Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[chiang mai]

51 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Woop-di-do

This is hardly big news nor any significant revelation, for months now many law firms have been quoting the letter of the TRD regulations, if asked, they will happily show you where it is listed in the TRD rules.

 

This is where there is a difference between a law firm and a tax accountant firm 

The law firm will follow the letter of the law and advise on that, (they cannot be wrong, but following their advice may well make you unpopular with the TRD)

The tax accountant will follow the requirements of the TRD officers they present accounts to and have been advised by.

Because this is Thailand it is not any revelation that the letter of the law and the practice are different 

 

You must decide which advice to follow, I am certainly not going to tell you which I am going to do, nor am I going to make any recommendations 

 

You conveniently forget the advice given by at least one of the big 4 major accounting firms, not the mention the personal advice given by numerous TRD officials.

 

But you do you, of course you are going to do that anyway 

I discount anecdotes when they are third and fourth hand, but feel free to post a link to any Big 4 firm or the TRD, confirming that foreigners don't have to file under the quoted circumstances. 

 

I would remind you that the supportive evidence on my side of the argument is the TRD Code and several law firms. To make me cross the line you'll need to exceed that in terms of quality and volume.

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

I'll agree that he talks a bit of BS ( even more later in the video re the Hong Kong stuff) , but I believe his examples I noted were factual, and I do agree with his views on the practical implementation of taxation of foreigners / foreign remittance.

Yes, it will be a cultural shock at the RD as well. Remember that over the past 40 years there were hundreds of thousands that could have been audited for their compliance to the seasoning rule. Has anyone heard of any of such cases?

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

Yes, it will be a cultural shock at the RD as well. Remember that over the past 40 years there were hundreds of thousands that could have been audited for their compliance to the seasoning rule. Has anyone heard of any of such cases?

Why would we? Active membership of AN in the tax threads is well under a hundred whilst there are hundreds of thousands of western expats here.

[anrcaccount]

7 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Yes, it will be a cultural shock at the RD as well. Remember that over the past 40 years there were hundreds of thousands that could have been audited for their compliance to the seasoning rule. Has anyone heard of any of such cases?

 

I doubt there has ever been any enforcement of the foreign income same year rule. Never heard of a case, and it is the type of thing that would 100% definitely create news in the expat community, had it ever occurred. 

 

I would go further than this, and wouldn't be surprised, if there has been little/no tax ever paid on foreign remitted income to Thailand. 

 

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Because this is Thailand it is not any revelation that the letter of the law and the practice are different 

Yes, ignoring laws that have no practical value is what most efficient organizations do. That I might be called in for a chat, 'cause I tripped some wire when I bought high priced air conditioners at Home Pro, with my credit card -- and credit card purchases are deemed assessable income by Siam Legal -- give me a break. TRD isn't stupid enough to waste resources to query Home Pro about large credit card purchases by farangs, and then have to research whether or not those farangs were tax residents -- with the highly probable result that non assessable cash paid the credit card bill. TRD certainly can do cost/benefit analyses -- and the above scenario certainly wouldn't  be a keeper.

 

No, I'll certainly risk a 2000 baht fine for not filing 'cause I have 120k in assessable income -- knowing full well the chances of an audit are slight. And, with no tax evasion, nothing serious could happen, even if an audit occurred.

 

Quote

It's black and white and it's a law firm telling us, foreigners must file if they have over 60/120k of assessable income.

Yeah, the same law firm that tells you you have assessable income using your foreign credit card in Thailand. That you're comfortable with their overall advice -- is ludicrous.

[chiang mai]

We're being asked to ignore the TRD Code and the written word of law firms, in favour of a couple of verbose farang posters who say they are right. Hmmm, difficult choice. If you could balance the scales a little in favour  of your argument by providing  written evidence from a reliable source to support what you say, that might help. But honestly, if it's just a few  farang posters against the evidence, I'm not hopefully for you. Oh yeah, telling me I'm stupid doesn't enhance your argument or your credibility so try hard and keep it civil.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

I discount anecdotes when they are third and fourth hand, but feel free to post a link to any Big 4 firm or the TRD, confirming that foreigners don't have to file under the quoted circumstances. 

