for refund.

 

I doubt that banks report withholding tax on an individual level, as they don't have the tax id's of the account holders in most of the cases.

 

Up till now, Thai banks do not require a tax id to open a bank account. I read somewhere that some banks started to require a tax id to open a bank account.

If you want a refund from TRD for the withholding tax, you are required to register your tax id on the bank account where your refund will be transfered to.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, 4myr said:

 

I doubt that banks report withholding tax on an individual level, as they don't have the tax id's of the account holders in most of the cases.

 

Up till now, Thai banks do not require a tax id to open a bank account. I read somewhere that some banks started to require a tax id to open a bank account.

If you want a refund from TRD for the withholding tax, you are required to register your tax id on the bank account where your refund will be transfered to.

The Thai ID Card number is the tax ID number, banks have the Thai ID card number of all their Thai customers.

 

Increasingly foreigners are being asked for TIN's by their bank, if they don't produce one, tax is withheld at source on all interest paid, not just from 20k onwards.

 

I can assure you that banks do report details of customer, TIN, interest paid and tax withheld, at a detail level. I see mine on the TRD system every year when I file a tax return and I didn't put it there. 

[gamb00ler]

37 minutes ago, 4myr said:

I doubt that banks report withholding tax on an individual level, as they don't have the tax id's of the account holders in most of the cases.

The Thai banks have enough unique personal identifiers to send along with their reports of interest payouts.  Passport numbers and full name are collected by the all Thai banks from foreigners.

[Lorry]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

It is a fact that the banks do send that information to TRD. I only need to enter one of my bank account numbers into the TRD system and the tax and interest data from ALL my accounts appears on the screen as part of my tax records.

Because you have a TIN

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Because you have a TIN

The banks must send any tax that is withheld, to TRD, even if the customer doesn't supply a TIN. In which case, almost certainly they will supply associated information in anticipation that the customer will obtain a TIN and file a return to reclaim the tax paid. 

 

When I file a return, my bank account information doesn't automatically appear, I have to enter one of my account numbers and associate it with my return. Entering one bank account number, produces a list of ALL my bank accounts so they are not grouped based on TIN, they are based on name plus plus.

[Lorry]

5 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

The Thai banks have enough unique personal identifiers to send along with their reports of interest payouts.  Passport numbers and full name are collected by the all Thai banks from foreigners.

The TRD system doesn't work with often changing (as opposed to Thai ID) passport numbers, and certainly not with weird foreign names, like Ilan (that's all, only one name) or Pedro María Alvárez Gonzáles  (can you parse it?)

[Lorry]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The banks must send any tax that is withheld, to TRD, even if the customer doesn't supply a TIN. In which case, almost certainly they will supply associated information in anticipation that the customer will obtain a TIN and file a return to reclaim the tax paid. 

If the customer later wants his WHT back - for which he has to get a TIN first -, there are triplicate forms for this from the bank.  TRD then enters these manually into their system. 

[gamb00ler]

46 minutes ago, Lorry said:

The TRD system doesn't work with often changing (as opposed to Thai ID) passport numbers, and certainly not with weird foreign names, like Ilan (that's all, only one name) or Pedro María Alvárez Gonzáles  (can you parse it?)

no need to parse anything.... only compare.

[Danderman123]

Discussions about procedures that Farangs with Thai tax identification numbers who regularly file Thai tax returns are not germane to the issue of the impact of the new Thai regulations on Farangs who have never filed.

 

Yes, once you file a Thai return, you are in the system, and the RD may come looking for you if you fail to file again. We got that.

 

Also, people with millions of baht in Thai banks may face scrutiny from the RD. We got that.

 

The question is the impact of the new tax regulations on Farangs who have never filed, and/or don't have millions of baht in Thai banks.

 

There really should be a topic for the 2 or 3 people who file Thai returns to talk to each other.

[gamb00ler]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

If the customer later wants his WHT back - for which he has to get a TIN first -, there are triplicate forms for this from the bank.  TRD then enters these manually into their system. 

You have just agreed with what we have been saying.  The TRD can associate the withholdings made on interest payments to an individual despite that individual not previously having a Thai tax ID.   Also your story shows that the TRD already has the records of interest payments on file.  It makes sense that TRD will give the filer a Thai tax ID because they are likely going to be filing again in the future.

[chiang mai]

59 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Discussions about procedures that Farangs with Thai tax identification numbers who regularly file Thai tax returns are not germane to the issue of the impact of the new Thai regulations on Farangs who have never filed.

