Ukraine ... Enlighten yourself

[couchpotato]

5 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

This post is almost 100 per cent wrong in everything.

 

Literally almost every sentence is dripping with ignorance and ill-informed nonsense.

 

One would correct it, but it would take so long.

If you are going to write that the post is almost 100% wrong, then you should back up your comments with facts to dispute the post, or your interpretation. If you don't, then the ignorance belongs with you.

[Cameroni]

2 minutes ago, couchpotato said:

If you are going to write that the post is almost 100% wrong, then you should back up your comments with facts to dispute the post, or your interpretation. If you don't, then the ignorance belongs with you.

 

I really can't be bothered, it's just total nonsense.

[Cameroni]

9 hours ago, rickudon said:

Although there is no black and white as to who was lied too and who is right and who is wrong in the Ukraine war,

 

What are you talking about, there is a massive trail of statements by the West going back to 1989 where the West lies to Russia that it would not expand NATO. Russia repeatedly tells the West clearly that it feels threatened by NATO expansion and that Ukraine joining NATO is a red line, that it concerns their national security.  In 2008 at the Bucharest conference NATO reveals Ukraine will become a member. So it was, very clearly, the West that lied to Russia. 

 

10 hours ago, rickudon said:

There was very little negotiation,

 

There have been endless rounds of negotiation with Ukraine. When Ukraine tried to stiff Russia over gas, before that the Russo - Ukrainian friendship Treaty, endless rounds from 2014 to 2022.

 

https://www.declassifieduk.org/lets-just-fight-how-britain-prefers-war-over-peace-in-ukraine/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

 

Of course it's very hard to negotiate when the British prime minister flies in and tells Ukraine "Don't sign, if you do the West will not support Ukraine. We will send you billions and arms, let's just fight".

 

Though of course, it was a miracle that Russia would negotiate at all, since Ukraine had repeatedly ignored the  provisions of any treaty with Russia it agreed to and taken military and  other steps, such as banning Russian social media in Ukraine, to provoke Russians in Ukraine.

 

10 hours ago, rickudon said:

and then a Russian invasion of Crimea and fomenting of an insurrection in the Donbass

 

Russia did not "forment" any insurrection in the Donbass, the civil unrest in the majority Russian Donbass region was a result of the pro West demonstrations in the Western parts of Ukraine, which were gainst the interests of the Russian majority in Donbass. And of course the Crimean invasion was the result of the NATO disclosure in 2008 that Ukraine would join NATO, and the constant provocations of Russia by Ukraine before that, not paying their gas bill, prohibiting Russian websites and social media, etc.

 

10 hours ago, rickudon said:

But the Donbass? Just pure greed.

 

The Donbass is 90% Russian, Kiev had neglected the region so badly that they voted to rejoin the CIS again for the Russian language to be the main language, 90% voted in favour of this. The people of the Donbass wanted to rid themselves of the neglectful and incompetent Ukrainian government.

 

10 hours ago, rickudon said:

Economically, Russia is suffering. It is diverting a large percentage of its GDP to a war economy, but  there military-industrial complex is in disarray, due to corruption, lack of maintenance and sanctions. They are unable to replace many of the weapons they loose; without the help of North Korea, Iran and China, they would be short of ammunition and drones. At current rates of expenditure of weapons, Russia will only have infantry left in 2 years.

 

This is total nonsense on stilts, the Russian economy is NOT a war economy, it is very much a majority civil economy at the moment and the Russian economy is blooming at the moment.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68823399

 

If you are so completely ignorant on basically everything, rickudon, it would be better you don't comment on things you have no information or  do not understand at all.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 10/8/2024 at 5:44 AM, rickudon said:

As to Russia's standing in the world, it may be abysmal in the west, but the rest of the world doesn't care - like China, there help comes without lectures on Democracy, corruption and human rights. The west, and particularly USA and France, are loosing ground in Africa, because they find it insulting to be lectured too and treated like naughty children. They also see that israel can do no wrong in western eyes, even though they have caused chaos for over 50 years in the middle east.