The advice was given from the(a) tax director of a big 4 company to me, so first hand. But as I said you do you

 

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

 

I would remind you that the supportive evidence on my side of the argument is the TRD Code and several law firms. To make me cross the line you'll need to exceed that in terms of quality and volume.

I have no desire to change your mind and I’m certainly not bothered to do your leg work, nor have I any interest in changing your choice.

 

Again as I said law firms will give you the letter of the law.

You, following your Teutonic training, will choose as you see fit

 

I will do as over 40 year outside the rigours of the U.K. mindset will do as my experience suggests.

 

however do please continue to provide entertainment by posting the kinds of news that is no news, and getting on your elevated quadruped proclaiming news that is really output from said quadruped of solid matter from the end that doesn’t bite, but does kick.

Edited October 7 by sometimewoodworker

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The advice was given from the(a) tax director of a big 4 company to me, so first hand. But as I said you do you

 

I have no desire to change your mind and I’m certainly not bothered to do your leg work, nor have I any interest in changing your choice.

 

Again as I said law firms will give you the letter of the law.

You, following your Teutonic training, will choose as you see fit

 

I will do as over 40 year outside the rigours of the U.K. mindset will do as my experience suggests.

 

however do please continue to provide entertainment by posting the kinds of news that is no news, and getting on your elevated quadruped proclaiming news that is really output from said quadruped of solid matter from the end that doesn’t bite, bit does kick.

So that's a nothing I presume....thank you for playing....next please.

[JimGant]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

by providing  written evidence from a reliable source to support what you say,

What I say is common sense. But I have no problem with your desire to file a nil tax return, because the law says you have to due to exceeding the assessable income threshold. There's no "winner take all" with this discussion. The reader can see both sides of the argument, then decide to do whatever they're most comfortable with.

[chiang mai]

I've always believed that everyone should have the choice and make their own decision whether to file or not. I also believe they should not be derided and called stupid or crazy if they follow the law and filed when no tax is due. 

 

I am pleased to see that you have modified your position.

[chiang mai]

The argument is often used that this or that must not be true, because the expat community hasn't heard anything about it. I wondered for a moment how valid that is because it seems not to make much sense.

 

I know from the many reports that there are plenty of  Western expats who avoid other expats like the plague, I personally only know two or three and the rest of our friends are either Thai or other nationalities. I suppose if I hung out in the bar every day I might know more Western expats but there again, the news that flows from those sources can't be the most reliable. The Western newspapers here contain unreliable news so that leaves the small percentage of Western expats who populate these pages. The problem, I think,  is that there  probably isn't sufficient communications between Thais and Western expats at a senior level that promotes flows of useful information.  Posters like Dogmatix are, in my twenty years in the forum,  a rare find here and are the exception.

 

I think this is perhaps a symptom of us overstating our own importance in Thailand yet again, the fact is that lots of things happen that we don't know about  or understand. Which is why it doesn't seem reasonable to say that just because we don't know about something, means it is not true.

 

[chiang mai]

10 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The advice was given from the(a) tax director of a big 4 company to me, so first hand. 

 

 

First hand for you perhaps and even then, questionable.

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I've always believed that everyone should have the choice and make their own decision whether to file or not. I also believe they should not be derided and called stupid or crazy if they follow the law and filed when no tax is due. 

 

I am pleased to see that you have modified your position.

In a weird kind of way I'm looking forward to filing a return next year... Sort of makes me feel like a responsible grown-up. 

 

 

Edited October 8 by Mike Teavee

[chiang mai]

10 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

In a weird kind of way I'm looking forward to filing a return next year... Sort of makes me feel like a responsible grown-up. 

 

 

At least you won't have that nagging feeling in the back of your mind, should I have done that or not.

 

Personally, I reckon TRD should host a lottery once a year, file your tax return and your TIN will be entered into the draw, first prize, THB 10 mill. The tax take would take off like the space shuttle. Remember, you heard it here first.

 

PS: taxable of course. 🙂

Edited October 8 by chiang mai

[anrcaccount]

13 hours ago, JimGant said:

He's a charlatan. When you have time, grab a beer, kick back, and read this thread.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1008555-tax-specialist-in-chiang-mai/

 

 

Fair enough, based on that, I wouldn't use him for my own or friends / family's advice!