 

Yes, once you file a Thai return, you are in the system, and the RD may come looking for you if you fail to file again. We got that.

 

Also, people with millions of baht in Thai banks may face scrutiny from the RD. We got that.

 

The question is the impact of the new tax regulations on Farangs who have never filed, and/or don't have millions of baht in Thai banks.

 

There really should be a topic for the 2 or 3 people who file Thai returns to talk to each other.

What I get out of what you have said is that you want me/us to say that foreigners who don't have a TIN and don't have millions in the bank, are perfectly safe because they are outside the TRD system (whatever that means). Unfortunately, there is far too much anecdotal and circumstantial evidence to suggest that wont be the case, sorry but that's the way I see things. I say these things based on my experience of working in banking and  also in tax rather than a gut feel or guess based on logic. Sorry that I can't oblige.

[gamb00ler]

3 hours ago, Lorry said:

The TRD system doesn't work with often changing (as opposed to Thai ID) passport numbers, and certainly not with weird foreign names, like Ilan (that's all, only one name) or Pedro María Alvárez Gonzáles  (can you parse it?)

You obviously don't have a background in database management, software engineering or system analysis and design.  The "problems" you've listed are well understood by competent software folks and are easily solved.   NEXT

[Lorry]

1 minute ago, gamb00ler said:

You obviously don't have a background in database management, software engineering or system analysis and design.  The "problems" you've listed are well understood by competent software folks and are easily solved.   NEXT

555

The smart IT guys  in our company have been solving these problems for the last 30 years. It's us working people who have to deal with the consequences of their "solutions".

[gamb00ler]

1 minute ago, Lorry said:

555

The smart IT guys  in our company have been solving these problems for the last 30 years. It's us working people who have to deal with the consequences of their "solutions".

Sounds like my guess is correct.... you don't have a good understanding of best practices for database management.

 

[Lorry]

5 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

Sounds like my guess is correct.... you don't have a good understanding of best practices for database management.

 

I do have a very good understanding of IT guys

Just read your own posts and see them oozing intelligence

[gamb00ler]

4 minutes ago, Lorry said:

I do have a very good understanding of IT guys

Just read your own posts and see them oozing intelligence

Yes, I agree the contrast with your responses is stark.

[KhunHeineken]

22 hours ago, Lorry said:

There is generally no need for foreigners to report interest they received from Thai banks to the TRD. 

 

 

What about, "un-generally?" 

 

It's called World Wide Income.  Google it, and educate yourself. 

[chiang mai]

In some posters minds there seems to be two categories of foreigner, one who is entirely known to TRD, because  they have a TIN, the  second is less well known because they don't. What I hear being said is that those who have a TIN, shouldn't be part of the debate on tax, because they are already in the system.  If this is the case, and clearly from preceding posts it is, my response is, why? Has the debate on tax now turned to become a debate on how to avoid becoming part of the tax system, whatever that may mean?

 

Just catering to the above whim for a moment......if you have an Immigration record, you are easily capable of becoming part of the TRD system whether you like it or not. If you have a Thai bank account and receive interest and pay tax, you are already part of the TRD system, like it or not. If you remit funds to Thailand from overseas, you are already part of the TRD system, like it or not. So why all the angst?

 

Does  the fact the TRD doesn't write to you and ask why you haven't obtained a TIN yet and asked if you are certain you don't need to file a tax return, make you think that you are tax anonymous and operating in the shadows?  Please tell me it doesn't!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bkk6060]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

If you remit funds to Thailand from overseas, you are already part of the TRD system, like it or not. So why all the angst?

How's that?

I bet if I went to an office and asked them to check my status in their "system" they would have no record of anything on me.

Yes, if you have a TIN you will be in their system.  Otherwise, I bet the 100's of thousands of Expats living here without TINS are not in their "system" at all.  Ask them for a record of your remitted funds I bet they laugh in your face.

[chiang mai]

30 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

How's that?

I bet if I went to an office and asked them to check my status in their "system" they would have no record of anything on me.

Yes, if you have a TIN you will be in their system.  Otherwise, I bet the 100's of thousands of Expats living here without TINS are not in their "system" at all.  Ask them for a record of your remitted funds I bet they laugh in your face.

"already a part of the system"....that doesn't mean you can walk into any TRD office and enquire about your tax status. But your existence is known to them by virtue of that transfer and that bank account. If they want to join up the dots from there, it's only a very short step.