 

The second half of this century will be very different, just in what way it is hard to say, but not looking good.

As to Russia's standing in the world, it may be abysmal in the west,

 

IMO only to those that support giving all the money to Ukraine and not using it for local people instead.

 

They also see that israel can do no wrong in western eyes, even though they have caused chaos for over 50 years in the middle east.

Ain't that the truth?

 

[BarraMarra]

What a load of crap anyone that launches Missiles into Shopping centers, hospitals, deliberately targeting civilians in apartment blocks infrastructure needs to be stopped at all costs, and before the bleaters come online saying Israel is doing the same as Putin like it or not there targeting areas Hamas are firing Rockets from, civilian areas using there own people as human shields stock piling weapons under hospitals and Mosques and finally the hundred so hostages that remain. They are already dead or will be killed once there use is not needed.   

[Cameroni]

4 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

What a load of crap anyone that launches Missiles into Shopping centers, hospitals, deliberately targeting civilians in apartment blocks infrastructure needs to be stopped at all costs, and before the bleaters come online saying Israel is doing the same as Putin like it or not there targeting areas Hamas are firing Rockets from, civilian areas using there own people as human shields stock piling weapons under hospitals and Mosques and finally the hundred so hostages that remain. They are already dead or will be killed once there use is not needed.   

 

No. That's wrong. And a juvenile approach.

 

Clearly they do not have to be stopped at ALL cost, if the cost is a nuclear war that would destroy the whole planet, then that cost is too high.

 

 

 

[BarraMarra]

Pathetic there will be no Nukes. People like you would hold your hands up and surrender, People like my late father stood up to a bully called Hitler. You do not appease tyrants. Remember the Village in Iraq Saddam Gassed men woman and kids and you want to allow these tyrants Camaroni ?

[rickudon]

Cameroni, if you think Russia is justified in invading Ukraine, murdering civilians and killing Ukrainian POWs, threatening nuclear war, suggest you go back and fight for Russia. Wonderful human rights for those mobiks sent to the meat grinder.

[Cameroni]

4 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

Pathetic there will be no Nukes. People like you would hold your hands up and surrender, People like my late father stood up to a bully called Hitler. You do not appease tyrants. Remember the Village in Iraq Saddam Gassed men woman and kids and you want to allow these tyrants Camaroni ?

 

No your later father didn't stand up to Hitler, it was the Russians that stood up to Hitler and stopped him. This worn out narrative that everyone we don't like is a Hitler and if you negotiate you're Chamberlain, blah blah blah, it's a Clown from the past. Just like Saddam was supposedly Hitler and had Weapons of mass destruction, all lies, instigated by NeoCons who wanted a war for their ends. Pathetic are people like you who buy into this nonsense. So that hundreds of thousands of women and children die, for nothing.

[Cameroni]

41 minutes ago, rickudon said:

Cameroni, if you think Russia is justified in invading Ukraine, murdering civilians and killing Ukrainian POWs, threatening nuclear war, suggest you go back and fight for Russia. Wonderful human rights for those mobiks sent to the meat grinder.

 

Of course Russia is justified to invade the Ukraine, the Ukraine issue threatened Russia's national security. Civilians and POWs are sacrosanct. Just as the Ukrainians who committed war crimes in Russia should be punished for it, so should those Russians responsible for such crimes. However, you can take your suggetions and stick them where the sun don't shine.

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Cameroni said:

 

No your later father didn't stand up to Hitler, it was the Russians that stood up to Hitler and stopped him.

 

The inference being that no one but Russia opposed Nazi Germany? If so, that is an insult to all those non-Russians who fought for the allies during WW2.

 

And no, I am not trying to downplay the contribution and sacrifice made by the Russian people in WW2; I'll willingly acknowledge that. I am pointing out the indisputable fact that others played their full part as well.

[Cameroni]

1 minute ago, RayC said:

 

The inference being that no one but Russia opposed Nazi Germany? If so, that is an insult to all those non-Russians who fought for the allies during WW2.