 

That said, I do agree with his general views on the implementation of taxation on foreigners /  foreign remittance. 15 months(and counting) to try an process a single, straightforward DTA credit..............

 

Imagine the absolute chaos that will ensue at the TRD, if even 5% of expats somehow manage to register for a TIN and file a return by March 2025. 

 

 

[chiang mai]

It's data entry, everything goes into the system and the system spits out those that are incomplete or suspect, otherwise it's check and pass. Folks seem to have this image of metal desks and hundreds of checkers pouring through mountains of paper based returns even in Thailand it's 2024, not 1950. 

 

The other point to add here is that the native population has been migrated from paper based returns to filing online returns, in the past few years, that has left a lot of TRD people capacity that can be drawn on in the interim learning curve period.

Edited October 8 by chiang mai

[Mike Teavee]

38 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

At least you won't have that nagging feeling in the back of your mind, should I have done that or not.

 

Personally, I reckon TRD should host a lottery once a year, file your tax return and your TIN will be entered into the draw, first prize, THB 10 mill. The tax take would take off like the space shuttle. Remember, you heard it here first.

 

PS: taxable of course. 🙂

It's just another one of those things that makes me feel like I actually live here & am not just here on a holiday... 

 

Everybody is free to do things how they want to, I'll pay <10K in tax & thank my lucky stars that I get to live in Thailand 🙂 

 

Other's Mileage May Vary 👍

 

 

Edited October 8 by Mike Teavee

[Yumthai]

12 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

I doubt there has ever been any enforcement of the foreign income same year rule. Never heard of a case, and it is the type of thing that would 100% definitely create news in the expat community, had it ever occurred. 

 

I would go further than this, and wouldn't be surprised, if there has been little/no tax ever paid on foreign remitted income to Thailand. 

That is so true. Information of expats having been audited and fined for tax evasion in Thailand on their foreign income remittance would have spread like the plague.

IMO few audits have happened but for substantial reasons, not by throwing darts on a list.

Edited October 8 by Yumthai

[stat]

On 10/7/2024 at 10:38 AM, Ben Zioner said:

Difficult to calm down when facing tax bills in the 500K to 1M range. But I agree that it is pointless to spend anything on a tax consultant before early next year.

 

The only important thing to do was to segregate earnings made up to December 31, 2023.

Spot on! This is what some people here fail to understand that there are others who would pay 6 or 7 digits p.a. instead of zero tax currently.

[stat]

9 hours ago, chiang mai said:

It's data entry, everything goes into the system and the system spits out those that are incomplete or suspect, otherwise it's check and pass. Folks seem to have this image of metal desks and hundreds of checkers pouring through mountains of paper based returns even in Thailand it's 2024, not 1950. 

 

The other point to add here is that the native population has been migrated from paper based returns to filing online returns, in the past few years, that has left a lot of TRD people capacity that can be drawn on in the interim learning curve period.

If you have ever visited a german IRS office you would think you are in the 1950s yet it was 2020 the last time I saw IRS clerks submerged in mountains of paper so I guess TH is still paper based. Best example there is no way to get a TIN by applying online.

[chiang mai]

28 minutes ago, stat said:

If you have ever visited a german IRS office you would think you are in the 1950s yet it was 2020 the last time I saw IRS clerks submerged in mountains of paper so I guess TH is still paper based. Best example there is no way to get a TIN by applying online.

I imagine the TIN application probably is paper based since that's the very first record in the system. But thereafter, all personal IT filing is online, unless the taxpayer doesn't know how to do that....eventually most people will know.

 

I could quite easily file my taxes each year, from my desktop at home, by logging into the TRD system and completing the various screens they ask for. At the end, they may ask me to upload some documents as proof, or they may not, depending on the contents of my tax return. When it's all finished it will tell me the return is complete and would I like to print off an acknowledgment, for me, that's all there will be until next year. 

