Expats in Thailand urged not to worry about negative income tax

[Yumthai]

10 hours ago, chiang mai said:

If the average wage is 15k per month, most married couples have enough in exemptions and deductions to qualify to not file  return.

This average wage surely does not include informal income.

I doubt most Thai people have precisely calculated their tax liability to figure out they don't need to file a tax return.

[Presnock]

23 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

So what? Could, should, would... Another example of pure speculation. If you are worried about this, I encourage you to hold your breath. And since expats aren't Thai citizens this NIT story is irrelevant.  Next.

Dep finance minister specifically mentioned that expats and other foreigners would be included in the tax base.  It may not mean expats would definitely pay any more tax but would have to do more paperwork for the Thai Revenue dept.  I am not worried at all about ever having tp pay any income tax here, just interested in the subject as it does affect me in adhering to the tax laws about filing.

[Presnock]

23 hours ago, kuzmabruk said:

Many of you are talking about the new tax laws, which have nothing to do with NIT.

But I thought I would share some Thai tax laws with you, for those who are planning to not file their tax return next March or fudge the numbers on their Thai tax return.  I am working with two of the largest tax accountants in Thailand (still undecided as to who will be my accountant) and they advise, file your tax return or possibly pay some large and painful penalties, as shown below.

 

1. Late Filing Penalty - 1,000 to 2,000 THB

 

2. Late Payment Penalty - penalty of 1.5% of unpaid taxes per month until paid - max 100%, possible for an additional penalty of up to 20% of the outstanding tax amount.

 

3. Failure to File Penalty - fine of up to 200% of the unpaid tax if it’s determined that the failure to file was intentional or involved fraud or evasion.

 

4. Additional Penalties - If they find that you have under-reported your income, they may impose penalties ranging from 100% to 200% of the unreported income.

 

5. Tax Evasion: Deliberate tax evasion or fraud can result in criminal charges, which may include imprisonment, fines, or both.

 

Yesd, as of yet they have not changed the laws on submitting tax forms for EVERY TAX RESIDENT, it still says if one has assessable income.  But according to the dep finance minister the NIT would encompass ALL adults in Thailand including expats and other foreigners and that every tax resident would be REQUIRED to file the 91 tax form!  At the very least, additional paperwork for some of us.

[Presnock]

22 hours ago, black tabby12345 said:

 

Truly.

I found that article is totally Pointless & Nonsense itself.

 

Read the take on the dep finance minister's interview on the NIT and he specifically mentions that they want to get ALL adults including expats in the tax base and that ALL ADULTS would be required to file the income tax form 91.  I am not expert whatsoever on tax situations other than my own - I realize I won't have to pay any tax here unless treaties are broken and laws changed except even so it sure means more paperwork every year for nothing.

[Presnock]

20 hours ago, newnative said:

  Yet another totally misleading and inaccurate headline designed, I imagine, solely to get AN readers to click on this time-wasting, utterly irrelevant article.  

read the Thai examiner article on the same guy's interview about this subject - he specifically mentions that expats are included in the NIT plan.

[Dionigi]

9 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

There is a huge difference between a legal and transparent payment, and something that's paid entirely off the books in cash, is not only illegal but downright corrupt, and extremely corrosive to society. 

You actually believe that politicians are worth 250,000 pounds for a six minute talk or is it just another method of payment for services rendered in the past when they had the influence to help out and they are ensuring that they are not caught for taking bribes. As I said more advance counties have just learned how to handle their dirty deals with what is appears legal.

[chiang mai]

8 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

This average wage surely does not include informal income.

I doubt most Thai people have precisely calculated their tax liability to figure out they don't need to file a tax return.

Indeed the average wage calculation does not include informal earnings, which can only be estimated or guessed at, on a case by case basis.

 

I also doubt most Thai's have calculated their tax liabilities each year to determine whether or not they must file a tax return. 

 

But, what I wrote was, "IF the average wage is 15k per month, most married couples have enough in exemptions and deductions to qualify to not file  return", which remains true.

 

A very rough calculation suggests that if the value of informal earnings was included in the average monthly wage, this would boost the official figure by around 100%. BUT, the majority of informal earnings involves farmers and agricultural worker who earn half of their counterparts in the formal sector (see below). This means the majority of informal workers would still be under the tax filing threshold and wouldn't need to file a return.

 

(Average monthly earnings is based on the 38 million people in the work force, this excludes very young, very old, sick etc. 38 million multiplied by 15k a month gives us THB 570 bill/USD 16.75 bill.  or THB 6.85 trill. pa).

 

The size of Thailand's informal economy is estimated to be 48.4% of GDP (THB18.7 trill.) or 

Please credit and share this article with others using this link: https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2745121/call-for-better-integration-of-the-informal-economy. View our policies at http://goo.gl/9HgTd and http://goo.gl/ou6Ip. © Bangkok Post PCL. All rights reserved.