 

And no, I am not trying to downplay the contribution and sacrifice made by the Russian people in WW2; I'll willingly acknowledge that. I am pointing out the indisputable fact that others played their full part as well.

 

The Wehrmacht was defeated by one army, and one army alone. The Russian Army.

 

Without his granddad Russia would still have defeated the Wehrmacht. Without the Russian army his granddad and him would now be speaking German.

[BarraMarra]

you don't deserve an answer im not playing your games Cameroni.

[Cameroni]

3 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

you don't deserve an answer im not playing your games Cameroni.

 

Up to you.

 

What game though? I am completely serious. Without your granddad the Russian army would still have defeated the Wehrmacht. Your granddad played a bit part. The Russian army played the central role.

[RayC]

6 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

The Wehrmacht was defeated by one army, and one army alone. The Russian Army.

 

Without his granddad Russia would still have defeated the Wehrmacht. Without the Russian army his granddad and him would now be speaking German.

 

Absolutely and utter nonsense and an insult to many brave men and women.

 

Unlike you, I won't downplay the contribution by any of those brave individuals who fought against Nazism irrespective of their nationality, I'll merely ask where was the Russian army in 1939 - 41? Rhetorical question: Answer is they were in cahoots with the Wehrmacht and were busy carving up Poland. 

 

Russia's role in the fight against Nazism from mid-1941 onwards should not be under-estimated or forgotten, but then neither should her previous collusion with the Nazis.

[Cameroni]

3 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Absolutely and utter nonsense and an insult to many brave men and women.

 

Unlike you, I won't downplay the contribution by any of those brave individuals who fought against Nazism irrespective of their nationality, I'll merely ask where was the Russian army in 1939 - 41? Rhetorical question: Answer is they were in cahoots with the Wehrmacht and were busy carving up Poland. 

 

Russia's role in the fight against Nazism from mid-1941 onwards should not be under-estimated or forgotten, but then neither should her previous collusion with the Nazis.

 

Anyone who claims any army other than the Russian army defeated the Wehrmacht is talking utter and absolute nonsense.

 

That's not an "insult" to anyone, that is just stating realistic facts.

[RayC]

5 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Anyone who claims any army other than the Russian army defeated the Wehrmacht is talking utter and absolute nonsense.

 

That's not an "insult" to anyone, that is just stating realistic facts.

 

It is an insult to all those who fell or suffered at the hands of the Nazis. Their nationality is irrelevant.

 

As usual, you completely ignore pertinent facts. The UK and Commonwealth forces  stood alone (as nations) against Nazi Germany in 1940/41. If the UK had been defeated during this period, things may well have turned out a lot differently for Russia.

 

Not that I expect you to acknowledge that possibility.

[Cameroni]

5 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

It is an insult to all those who fell or suffered at the hands of the Nazis. Their nationality is irrelevant.

 

As usual, you completely ignore pertinent facts. The UK and Commonwealth forces  stood alone (as nations) against Nazi Germany in 1940/41. If the UK had been defeated during this period, things may well have turned out a lot differently for Russia.

 

Not that I expect you to acknowledge that possibility.

 

No it's not. The UK could have been playing cricket during the whole war and it would have ended the same, with the Russian army defeating the Wehrmacht.

 

Had the UK fallen it would have been irrelevant, since the Soviets massively outstripped the Wehrmacht in tanks, planes and materiel. The Germans just didn't know it because Fremde Heere Ost did shoddy work.

[RayC]

6 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

No it's not. The UK could have been playing cricket during the whole war and it would have ended the same, with the Russian army defeating the Wehrmacht.

 

Had the UK fallen it would have been irrelevant, since the Soviets massively outstripped the Wehrmacht in tanks, planes and materiel. The Germans just didn't know it because Fremde Heere Ost did shoddy work.

 

I'll cut this branch short, as we are now going over the same ground for the umpteenth time which imo is pointless.