[ElwoodP]

Reported off topic posts removed.

[Yumthai]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

"already a part of the system"....that doesn't mean you can walk into any TRD office and enquire about your tax status. But your existence is known to them by virtue of that transfer and that bank account. If they want to join up the dots from there, it's only a very short step.

The point is not Thailand collecting and holding comprehensive data on their residents.

It's indeed technically not too complicated to merge and query all databases at their disposal in order to, for instance, list per calendar year all residents (Thai and foreigners) who are tax residents along with their aggregated Thai bank balances and where foreign inward transfers total amount exceed a certain threshold. They could have this kind of information since many years via a simple mouse click. Depending on that threshold this could be a very long list.

 

The point is they were and are doing nothing with all this available information. Why would they tomorrow?

Do they have the capacity to yearly audit several 10K, 100K or perhaps millions of tax residents?

Do they really have the political will to strictly enforce tax possibly facing unwanted large consequences on the economy?

I don't think so.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

The point is not Thailand collecting and holding comprehensive data on their residents.

It's indeed technically not too complicated to merge and query all databases at their disposal in order to, for instance, list per calendar year all residents (Thai and foreigners) who are tax residents along with their aggregated Thai bank balances and where foreign inward transfers total amount exceed a certain threshold. They could have this kind of information since many years via a simple mouse click. Depending on that threshold this could be a very long list.

 

The point is they were and are doing nothing with all this available information. Why would they tomorrow?

Do they have the capacity to yearly audit several 10K, 100K or perhaps millions of tax residents?

Do they really have the political will to strictly enforce tax possibly facing unwanted large consequences on the economy?

I don't think so.

"The point is they were and are doing nothing with all this available information. Why would they tomorrow?

Do they have the capacity to yearly audit several 10K, 100K or perhaps millions of tax residents?

Do they really have the political will to strictly enforce tax possibly facing unwanted large consequences on the economy?"

 

You can't possibly know the correct answer to these questions, we have no idea what they are doing currently or what they intend to do tomorrow. But the answers to those questions shouldn't be part of deciding how to handle the tax scenario. Understanding those answer is more about gauging the risk of doing nothing. For most rational people, knowing that the capability and the data exists, should be enough to help them decide.

[gamb00ler]

I simply cannot fathom why some posters would assume that the TRD would not want to receive from the Thai banks a list of every interest payment to a resident of Thailand.

 

One excellent reason for TRD to do so is to ensure the Thai banks are following the law/regulations regarding withholding tax on that interest.  TRD would also like to see if individuals are avoiding tax withholding by spreading their deposits amongst multiple banks so that they don't exceed 20K ฿ at any individual bank.

 

It's clear to me that TRD has sufficient motivation to collect the record of interest payments.

[Yumthai]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

But the answers to those questions shouldn't be part of deciding how to handle the tax scenario. Understanding those answer is more about gauging the risk of doing nothing. For most rational people, knowing that the capability and the data exists, should be enough to help them decide.

Any decision that one has to make in life is a negotiation between one's possible outcomes assessment of a situation.

Granted that risk-aversion varies.

[Presnock]

I am basically computer ignorant, 77 years old and while I managed offices with over 30-40 computers active all the time, I had assistants responsible for that activity.  I only used the computers to garther information so know how to search but the experts in operating the computer systems always could teach me something new in how to find information.  Now computers in Thailand are modern in most places, and they have people who know how to use them and I think that the Immigration and TRD departments could easily get together through the govt economic managers to find out data on the foreign nationals here dealing with remittances to Thai banks, any possible interest paid by Thai banks to foreigners, foreigners who have become tax-residents each year, and much other data about the foreign nationals could probably also become available by proper computer usage, not requiring too many people, just by doing a search program which would download the data to one office.  If the same govt officials in the taxation department are ordered by the new government to implement the worldwide income taxation scheme they mentioned earlier, then the experts could possibly find ways to garner details on expats of any nation in Thailand.  That is my opinion  anyway based on the search procedures I have used in the past.  I am not scare mongering at all, just think that if they really do seek every baht possible from the expats, then they will begin in the not-too-distant future.  I am not concerned yet and even if they do, unless they are actually going to change all the laws about taxation and expats then I still feel that I should have no problems in the future even.  But since TIT and I have over 30 years experience here stretched out over 50 years, who knows?  Yeah I think for the very near future, none of really will be affected to force us to leave for greener pastures but as for the following years it all depends on how the local economy moves IMHO.  Best of luck to all of us.