 

More than half of informal workers, 55.4%, are in the agricultural sector, earning nearly two times lower than their counterparts in the formal sector.

Please credit and share this article with others using this link: https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2708701/over-half-of-thai-workers-in-informal-sector. View our policies at http://goo.gl/9HgTd and http://goo.gl/ou6Ip. © Bangkok Post PCL. All rights reserved.

 

[john donson]

corruption, from top to bottom...why not go after the criminals, impound to the last satang they own, would be a good start...

 

if you never pay tax, you should not expect anything in return

 

education helped some nations a generation or two later, like singapore

 

[Presnock]

I find ir especially strange that the 15 Oct interview write up in the ThaI Examiner has now been altered to remove "expats" while retaining "foreigners".  If I wasn't so old, I might seek out why this was done, as they had ti in thre yesterday but now it is gone and now that interview is in each of the categories.  Guess someone complained?  

[Cabradelmar]

15 hours ago, chiang mai said:

If the average wage is 15k per month, most married couples have enough in exemptions and deductions to qualify to not file  return.

Good point. But if only 11% pay taxes, that's 89% that don't... And the majority of that 89% can't be because they don't make enought (are in poverty , etc.) to not have to file. Seems any way you cut it, a lot of Thais "get away with" not paying PI. 

[Yumthai]

4 hours ago, john donson said:

education helped some nations a generation or two later, like singapore

If you want your population to remain servile and obedient, it makes sense not to give them the opportunity to increase their education level too much. Meanwhile your fellows have access to premium international schooling.

[mrfill]

On 10/17/2024 at 10:00 PM, webfact said:

every Thai citizen earning even a minimal amount must register with the Thai Revenue Department and submit annual tax returns. This would bring into the fold many low-income workers, like street vendors and massage therapists, who currently exist outside formal taxation.

So the poor people will have to pay income tax, with the promise of a possibility that they might get some back.

 

Sounds like a plan to get the poor to subsidise the rich - which would bring Thailand into the 21st cenury.

[MartinBangkok]

On 10/18/2024 at 7:59 AM, mfd101 said:

You'ld have to be a NITwit to think there'll be any benefit for expats out of such a scheme.

 

And will my aged PILs - illiterate & without income beyond what I give them - have to register? They wouldn't know the meanings of the words.

 

As for the appalling corruption at every level of government and society, much of it would disappear if bureaucrats were actually paid a liveable salary ...

What is a PILs??

In my native language, "pils" means beer.

[MartinBangkok]

On 10/18/2024 at 9:45 AM, chiang mai said:

That's not what the statistics suggest.

 

 

Statista get their numbers from Thai sources. Need I say more?

[chiang mai]

8 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

Statista get their numbers from Thai sources. Need I say more?

ALL statistics on almost everything come from Thai sources, out of necessity. But if you don't trust the central bank, there's no point in even discussing things.

[MartinBangkok]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

ALL statistics on almost everything come from Thai sources, out of necessity. But if you don't trust the central bank, there's no point in even discussing things.

Try reading Chartchai Parasuk's columns in a well known newspaper.

[Digitalbanana]

Negative income tax? So they pay us?

[chiang mai]

30 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

Try reading Chartchai Parasuk's columns in a well known newspaper.

I read Chartchai in the Bangkok Post regularly.

[mfd101]

2 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

What is a PILs??

In my native language, "pils" means beer.

Parents-in law

[metisdead]

A troll post has been removed. 

[daejung]

On 10/18/2024 at 12:34 AM, bigt3116 said:

This will be for Thai nationals only, so why on earth would any expat worry?

 

This really is a non-news item.

And why worrying if it's negative unless I misunderstood something ?

[scorecard]

On 10/18/2024 at 5:44 AM, dinsdale said:

Paid for positions are part of the endemically corrupt system. Just as an example there is not one director of any school in Thailand that has not paid to get their position. The higher status the school the higher the price paid. Said paid money is then got back through high wages and corruption.

 

Further, this means that there's many people occupying minister positions, very senior operational positions and positions at all levels who have little or no knowledge, and no capability or valuable experience in that position / subject.

 

Further, this also means there's much less chance of innovation or serious valuable improvements.

 

All of this is the reverse in Singapore; the very best people occupy all the ministerial positions and the senior positions in ministries and the positive results are obvious.  

 

Re Thailand the most obvious negative example is the PM, she has no capability and it shows; she's lost. Thailand suffers. 

[tgw]

On 10/18/2024 at 12:34 AM, bigt3116 said:

This will be for Thai nationals only, so why on earth would any expat worry?

 

This really is a non-news item.

 

I would view such a development as a major threat to Thailand as a country of residence and of retirement.

• Firstly, the handouts would have to come from somewhere, and together with the plans for taxation of expats, it's not hard to see why this is a threat.
• More taxation of Thais and Thai businesses will cause prices to rise, so living costs will rise too.
• This type of handout will also cause work to become less attractive, so wages will need to go up, which will cause both unemployment and rise of prices.
• Because of the above, some services will become unavailable or expensive.