 

The above is not that dissimilar from online self assessment in the UK. In both cases, the Revenue has some information about me already, in the case of TRD, they know the amount of interest I was paid and the amount of tax with held on that interest, all I need to do is enter one of my Thai bank account numbers into the system and all my accounts appear on the screen.

 

That process has generated one piece of paper, my receipt, what paper it generates at TRD is unknown but I seriously doubt they print it all off and study it at their desk.

 

 

[anrcaccount]

9 hours ago, Yumthai said:

22 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

I doubt there has ever been any enforcement of the foreign income same year rule. Never heard of a case, and it is the type of thing that would 100% definitely create news in the expat community, had it ever occurred. 

 

I would go further than this, and wouldn't be surprised, if there has been little/no tax ever paid on foreign remitted income to Thailand. 

That is so true. Information of expats having been audited and fined for tax evasion in Thailand on their foreign income remittance would have spread like the plague.

IMO few audits have happened but for substantial reasons, not by throwing darts on a list.

 

 

Yes, common sense tells you it would have been reported. No doubt at all. 

 

I honestly don't believe any substantial amount of foreign income remittance Thai PIT has ever been declared, let alone someone has actually been contacted by the TRD regarding it, been investigated, and made to pay.

 

In reality, there must be billions of baht of same year earnt , foreign income, remitted to Thailand every year by (technical) Thai tax residents. 

 

 

[chiang mai]

Is it me or is there an echo in here!

[chiang mai]

This is an old and trivial story but I don't think I've seen it written explicitly before and I have seen that somebody asked......you do NOT need to include any pre-31/12/23 foreign sourced income on your 2024/2025 tax returns, assuming the new forms do not change in this regard. 

 

https://www.forvismazars.com/th/en/insights/doing-business-in-thailand/tax/further-guidance-on-foreign-sourced-income

 

 

[Phulublub]

On 10/7/2024 at 4:27 PM, JimGant said:

Not sure of your point.......if the credit card you use for purchases in Thailand is paid off with non assessable income/funds, then there is no taxable event. Plain and simple.  What am I missing?

 

The remittance (for that is what it is) may or may not be assessable in EXACTLY the same way as a cash transfer from bank ccount to bank account.

 

Why do you (appear to) find this such a difficult concept?

 

PH

[Ben Zioner]

7 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Why do you (appear to) find this such a difficult concept?

 

Denial, there is a lot of is when it comes to this tax business.

[chiang mai]

Plus it's something that some people always believed was safe, and now a widely held long term belief is being challenged and it makes for uncomfortable reading for some.

[anrcaccount]

4 hours ago, Phulublub said:

 

The remittance (for that is what it is) may or may not be assessable in EXACTLY the same way as a cash transfer from bank ccount to bank account.

 

Why do you (appear to) find this such a difficult concept?

 

PH

 

In Thailand, you cannot rigidly separate the law from the practical application of it, doing so makes the discussion of little use in the real world.

 

Income used to pay off a foreign credit card overseas, for spending in Thailand, may be considered a remittance and ‘technically assessable’, but it is practically much different to an inbound transfer to a Thai bank account.

 

An inbound transfer to a Thai bank account is much more likely to be verifiable by the TRD. It's not EXACTLY as assessable, practically. 

 

The foreign credit card ‘spending’ is not taxable. The income used to pay off the credit card may be technically assessable, but is ‘practically non- auditable’ by the TRD.

 

That is why, multiple established tax advisory firms state that foreign credit card usage will be “safe”. It’s ‘safe’, because it’s next to impossible for the TRD to confirm this is foreign income ‘remitted’.

 

It could be termed ‘technically assessable but practically non auditable’. It will only be assessed, if that individual decides to declare this voluntarily as foreign income to the TRD.

 

It would take exceptional circumstances for the TRD to even consider requesting a foreign credit card entity disclose transaction level detail, and then to have to parse and determine which of these transactions were considered ‘remitted to Thailand’. For anyone who may think this, no, the CRS regulations do not give the TRD the data they would need to even start to try and to do this. It would first take an audit (exceptionally rare) , and then, an exceptional request to the foreign credit card entity, to even start to investigate.