 

We have opposing opinions and l strongly suspect that whatever is said by one of us, we are not going to change the other's mind.

[kwonitoy]

1 hour ago, Cameroni said:

 

No it's not. The UK could have been playing cricket during the whole war and it would have ended the same, with the Russian army defeating the Wehrmacht.

 

Had the UK fallen it would have been irrelevant, since the Soviets massively outstripped the Wehrmacht in tanks, planes and materiel. The Germans just didn't know it because Fremde Heere Ost did shoddy work.

 

A LOT of that material came from the good ole USA, enough with the pro russia lies and misinformation.

They didn't "win" WW2

Just because you serial post lies and repeat them does not make them true

 

Could Russia have won WWII without the US?

Nikita Khrushchev, who led the Soviet Union from 1953 to 1964, agreed with Stalin's assessment. In his memoirs, Khrushchev described how Stalin stressed the value of Lend-Lease aid: “He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war.”May 2, 2023

 

Did the US Lend-Lease to Russia in WW2?

 

 

 

Lend Lease to the Soviet Union. Assisting the Soviet war effort American Lend-Lease eventually transferred over $11 billion dollars of goods to Soviet Russia—roughly the equivalent of $250 billion today.Jul 29, 2024

 

 

 

Would the Soviet Union have lost without lend lease?

Stalin said himself that if it wasn't for lend lease, the Soviets would have lost. Khrushchev and Zhukov said the same thing about lend lease. It took a combined effort to beat the Axis powers, no one nation could do it alone.Mar 21, 2024

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cameroni]

27 minutes ago, kwonitoy said:

 

A LOT of that material came from the good ole USA, enough with the pro russia lies and misinformation.

They didn't "win" WW2

Just because you serial post lies and repeat them does not make them true

 

Could Russia have won WWII without the US?

Nikita Khrushchev, who led the Soviet Union from 1953 to 1964, agreed with Stalin's assessment. In his memoirs, Khrushchev described how Stalin stressed the value of Lend-Lease aid: “He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war.”May 2, 2023

 

Did the US Lend-Lease to Russia in WW2?

 

 

 

Lend Lease to the Soviet Union. Assisting the Soviet war effort American Lend-Lease eventually transferred over $11 billion dollars of goods to Soviet Russia—roughly the equivalent of $250 billion today.Jul 29, 2024

 

 

 

Would the Soviet Union have lost without lend lease?

Stalin said himself that if it wasn't for lend lease, the Soviets would have lost. Khrushchev and Zhukov said the same thing about lend lease. It took a combined effort to beat the Axis powers, no one nation could do it alone.Mar 21, 2024

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We don't need the cigar musings of Uncle Joe, we have the actual figures for Lend lease. We can just look at them.

 

Lend Lease gave Russia 7,000 US tanks, however by themselves the Russians produced 29,569 combat vehicles.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II

 

 

The Russians no more needed US Lend Lease than they needed Barra's granddad.

 

They would have won the war against the Wehrmacht anyway.

 

[MicroB]

7 hours ago, RayC said:

 

The inference being that no one but Russia opposed Nazi Germany? If so, that is an insult to all those non-Russians who fought for the allies during WW2.

 

And no, I am not trying to downplay the contribution and sacrifice made by the Russian people in WW2; I'll willingly acknowledge that. I am pointing out the indisputable fact that others played their full part as well.

 

Technically the Soviet people. Belarus and Ukraine gave much more than Russia fighting the Axis. Putin has always exaggerated Russian losses in WW2. In 2010, he claimed the USSR didn't need Ukraine to win WW2.

 

Quote

We would definitely have won without Ukraine as a member of USSR, because we are the “winner state"

 

It was a Ukrainian who raised the flag over a shatterted Reichstag. Ukraine supplied 70% of Soviet trains, 67% of mining equipment, 60% of coal, 70% of iron, 50% of steel, 59% of steel pipes. The Soviet Navy was constructed in Zaporizhzhia, Kerch, Kyiv, Mykolaiv, Odesa and Kherson. Aircraft were made in Dnipropetrovsk , Kharkiv , Kyiv and Kharkiv. Ukrainian losses accounted for 40% of total Soviet losses, according to the latest research.