It's the first step of a recipe for disaster, really.

 

 

Edited October 20 by tgw

[JackGats]

"Negative income tax". Is that meant to be English? If it is wouldn't it mean you get money back from the tax man?

[oldcpu]

27 minutes ago, JackGats said:

"Negative income tax". Is that meant to be English? If it is wouldn't it mean you get money back from the tax man?

 

Yes possibly - but I suspect only those Thai adults whose income is VERY VERY small would get money back from the tax man (ie not everyone gets 'negative income tax' )  ... and the remainder of the adults in Thailand would then need to pay more tax in order to fund the negative income tax so to pay money to those who are very poor. ...

 

I could be wrong - but that is my interpretation.

[scorecard]

On 10/20/2024 at 8:38 PM, tgw said:

 

I would view such a development as a major threat to Thailand as a country of residence and of retirement.

• Firstly, the handouts would have to come from somewhere, and together with the plans for taxation of expats, it's not hard to see why this is a threat.
• More taxation of Thais and Thai businesses will cause prices to rise, so living costs will rise too.
• This type of handout will also cause work to become less attractive, so wages will need to go up, which will cause both unemployment and rise of prices.
• Because of the above, some services will become unavailable or expensive.

It's the first step of a recipe for disaster, really.

 

 

 

 

Quote from above:

 

"This will be for Thai nationals only, so why on earth would any expat worry?

 

This really is a non-news item."resident and non-resident".

 

Keep in mind that many resident and non=resident farang have Thai families and many will be thinking about the best possible future for their wives and their children. 

 

Meaning, hopefully, that some / many much more capable Thais eventually (tomorrow) get into senior positions and develop / implement policies and actions which make the foundations of valuable developments and improvements. Perhaps the first item is everything to do with much better education,  student centered / analytical, etc.

 

My Thai son and his Thai wife (4 kids) talk about this all the time and it means a great deal to me too. 

[tgw]

6 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

 

Quote from above:

 

"This will be for Thai nationals only, so why on earth would any expat worry?

 

This really is a non-news item."resident and non-resident".

 

Keep in mind that many resident and non=resident farang have Thai families and many will be thinking about the best possible future for their wives and their children. 

 

Meaning, hopefully, that some / many much more capable Thais eventually (tomorrow) get into senior positions and develop / implement policies and actions which make the foundations of valuable developments and improvements. Perhaps the first item is everything to do with much better education,  student centered / analytical, etc.

 

My Thai son and his Thai wife (4 kids) talk about this all the time and it means a great deal to me too. 

 

Making cheap labour unattractive to workers isn't the way to go IMO. It will just cause the middle class to not be able to afford some things anymore, and then it will spiral.

[chiang mai]

On 10/19/2024 at 6:25 PM, MartinBangkok said:

Try reading Chartchai Parasuk's columns in a well known newspaper.

I was reading some back issues of Chartchai's columns, which made ,me think of Jeremy Warner in the UK. Jeremy  is a brilliant economist and superbly educated but he's an out and out pessimist, his glass is never half full.

 

Chartchai is very similar in that respect. 

 

https://www.chartwellspeakers.com/speaker/jeremy-warner/

[MartinBangkok]

13 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I was reading some back issues of Chartchai's columns, which made ,me think of Jeremy Warner in the UK. Jeremy  is a brilliant economist and superbly educated but he's an out and out pessimist, his glass is never half full.

 

Chartchai is very similar in that respect. 

 

https://www.chartwellspeakers.com/speaker/jeremy-warner/

The problem with economics is it's not an exact science.

 

Anyway, Chartchai, has a lot of balls, being a Thai, to speak out like he does. Must be quite a few elite-Thais in the mafia-gang that rules this country, being pissed off.

[EVENKEEL]

On 10/17/2024 at 5:40 PM, kuzmabruk said:

Many of you are talking about the new tax laws, which have nothing to do with NIT.

But I thought I would share some Thai tax laws with you, for those who are planning to not file their tax return next March or fudge the numbers on their Thai tax return.  I am working with two of the largest tax accountants in Thailand (still undecided as to who will be my accountant) and they advise, file your tax return or possibly pay some large and painful penalties, as shown below.

 

1. Late Filing Penalty - 1,000 to 2,000 THB

 

2. Late Payment Penalty - penalty of 1.5% of unpaid taxes per month until paid - max 100%, possible for an additional penalty of up to 20% of the outstanding tax amount.

 

3. Failure to File Penalty - fine of up to 200% of the unpaid tax if it’s determined that the failure to file was intentional or involved fraud or evasion.

 

4. Additional Penalties - If they find that you have under-reported your income, they may impose penalties ranging from 100% to 200% of the unreported income.

 

5. Tax Evasion: Deliberate tax evasion or fraud can result in criminal charges, which may include imprisonment, fines, or both.

 

Tell your tax boys to stuff it.