 

It’s likely not a single satang of tax has ever been paid in Thailand on a foreign credit card ‘remittance’, despite likely billions of ‘assessable’ same-year income earned has been transferred between foreign bank accounts and foreign credit card accounts, to pay off foreign credit cards used to buy goods/ services in Thailand.

[chiang mai]

I don't understand why people try to overcomplicate things, the basic process is this:

 

1 - The Taxpayer spends time in Thailand, becomes tax resident and spends money here, derived from a potential variety of sources.

 

2 - The Taxpayer self determines whether the money that was spent is assessable and either files a tax return and reports the income or decides it isn't necessary.

 

3 - The TRD examines data from a variety of in country and potentially overseas sources and initiates investigations based on what it sees.

 

Nowhere in the above is a step that eliminates income because it's too difficult to determine if funds are assessable or not. Nowhere in the above is a step that eliminates funds or people just because TRD can't immediately see all the detailed information they might want or need.

 

If the TRD wants further information about a particular taxpayers return or spending patterns/habits, using ANY funds remittance mechanism, cash, TT, debit card, credit card etc etc, the TRD will tell the taxpayer to supply that information. If the taxpayer refuses or cannot, and the TRD suspects even loosely that funds have been remitted that were assessable and they were not declared, an estimated tax liability will be presented to the taxpayer, based on what the TRD sees and thinks.   If the TRD believes that Bernie from Bolton has been living in Pattaya year round, paying all his expenses using his UK Barclaycard and TRD has evidence to support some of that, Bernie will get a bill. If Bernie has a problem with that and thinks the TRD is incorrect, there are tax tribunals and appeals processes for Bernie to use to convince the TRD of the error of their ways and prove the funds used to pay the CC bill, were not tax assessable.

 

Now, has any of the above ever happened....dunno, nobody on AN knows the answer, they can only guess. Will the above ever happen? Of course it will, the choice of remittance  mechanism doesn't change the assessability of a remittance although some will believe it does and will try to take advantage. Will people self declare credit card transactions on a tax returns?  Who knows, again, we can only guess and assume.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9 by chiang mai

[stat]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I don't understand why people try to overcomplicate things, the basic process is this:

 

1 - The Taxpayer spends time in Thailand, becomes tax resident and spends money here, derived from a potential variety of sources.

 

2 - The Taxpayer self determines whether the money that was spent is assessable and either files a tax return and reports the income or decides it isn't necessary.

 

3 - The TRD examines data from a variety of in country and potentially overseas sources and initiates investigations based on what it sees.

 

Nowhere in the above is a step that eliminates income because it's too difficult to determine if funds are assessable or not. Nowhere in the above is a step that eliminates funds or people just because TRD can't immediately see all the detailed information they might want or need.

 

If the TRD wants further information about a particular taxpayers return or spending patterns/habits, using ANY funds remittance mechanism, cash, TT, debit card, credit card etc etc, the TRD will tell the taxpayer to supply that information. If the taxpayer refuses or cannot, and the TRD suspects even loosely that funds have been remitted that were assessable and they were not declared, an estimated tax liability will be presented to the taxpayer, based on what the TRD sees and thinks.   If the TRD believes that Bernie from Bolton has been living in Pattaya year round, paying all his expenses using his UK Barclaycard and TRD has evidence to support some of that, Bernie will get a bill. If Bernie has a problem with that and thinks the TRD is incorrect, there are tax tribunals and appeals processes for Bernie to use to convince the TRD of the error of their ways and prove the funds used to pay the CC bill, were not tax assessable.

 

Now, has any of the above ever happened....dunno, nobody on AN knows the answer, they can only guess. Will the above ever happen? Of course it will, the choice of remittance  mechanism doesn't change the assessability of a remittance although some will believe it does and will try to take advantage. Will people self declare credit card transactions on a tax returns?  Who knows, again, we can only guess and assume.

 

 

 

 

It is not that simple and this was pointed out to you several times. Accounting method is one of the open questions. For whatever reason you want to see everything simple and clear but it is not and you are not willing or able to answer a simple question of accounting method that is paramount to the calculation of the due income tax and the decission to stay in TH at all (for some).

 

If you really believe you stand a fair chance in a thai tax tribunal then I do not know what to say.

 

 

 

I