 

[BarraMarra]

cameroni is just a wind up merchant and getting off on posters posting just ignore him. I will feed him one last time.  The RAF defeated the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain we certainly never saw Russian planes helping us, and your once mighty Red Army got there Arse kicked in Afghan and ran away beaten by the Taliban on horses.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

cameroni is just a wind up merchant and getting off on posters posting just ignore him. I will feed him one last time.  The RAF defeated the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain we certainly never saw Russian planes helping us, and your once mighty Red Army got there Arse kicked in Afghan and ran away beaten by the Taliban on horses.

Just to inject a bit of realism into it. The Russians destroyed the German military to the point it could be defeated in Europe by the allies, and Britain was essential to provide a port for the Americans to invade Europe and destroy the German military there.

It's possible that without the Americans in Europe, the Soviets could have defeated the Germans in Europe as well, but then the Soviets would have ruled all of Europe that had been ruled by Germany and Italy. I don't think that would have been a good outcome.

 

You might want to read up on the Soviets in Afghanistan, as they were not defeated by the mujahideen ( you seem confused as the taliban did not exist then ) , but Gorbachev decided to leave, which was probably the best decision he made.

[BarraMarra]

Without the Artic convoys supplying Russia at great cost of life Russia would have struggled. 

[Jingthing]

7 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

cameroni is just a wind up merchant and getting off on posters posting just ignore him. I will feed him one last time.  The RAF defeated the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain we certainly never saw Russian planes helping us, and your once mighty Red Army got there Arse kicked in Afghan and ran away beaten by the Taliban on horses.

Agree. The ignore list is your friend.

[thaibreaker]

On 10/4/2024 at 7:31 AM, retarius said:

He is sent expensive equipment like the F16 program, but you never hear of the F16s in action, except when shot down by the Ukrainians.

Try to keep yourself updated, or else this just looks stupid. Only 10 F16s has arrived so far in Ukraine (one shot down by FF), BUT around 45 additional F16s are arriving this winter. The Netherlands, Denmark and Norway are all finished training Ukrainians before end of the year, and they have stated that the rest of the F16s are coming to Ukraine accordingly.

Please keep up.

[BarraMarra]

8 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

Try to keep yourself updated, or else this just looks stupid. Only 10 F16s has arrived so far in Ukraine (one shot down by FF), BUT around 45 additional F16s are arriving this winter. The Netherlands, Denmark and Norway are all finished training Ukrainians before end of the year, and they have stated that the rest of the F16s are coming to Ukraine accordingly.

Please keep up.

I wonder if the people on here who moan about sending Aid to help Ukraine would feel the same if family members were killed as they ate there Big Mac by a Russian missile.

[thaibreaker]

18 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Of course Russia is justified to invade the Ukraine,

You can not be serious. I have read all your posts in the thread, and wow, all your talking points must be straight from Kremlin itself.

 

I live in one of Russia's neighboring countries, and trust me, I know Russians, their mindset and what they are capable of. I have never seen anyone using so many words as you do, and still having no clue about this war. I would be embarrassed.

 

I guess you are American, who has watched a youtube video or two. Try living as a neighbour to Russia your whole life, and you will find out what "fine country" this is. The West or NATO is not responsible for this war. That's a big NO. No freaking way. There is a reason countries in Eastern Europe apply for membership of NATO, that is because they are afraid of Russia, and need security. Because of Russian aggression. Finland and Sweden are now members, and Russia can thank themselves for that.

 

This war has only one aggressor and evil side, and that is Russia.

They lost Ukraine in 1991, new international borders were drawn and accepted by the EU, Russia need to live with it, like any other country.

[BarraMarra]

Your just feeding him Thaibreaker. Yesterday he was hoping for a bite on a thread he started telling us all about his beautiful thai girlfriend who passed on a dose to him.